Salvation of those without contact?

[OttomanScribe]

A friend of mine went to study Islamic theology and law in Mauritania (a country in North Africa) and he was surprised in his travels to come upon a village that thought the world was Muslim. They spoke about the Christians, Jews and pagans as though they were an extinct species, unable to comprehend that anyone would be non-Muslim.

How would Christian theology view such individuals? Are they held to the morals of their society? Or still obligated to believe in a concept of God that they have no knowledge of?

Thanks in advance, peace.

 

[drich0150]

How would Christian theology view such individuals? Are they held to the morals of their society? Or still obligated to believe in a concept of God that they have no knowledge of?

We are told that Jesus is The Word of God in John 1

In Hebrews 4 we are told:
12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

So it is not up to the christian to decide what is to happen to these people, but up to the most righteous and high God.

 

[OttomanScribe]

So it is not up to the Christian to decide what is to happen to these people, but up to the most righteous and high God.

A good answer and true. My thanks.

We are told that Jesus is The Word of God in John 1

Considering a question on this later on. Christian theology fascinates me. My Sheikh (religious teacher) has given me many book recommendations on it. To be honest the Eastern versions appeal to me more.

 

[Standing Up]

A friend of mine went to study Islamic theology and law in Mauritania (a country in North Africa) and he was surprised in his travels to come upon a village that thought the world was Muslim. They spoke about the Christians, Jews and pagans as though they were an extinct species, unable to comprehend that anyone would be non-Muslim.

How would Christian theology view such individuals? Are they held to the morals of their society? Or still obligated to believe in a concept of God that they have no knowledge of?

Thanks in advance, peace.

There's a few different answers depending on which type of Christian responds.

One would think they're bound for hell. Another would think they'll have a chance to hear and respond. Another would think all paths eventually lead to God.

 

[aiki]

A friend of mine went to study Islamic theology and law in Mauritania (a country in North Africa) and he was surprised in his travels to come upon a village that thought the world was Muslim. They spoke about the Christians, Jews and pagans as though they were an extinct species, unable to comprehend that anyone would be non-Muslim.

How would Christian theology view such individuals? Are they held to the morals of their society? Or still obligated to believe in a concept of God that they have no knowledge of?

Thanks in advance, peace.

How are they viewed by Christians? They are lost, unsaved, in need of a new spiritual birth through faith in Christ as Lord and Saviour.

Held to whose morals? Those of Christians?

As the Bible says, "How can they believe in one in whom they have not heard?" Nonetheless, God will still judge these people according to what light they had. Ignorance will not be a defense against God's wrath at the Final Judgment. God has imparted a general revelation of Himself to all of mankind in Creation, but those who don't respond to that revelation positively by seeking the truth about the Creator in the special revelation given to us through Jesus Christ will be condemned. The first chapter of the apostle Paul's letter to the Romans explains this fairly clearly.

Peace.

 

[OttomanScribe]

How are they viewed by Christians? They are lost, unsaved, in need of a new spiritual birth through faith in Christ as Lord and Saviour.

Held to whose morals? Those of Christians?

As the Bible says, "How can they believe in one in whom they have not heard?" Nonetheless, God will still judge these people according to what light they had. Ignorance will not be a defense against God's wrath at the Final Judgment. God has imparted a general revelation of Himself to all of mankind in Creation, but those who don't respond to that revelation positively by seeking the truth about the Creator in the special revelation given to us through Jesus Christ will be condemned. The first chapter of the apostle Paul's letter to the Romans explains this fairly clearly.

Peace.

So, judged by 'what light they had', would essentially be the same as the Muslim position? Would they then be judged along the lines of the morality they are in contact with, the conception of God expressed in Islam? Would they be judged as Muslims, just as we believe ignorant Christians are judged as Christians?

One would think they're bound for hell. Another would think they'll have a chance to hear and respond. Another would think all paths eventually lead to God.

From where does this difference stem?

 

[Lukaris]

I know as an Orthodox Christian I am allowed to understand that Christians are saved by our repentance to and faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and savior and to strive to follow His commands as expressed in our works.We can have confidence but not assume our own salvation (Matthew 7:21-23) so as to obey our Lord's commands to love our neighbor and hope for their salvation. Those who are not Christians will be judged by their works; some are saved and some are not (St. Paul explains this in Romans 2 esp vs. 11-16 & according to the sovereignty of God as noted in Romans 9:14-18 (His determination of whom He will have mercy on). The Lord's teaching of the Beatitudes (Matthew 5:1-12) show those He calls blessed (the final Beatitude is soley reserved for Christians).

 

[Standing Up]

From where does this difference stem?

