Salvation of those without contact?

[talitha]

And if, as I said, they had not?

I find it hard to believe that these people have never heard the claims of Christianity, not even as refuted by Muslim believers. I believe that there is some element of truth that each person on the earth has responsibility for....

as stands for 'alayhis salaam', which broadly translated means peace upon them. It is a mark of respect given to all Prophets, angels and Maryam (as).

oh, okay, so same as pbuh.....

...all I have met have later been revealed to be Christian nationals posing as former Muslims because they know it pulls the heartstrings of other Christians.

sad.

I would define tragic as the sack of Constantinople.... we never did to them what the Catholics did.

What I think of as tragic is a false god posing as a true one, leading millions to eternal damnation.

What has brought you to this conclusion? For starters Arab Christians refer to God as 'Allah'. Apart from our refusal to deify Jesus (as), what is the core difference? Do you believe that the Jews worship Yahweh? For our conception of God is certainly similar, are difference stemming from their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah (as) and their exultation in their own race. Differences which you likely share..

Islam is a religion invented by an erstwhile prophet who was rejected by Jewish leaders but still wanted to make a name for himself. It's fabrication. The whole male-centered after-life theory is made up to entice soldiers to fight to the death. Once the house of Islam was built, all it lacked was an actual spirit to inhabit it - and there was, as it turned out, at least one demonic entity eager to do so; thus there is real power behind the sword. To call this entity "Allah", the same word which had already been used to speak of Yahweh before the invention of Islam, is part of the whole deception. If it seems I am angry -- well, I am -- because so many, many people have been mislead, including you. I don't like it when people are mislead.

blessings in Jesus, the living Son of God
tal

 

[OttomanScribe]

I find it hard to believe that these people have never heard the claims of Christianity, not even as refuted by Muslim believers. I believe that there is some element of truth that each person on the earth has responsibility for....

Is it beyond the possibility of belief? Do you believe every individual in the world has heard something of Christ?

sad.

Indeed.

What I think of as tragic is a false god posing as a true one, leading millions to eternal damnation.

A false God has no action its own, a false God can pose as nothing more than the misguidance of those who follow it. All that is is God's will, and we must surely be content with it.

Islam is a religion invented by an erstwhile prophet who was rejected by Jewish leaders but still wanted to make a name for himself. It's fabrication. The whole male-centered after-life theory is made up to entice soldiers to fight to the death. Once the house of Islam was built, all it lacked was an actual spirit to inhabit it - and there was, as it turned out, at least one demonic entity eager to do so; thus there is real power behind the sword. To call this entity "Allah", the same word which had already been used to speak of Yahweh before the invention of Islam, is part of the whole deception. If it seems I am angry -- well, I am -- because so many, many people have been mislead, including you. I don't like it when people are mislead.

I could reply in kind. However to do so would do neither I, nor you any good. Sadly neither of us are worthy of the religions that we profess. I could go on a tirade about the actual history of Christianity's treatment of women, or the massacres committed in its name, but they were not done by you. Even though I think you guilty of idolatry for deifying Jesus (as), I would never call you demonic for it.

In the end, both of us will know. I pray that both of us finds ourselves happy in Jannah (heaven), I preach damnation to no body. The country with the most Muslims in the world (Indonesia), became Muslim through no war, but simply through Muslim traders and saints here were what God commanded them to be, and others became like unto them. The centre of Christianity now lies in South America and Africa, where Christianity was bought by the sword. Only time will tell whose legacy proves the greater. I see in your religion not the legacy of Jesus (as), but that of Paul.

I wrote this on my conversion:

'It was for a moment that I was blinded by a smile, like a Damascus road journey punctuated with a flash of light.
But the former was as false as the latter, lies and illusions in turn making lines of allusions across my notepaper.
For that moment I knelt before her, both knees to the ground, begging and prayer looking much the same.
I liked her skin, false like Christ’s tanned whiteness in cruciform anguish, it seemed irony, innocence and corruption juxtaposed.
My worship faded with her smile, her rosemary tears turning to salt, mottled colour of stained glass seeming no more wondrous than a child’s Christmas baubles.
So I walked from her church, no longer riling at pleas falling upon deaf ears, shed no bitter tears for false gods and found salaam in the arms of one most worthy.'

 

[Lukaris]

Is it beyond the possibility of belief? Do you believe every individual in the world has heard something of Christ?
Indeed.

A false God has no action its own, a false God can pose as nothing more than the misguidance of those who follow it. All that is is God's will, and we must surely be content with it.