Good question, and your answer may be indirectly traced by your word choice; that is, stem. Sorry to be unclear, but I intended only to give an overview of certain views that you might hear.

 

[aiki]

So, judged by 'what light they had', would essentially be the same as the Muslim position? Would they then be judged along the lines of the morality they are in contact with, the conception of God expressed in Islam? Would they be judged as Muslims, just as we believe ignorant Christians are judged as Christians?

Not exactly. Anyone who does not express faith in Christ as their Saviour and Lord will be condemned.

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other (only in Jesus Christ), for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
(Bracketed words mine).

Some have suggested that the following passage indicates that the punishment of those ignorant of the gospel may be less, however.

Luke 12:47-48
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required...

God will not be judging Muslims as Muslims but as those who knew something of Jesus but denied his deity and his role as Saviour to them. Unlike those in the passage above who "knew not," Muslims can't claim utter ignorance of Jesus Christ.

Peace.

 

[talitha]

I have an acquaintence who is a missionary in Mauritania. Well, he is on a somewhat forced sabbatical at the moment because the persecution of Christians is so great there that his organization pulled him for a little while.

As Christians we are commanded to spread out and go everywhere and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to everyone. It is our duty. Not to extend the Light to the dark places like Mauritania would be wrong.

According to the Bible, God (the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) is the Light.... Islam is not "the light they have" in that village you mentioned. Whatever knowledge of God's truth revealed in His Son Jesus Christ - however small that knowledge is, that is "the light they have."

blessings in Him
tal

 

[Coralie]

Hi OttomanScribe.

In Eastern Orthodoxy, we believe God is the only perfect Judge, the only ideal balance of Justice and Mercy, and that to judge the salvation of a human being ourselves is grievously prideful.

In the case of the Mauritanian village you reference, the Orthodox position would be that every individual villager would be judged entirely on his/her own merits--as others have said, according to the Light they were shown, and how they responded to it.

But ultimately, we feel that God is the Judge of that situation and we submit to His will in all things. As we say in our daily prayers, "I know that Thou doest as Thou wilt; Thy will be done in all things, and in me, a sinner."

If you're interested in talking more to Eastern Christians, feel free to come hang out with us at The Ancient Way. We're always happy to discuss questions from interested people.

There's also a debate section where you can debate Eastern Orthodox Christians on whatever issues take your fancy. You don't have to be a Christian to debate there, and you certainly don't need to be a Christian to hang out with us

 

[Emmy]

Dear Ottoman Scribe. I say this humbly and with love, you obviously do not know how much God loves us, and how much He cares for us. Most likely there will be Missionaries, and if there are none, God will provide. God is Love and Forgiveness, and God is a Righteous God. Also God is all - powerful, somehow God will make sure that ALL have heard, and all know about Jesus, our Saviour. He died that we might live, He will lead us back to God. And God wants us to love Him with all our being, and love each other as we love ourselves. Those Moslems you mention, Ottoman Scribe, will hear from somewhere that Love is the most important character-trait we need to return to God, and God has ways and means to let everybody know. God made us in His image and God wants us back again, ONLY those who do not want God`s Love, will end up without God`s Love or Light, in Outer Darkness. But they decide for themselves, we all have free will. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Van]

This question - but what about good folks who have never heard of Jesus - is asked and asked and asked. And the answer is ignored and ignored and ignored.

Jesus said no one comes to the Father except through me. Anyone who says they represent the Christian view and denies this verse is a fraud. So all the "good" people will not reach "Allah" according to Christianity.

On the other hand, will they be tormented in "hell" forever and ever as some Christians believe? Nope. The Bible says you either get justice or you get mercy. Since the only way to get mercy is through Christ, all those in the village will get justice, no more and no less. They will be punished based on their misdeeds, which were thoughts and acts they knew were wrong.

So the bottom line is be the best you can be and store up the minimum amount of wrath. The old saying is true, you cannot work your way to heaven, but you can dig yourself a deeper pit in hell.

May God Bless

 

[OttomanScribe]

God will not be judging Muslims as Muslims but as those who knew something of Jesus but denied his deity and his role as Saviour to them. Unlike those in the passage above who "knew not," Muslims can't claim utter ignorance of Jesus Christ.

We know him not as Jesus Christ, the Son of God, but as Esa bin Maryam (Jesus, son of Mary (as). We know him not as the son of God, but as a righteous Prophet and Messenger to the people. We know the Christians as people of revelation, whom, through later misguidance have lost their way. In that context, do you consider we know Jesus as you know him?

Peace.

Wa'Alaykum (and upon you)

As Christians we are commanded to spread out and go everywhere and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to everyone. It is our duty. Not to extend the Light to the dark places like Mauritania would be wrong.

While your compulsion to spread the word must be taken into account, it does not discount that that village may never be reached by your missionary, or he may reach them and be dismissed as an insane man-worshipper (something some Muslims know Christians as). In this case my question remains.

blessings in Him

For he conveys the word of God to those in dire need.

Coralie, I may just follow you there. I don't seek debate though, I just find our common ground interesting. My optometrist is Greek Orthodox, and he said to me 'better the Turban than the Pontiff' I look forward to getting my eyes tested because he has two things I find lacking in both of our brethren, sagacity and adhab (manners).

What you describe is, fairly broadly, the same position as the Sha'riah.

Dear Ottoman Scribe. I say this humbly and with love, you obviously do not know how much God loves us, and how much He cares for us. Most likely there will be Missionaries, and if there are none, God will provide. God is Love and Forgiveness, and God is a Righteous God. Also God is all - powerful, somehow God will make sure that ALL have heard, and all know about Jesus, our Saviour. He died that we might live, He will lead us back to God. And God wants us to love Him with all our being, and love each other as we love ourselves. Those Moslems you mention, Ottoman Scribe, will hear from somewhere that Love is the most important character-trait we need to return to God, and God has ways and means to let everybody know. God made us in His image and God wants us back again, ONLY those who do not want God`s Love, will end up without God`s Love or Light, in Outer Darkness. But they decide for themselves, we all have free will. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

Emmy, I return your greetings, may your affairs be in order.
In the word of God, the Holy Qu'ran, Allah rarely describes Himself as 'Wadud' (loving) because, while one of His attributes, it is less used than Rahmen (merciful). For in reality, Allah's love, like His mercy, is not definitive. It is said that while God's mercy is infinite, he is not limited to it. Lets be honest, to some, God is the Judge, the Humiliator, the Debaser, Destroyer, Bringer of Death. For some of us, possibly you or I, are destined for the hellfire. The Hellfire is not a place of love.

I reply in the same tone to which you speak to me, fear God the fear of which He is Most Deserving, and seek refuge in Him, whom is Most High, Oft-Merciful, Effacer of Grief and Lord of the Worlds. The Most Merciful needs not a son to give mercy.

Peace

 

[talitha]

We know him not as Jesus Christ, the Son of God, but as Esa bin Maryam (Jesus, son of Mary (as). We know him not as the son of God, but as a righteous Prophet and Messenger to the people. We know the Christians as people of revelation, whom, through later misguidance have lost their way. In that context, do you consider we know Jesus as you know him?

Absolutely not. Whatever is of the truth, which is only revealed by the Holy Spirit through the risen Jesus Christ and His Gospel, that is what people are held accountable for. For example, if you know that Jesus was slain as a blood-guilt offering and you choose not to accept that for yourself, you are accountable for what you have rejected.

While your compulsion to spread the word must be taken into account, it does not discount that that village may never be reached by your missionary, or he may reach them and be dismissed as an insane man-worshipper (something some Muslims know Christians as). In this case my question remains.

What you asked was,

How would Christian theology view such individuals? Are they held to the morals of their society? Or still obligated to believe in a concept of God that they have no knowledge of?

Christian theology says they have need of a Savior, and that we are obligated to introduce them to Him. Until they are reached, they are under the Law of Moses, as are all who have not accepted Christ, which is something that cannot be fulfilled without the help of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that unless unless our righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees (the most holy men of Jesus' time on earth), we will not enter the kingdom of heaven. And righteousness means whatever is pleasing to God Almighty, Most Holy.

For he conveys the word of God to those in dire need.

Yes, and for whatever reason, He has for the most part entrusted that conveying to human beings. Though Jesus has appeared in dreams and visions to Muslims in unreached areas, and some of them have converted (Praise be unto Him) to Christianity.

For example:
YouTube - Jesus's appearance in dreams altered a Muslim's life - Part1

This is Part One of I think five parts. I'm still watching them. I have seen other testimonies like this one as well.

My optometrist is Greek Orthodox, and he said to me 'better the Turban than the Pontiff'

What tragic blasphemy.

blessings in Jesus
tal

 

[Jpark]

Never mind.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Absolutely not. Whatever is of the truth, which is only revealed by the Holy Spirit through the risen Jesus Christ and His Gospel, that is what people are held accountable for. For example, if you know that Jesus was slain as a blood-guilt offering and you choose not to accept that for yourself, you are accountable for what you have rejected.

So they are not held to the morals of their society, rather they are held by what they have rejected? So if they have rejected nothing, they are held accountable to nothing?

Christian theology says they have need of a Savior, and that we are obligated to introduce them to Him. Until they are reached, they are under the Law of Moses, as are all who have not accepted Christ, which is something that cannot be fulfilled without the help of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that unless unless our righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees (the most holy men of Jesus' time on earth), we will not enter the kingdom of heaven. And righteousness means whatever is pleasing to God Almighty, Most Holy.