I could reply in kind. However to do so would do neither I, nor you any good. Sadly neither of us are worthy of the religions that we profess. I could go on a tirade about the actual history of Christianity's treatment of women, or the massacres committed in its name, but they were not done by you. Even though I think you guilty of idolatry for deifying Jesus (as), I would never call you demonic for it.

In the end, both of us will know. I pray that both of us finds ourselves happy in Jannah (heaven), I preach damnation to no body. The country with the most Muslims in the world (Indonesia), became Muslim through no war, but simply through Muslim traders and saints here were what God commanded them to be, and others became like unto them. The centre of Christianity now lies in South America and Africa, where Christianity was bought by the sword. Only time will tell whose legacy proves the greater. I see in your religion not the legacy of Jesus (as), but that of Paul.

I wrote this on my conversion:

'It was for a moment that I was blinded by a smile, like a Damascus road journey punctuated with a flash of light.
But the former was as false as the latter, lies and illusions in turn making lines of allusions across my notepaper.
For that moment I knelt before her, both knees to the ground, begging and prayer looking much the same.
I liked her skin, false like Christ’s tanned whiteness in cruciform anguish, it seemed irony, innocence and corruption juxtaposed.
My worship faded with her smile, her rosemary tears turning to salt, mottled colour of stained glass seeming no more wondrous than a child’s Christmas baubles.
So I walked from her church, no longer riling at pleas falling upon deaf ears, shed no bitter tears for false gods and found salaam in the arms of one most worthy.'

Well, no offense to you but you say that Christianity is of Paul and that you think this is your right. Paul, however, did not preach the Gospel by force whereas the prophet you claim to be the messenger of God did. There is also a bloody succession as to who are his successors as evidenced by your Sunni and Shiite sects. Jesus Christ revealed himself as God in His and the Triune God also, "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall tesitify of me:" (John 15:26). "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father..." (John 14:9). These are the words of Jesus Christ which have not been altered despite the claims of your prophet. It was this Christ who brought Paul to repentance and who had to prove himself to the Lord's apostles and this all had to be done peacefully.

 

[talitha]

Is it beyond the possibility of belief? Do you believe every individual in the world has heard something of Christ?

I believe most people have at least heard of Him, and it is my conception that there is such anti-Christian sentiment in Islam that it would be hard not to have heard something, even, as I said, in refutation.

A false God has no action its own, a false God can pose as nothing more than the misguidance of those who follow it. All that is is God's will, and we must surely be content with it.

On the contrary, a demon is perfectly capable of posing as a god, and many the world over have done so.

...I would never call you demonic for it.

I don't think you are entirely responsible for being deceived. I think there is supernatural power behind it.

I wrote this on my conversion:
'It was for a moment that I was blinded by a smile, like a Damascus road journey punctuated with a flash of light.
But the former was as false as the latter, lies and illusions in turn making lines of allusions across my notepaper.
For that moment I knelt before her, both knees to the ground, begging and prayer looking much the same.
I liked her skin, false like Christ’s tanned whiteness in cruciform anguish, it seemed irony, innocence and corruption juxtaposed.
My worship faded with her smile, her rosemary tears turning to salt, mottled colour of stained glass seeming no more wondrous than a child’s Christmas baubles.
So I walked from her church, no longer riling at pleas falling upon deaf ears, shed no bitter tears for false gods and found salaam in the arms of one most worthy.'

Ah, you are a poet. Beautiful, tragic words.

tal

 

[aiki]

We know him not as Jesus Christ, the Son of God, but as Esa bin Maryam (Jesus, son of Mary (as). We know him not as the son of God, but as a righteous Prophet and Messenger to the people. We know the Christians as people of revelation, whom, through later misguidance have lost their way. In that context, do you consider we know Jesus as you know him?

Muslims do not know Christ as Christians do. I said that they had some knowledge of the person of Christ and as such are accountable for what they do with that knowledge. Most Muslims adopt the view of Christ you describe above and, as a result, they stand under God's condemnation. If, however, a Muslim actually begins to study what history reveals of Christ, he/she will quickly see that the Muslim view of Christ is profoundly mistaken. Such a revelation may lead to salvation and escape from God's wrath. Unfortunately, most Muslims don't bother to pursue a careful study of Christ but, instead, simply accept the teachings of their religious superiors. Being careless in the matter of Christ, however, has very dire, eternal consequences, whether one is a Muslim, or a Hindu, or an atheist, or of some other religious persuasion.

Peace.

 

[aiki]

I would like to ask you something: Are your interactions here with Christians part of a process of solidifying your commitment to your Islamic religion? Do you seek to harden yourself against the Christian faith by asking your questions, hearing what Christians have to offer as responses, and refusing to be moved from your Muslim belief no matter what is said to you? Are all your interactions here a sort of "trial by fire"? Just wondering.

Peace.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Well, no offense to you but you say that Christianity is of Paul and that you think this is your right. Paul, however, did not preach the Gospel by force whereas the prophet you claim to be the messenger of God did. There is also a bloody succession as to who are his successors as evidenced by your Sunni and Shiite sects. Jesus Christ revealed himself as God in His and the Triune God also, "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall tesitify of me:" (John 15:26). "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father..." (John 14:9). These are the words of Jesus Christ which have not been altered despite the claims of your prophet. It was this Christ who brought Paul to repentance and who had to prove himself to the Lord's apostles and this all had to be done peacefully.

The Messenger of God (sws) at no point preached Islam by force. While his armies did defend their community against genocide, they were not involved in spreading the religion. Christian and Jewish minorities existed in Medina and were not eradicated (save a Jewish group who betrayed the community to the pagans, attempting to assasinate the Messenger (sws).

I know many Christians that refer to God as 'our Father'. Does this mean they are also children of God in the literal sense?

I believe most people have at least heard of Him, and it is my conception that there is such anti-Christian sentiment in Islam that it would be hard not to have heard something, even, as I said, in refutation.

What of those who do not fall under the umbrella of 'most'?

I don't think you are entirely responsible for being deceived. I think there is supernatural power behind it.

What makes you believe this?

Ah, you are a poet. Beautiful, tragic words.

Thankyou, for the beautiful, though tragic was not really what I was going for

Muslims do not know Christ as Christians do. I said that they had some knowledge of the person of Christ and as such are accountable for what they do with that knowledge. Most Muslims adopt the view of Christ you describe above and, as a result, they stand under God's condemnation. If, however, a Muslim actually begins to study what history reveals of Christ, he/she will quickly see that the Muslim view of Christ is profoundly mistaken. Such a revelation may lead to salvation and escape from God's wrath. Unfortunately, most Muslims don't bother to pursue a careful study of Christ but, instead, simply accept the teachings of their religious superiors. Being careless in the matter of Christ, however, has very dire, eternal consequences, whether one is a Muslim, or a Hindu, or an atheist, or of some other religious persuasion.

As a history student I did just this, and it led me not to a deeper understanding of Christianity, it led me to atheism.

Peace.

Wa'alaykum

I would like to ask you something: Are your interactions here with Christians part of a process of solidifying your commitment to your Islamic religion? Do you seek to harden yourself against the Christian faith by asking your questions, hearing what Christians have to offer as responses, and refusing to be moved from your Muslim belief no matter what is said to you? Are all your interactions here a sort of "trial by fire"? Just wondering.

I used to be Christian, and have a fairly extensive understanding of the various different Christian theological schools. I come here to explore more about the social rulings and current state of Christian 'law' (the best word I can come up with). I believe that sagacity leads to God, indeed it was thought that led me from atheism to a kind of areligious monotheism.. which in turn led to Islam. I have no real need to test my faith through interactions with Christians. I am just curious is all

On the contrary, a demon is perfectly capable of posing as a god, and many the world over have done so.

Demons have no more power over you than you give them. They whisper, but our self deceptions are our own.

 

[aiki]

As a history student I did just this, and it led me not to a deeper understanding of Christianity, it led me to atheism.

And there are many others for whom the study of the life of Christ did not. Instead, the same study of Christ you say you've made have led others to a saving faith in Him as Saviour and Lord. So, what's the difference? Are you smarter than these others? I think not. Are you a better student of history? No. The difference, I think, has nothing to do with intellectual capacity or the facts of history at all.

I used to be Christian, and have a fairly extensive understanding of the various different Christian theological schools. I come here to explore more about the social rulings and current state of Christian 'law' (the best word I can come up with). I believe that sagacity leads to God, indeed it was thought that led me from atheism to a kind of areligious monotheism.. which in turn led to Islam. I have no real need to test my faith through interactions with Christians. I am just curious is all

Fair enough. I just find it...odd that as one who "used to be Christian" and had a "fairly extensive understanding" of things Christian that you come to this site to satisfy your curiosity about Christianity. Given what you claim about your past involvement with Christianity, your inquiries here seem rather redundant. I would expect that as a well-informed former Christian you'd already know the answers to the questions you're asking.