What is the law of Moses (as)?

Yes, and for whatever reason, He has for the most part entrusted that conveying to human beings. Though Jesus has appeared in dreams and visions to Muslims in unreached areas, and some of them have converted (Praise be unto Him) to Christianity.

Be wary of such stories, I have seen many myself, and the makers of them did more to turn me away from Christianity than to it. Many of them were blatantly false, with even the basic foundational Muslim beliefs confused and misrepresented. The fact that individuals would lie to seek converts led me to mistrust such stories. While converts from Islam to Christianity undoubtedly exist (especially in Spain ), I will mistrust their stories until I meet them in person.

What tragic blasphemy.

Not as tragic as the cause of their mistrust of the Roman church, notably what the Crusaders did to Constantinople... or Jerusalem for that matter.. something about 'Blood up to the knees of their horses'?

So JPark you are of the 'we don't know' camp? Probably a safe position to take! Would one consider a Muslim who is God centred as having a relationship with God. Is there no benefit for one who constantly remembers and glorifies Him?

 

[talitha]

So they are not held to the morals of their society, rather they are held by what they have rejected? So if they have rejected nothing, they are held accountable to nothing?

If they have physically heard the gospel or some part of it and have not received what they heard as truth and personally applicable, then they have rejected something.

What is the law of Moses (as)?

...read Leviticus and Deuteronomy.... btw, just out of curiosity, why do you keep putting "as" after things? I've seen "pbuh" but not "as".

Be wary of such stories, I have seen many myself, and the makers of them did more to turn me away from Christianity than to it..... I will mistrust their stories until I meet them in person.

Well, I have met two men in person who had similar experiences, but their stories are not on youtube, as their lives are still (as far as I know) in danger. As far as the stories in general, I am going to choose to believe the best unless I know different personally.

Not as tragic as the cause of their mistrust of the Roman church, notably what the Crusaders did to Constantinople... or Jerusalem for that matter.. something about 'Blood up to the knees of their horses'?

Depends upon your definition of tragic.

Would one consider a Muslim who is God centred as having a relationship with God. Is there no benefit for one who constantly remembers and glorifies Him?

Allah is not the same person as Yahweh. This is the conclusion I have come to. So - no, a Muslim who is "God" centered does not have a relationship with Yahweh, and no, there is no [eternal] benefit for one who constantly remembers and glorifies Allah. That is my belief as a Christian. Other Christians may buy Allah as Yahweh. I don't.

blessings in Jesus
Kathy

 

[MyHeroIsJesus]

Before we all are judged we will have the opportunity to accept Christ, but not all of us will.

 

[OttomanScribe]

If they have physically heard the gospel or some part of it and have not received what they heard as truth and personally applicable, then they have rejected something.

And if, as I said, they had not?

...read Leviticus and Deuteronomy.... btw, just out of curiosity, why do you keep putting "as" after things? I've seen "pbuh" but not "as".

as stands for 'alayhis salaam', which broadly translated means peace upon them. It is a mark of respect given to all Prophets, angels and Maryam (as).

Well, I have met two men in person who had similar experiences, but their stories are not on youtube, as their lives are still (as far as I know) in danger. As far as the stories in general, I am going to choose to believe the best unless I know different personally.

Forgive my scepticism, but being inside my religion, I am aware that we are quite lacking in hit squads to go around killing people that leave the deen lol. The leaders of most of our governments don't even practice and we can't hold them to that, let alone holding others to it. Allahu alim, some may be sincere, but all I have met have later been revealed to be Christian nationals posing as former Muslims because they know it pulls the heartstrings of other Christians.

Depends upon your definition of tragic.

I would define tragic as the sack of Constantinople and the massacre of the Eastern Church at the hands of Western barbarians. While the Eastern Romans were the enemies of Muslims, they did not deserve that. I can well understand a desire to live under Muslim rather than Catholic rule, for we never did to them what the Catholics did.

Allah is not the same person as Yahweh. This is the conclusion I have come to. So - no, a Muslim who is "God" centered does not have a relationship with Yahweh, and no, there is no [eternal] benefit for one who constantly remembers and glorifies Allah. That is my belief as a Christian. Other Christians may buy Allah as Yahweh. I don't.

What has brought you to this conclusion? For starters Arab Christians refer to God as 'Allah'. Apart from our refusal to deify Jesus (as), what is the core difference? Do you believe that the Jews worship Yahweh? For our conception of God is certainly similar, are difference stemming from their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah (as) and their exultation in their own race. Differences which you likely share..