By the way, the apostle John writes about those who "used to be Christian":

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

If, at the moment of conversion, the Holy Spirit of the Almighty God of the Universe comes to live within you as the Bible says, you will never after be able to abandon your fellowship with Christ. One who is truly a Christian, who is really "born again," is transformed inwardly by God's Spirit such that living as a follower of Christ is found to be the most fulfilling and precious experience in life. This fellowship is so rich and deep that it cannot be set aside. This the apostle John understood, which is why he wrote what I quoted above. In light of these facts, I can confidently say, just as the apostle John did of those apostates of the faith in his time, that you were never saved; you were never a Christian in the true sense of the word; for if you had been, you still would be. And this, I think, has everything to do with why you aren't a Christian now.

Peace.

 

[OttomanScribe]

And there are many others for whom the study of the life of Christ did not. Instead, the same study of Christ you say you've made have led others to a saving faith in Him as Saviour and Lord. So, what's the difference? Are you smarter than these others? I think not. Are you a better student of history? No. The difference, I think, has nothing to do with intellectual capacity or the facts of history at all.

I am sorry but this confuses me. It seems to contradict what you said before, namely:

' If, however, a Muslim actually begins to study what history reveals of Christ, he/she will quickly see that the Muslim view of Christ is profoundly mistaken.'

I am not the only one who, from the history, released that Jesus (as) never claimed to be God, but rather that his deification was something later put upon him by Paul.

I am not smarter than others, there are many intelligent Christians, I simply have a difference of opinion... one that stems from reading the history itself, and reading it as I did (as a non-Muslim) I did not see the Muslim view as 'profoundly mistaken'.

Fair enough. I just find it...odd that as one who "used to be Christian" and had a "fairly extensive understanding" of things Christian that you come to this site to satisfy your curiosity about Christianity. Given what you claim about your past involvement with Christianity, your inquiries here seem rather redundant. I would expect that as a well-informed former Christian you'd already know the answers to the questions you're asking.

My understanding was, as with my understanding of Islam, centred on theology rather than law as such. While I may have a knowledge of the various Christian understandings of God, this does not constitute an absolute statement of knowledge on all things Christian. As grace teachings place so much emphasis on belief, I believe a rejection of said beliefs is sufficient to make one no longer Christian.

If, at the moment of conversion, the Holy Spirit of the Almighty God of the Universe comes to live within you as the Bible says, you will never after be able to abandon your fellowship with Christ. One who is truly a Christian, who is really "born again," is transformed inwardly by God's Spirit such that living as a follower of Christ is found to be the most fulfilling and precious experience in life. This fellowship is so rich and deep that it cannot be set aside. This the apostle John understood, which is why he wrote what I quoted above. In light of these facts, I can confidently say, just as the apostle John did of those apostates of the faith in his time, that you were never saved; you were never a Christian in the true sense of the word; for if you had been, you still would be. And this, I think, has everything to do with why you aren't a Christian now.

The word for this is 'no-true Scotsman', atheists say the same thing to me: namely 'you can never have been a real atheist if you are religious now'. Allah guides whom He wills, and whoever He guides, none can misguide, similarly whomever He leads astray, none can bring back.

Peace.

Wa'Alaykum.

 

[aiki]

I am sorry but this confuses me. It seems to contradict what you said before, namely:

' If, however, a Muslim actually begins to study what history reveals of Christ, he/she will quickly see that the Muslim view of Christ is profoundly mistaken.'

I am not the only one who, from the history, released that Jesus (as) never claimed to be God, but rather that his deification was something later put upon him by Paul.

You set yourself up as an exception to my assertion and I responded by suggesting that you don't necessarily represent all others who take up an investigation of the person of Christ. I was overly categorical, though, about the response people have to the facts about Jesus.

As to the notion of Paul deifying Christ, you obviously don't know the Gospels well. If you did, you would not have made such an assertion. Jesus does make it clear that he was the Messiah, the Son of God. He claims equality with God very plainly in the Gospels. Here are some examples:

John 5:17-18
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father works hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 8:56-59
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

John 10:30-33
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do you stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone you not; but for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, make yourself God.

See also the first chapter of the Gospel of John.

Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

There are many other verses and passages in the Gospels that point directly to Christ's divinity. His divinity is definitely not a fabrication of the apostle Paul.

The word for this is 'no-true Scotsman', atheists say the same thing to me: namely 'you can never have been a real atheist if you are religious now'. Allah guides whom He wills, and whoever He guides, none can misguide, similarly whomever He leads astray, none can bring back.

I suppose if I wasn't able to appeal to the defining authority on what does or doesn't make a Christian, I might concede I'm guilty of this fallacy. The fact is, that in the Bible itself the statement that any who fall away from the faith never were true believers is made. I'm not simply raising this point ad hoc in order to dismiss your assertion that you were a Christian. There is an objective standard, the Bible, which sets the definition for what is and isn't Christian and it indicates in the passage I referenced that you never were a true Christian.

Peace.

 

[OttomanScribe]

As to the notion of Paul deifying Christ, you obviously don't know the Gospels well. If you did, you would not have made such an assertion. Jesus does make it clear that he was the Messiah, the Son of God. He claims equality with God very plainly in the Gospels. Here are some examples:

Being the Messiah and being the Son of God are two different things. I know many Christians who refer to God as 'our father', does this make their claim literal? Similarly when one calls them-self a 'child of God', is it the same? There are many statements that Jesus (as) makes that refer to God as being superior to him:

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

"…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."

"…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."

"My Father is greater than I."

"My Father is greater than all."

"… and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me."

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."

"And behold, one came and said unto him, ‘Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?’
And he said unto him, ‘Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.’ "

This, combined with the understanding of Monotheism clear in the Old Testament, means that it is far more likely that the former statements (those apparently applying divinity) are those that are misinterpreted, rather than the latter. It is indeed a far leap to believe that the indivisible God of the Old Testament would suddenly change to the fractured and confused theology that is needed to justify Jesus's divinity.

I am however aware that this is not the place for such debates, and have little problem if the mods wish to delete both our posts before this divergence

Peace.

Wa'Alaykum

 

[Lukaris]

Being the Messiah and being the Son of God are two different things. I know many Christians who refer to God as 'our father', does this make their claim literal? Similarly when one calls them-self a 'child of God', is it the same? There are many statements that Jesus (as) makes that refer to God as being superior to him:









This, combined with the understanding of Monotheism clear in the Old Testament, means that it is far more likely that the former statements (those apparently applying divinity) are those that are misinterpreted, rather than the latter. It is indeed a far leap to believe that the indivisible God of the Old Testament would suddenly change to the fractured and confused theology that is needed to justify Jesus's divinity.

I am however aware that this is not the place for such debates, and have little problem if the mods wish to delete both our posts before this divergence


Wa'Alaykum

I believe people here have given ample support that Jesus Christ is God, as the Bible testifies and St. Paul affirms. You just do not want to believe it & say Paul made it all up. Peace.

 

[aiki]

Being the Messiah and being the Son of God are two different things. I know many Christians who refer to God as 'our father', does this make their claim literal? Similarly when one calls them-self a 'child of God', is it the same? There are many statements that Jesus (as) makes that refer to God as being superior to him:

You asserted that Paul was responsible for manufacturing the idea that Christ was divine and I showed you from the Gospels that he was not. In three different passages in the Gospel of John alone, the Jews recognize that Jesus was claiming equality with God. They were so incensed by this they tried to stone Jesus. Since Christ's divinity was declared so plainly by Christ himself, it is not correct to say that Paul artificially put such a construction on the person of Christ.

Yes, God is literally the Heavenly Father to those who are saved. Does this make Christians literally divine? No, Christians are adopted children, as Paul the apostle explains. Just like an asian child adopted by caucasian parents doesn't suddenly become caucasian, neither do human beings adopted by God the Father suddenly become divine. But the Bible teaches that those of us who are saved are "joint-heirs with Christ" and that we have been "given the Spirit of adoption whereby we cry, 'Abba. Father.'" (Ro. 8) While there is no change in our physical nature when we are saved - that is, we remain human - there is a profound change in the relational dynamic between creature and Creator.

Why does Jesus refer to God the Father as superior? Well, let me explain from the verses you referenced.

John 5:30
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father who has sent me.

As God in the flesh, Christ became a man and in so doing "humbled himself." This humbling, in part, involved setting aside his heavenly glory, power and position. In order to be a human being and the designated sacrifice for Man's sin, Christ adopted an "inferior" position to God the Father. This was an inferiority of role or function, however, not nature. One can still observe the unity of God the Father and God the Son in the singularity of purpose, of will, expressed in Christ's words above. Rather than indicating a difference between Christ and God the Father, the verse you cite actually reinforces their homogeneity.

Luke 11:20
20 But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

I'm not sure why you use this verse as an indication of Christ's inferiority to God the Father. In context, the verse is part of an explanation Christ is giving to the Pharisees about his unity with God. If Christ is casting out demons with the finger of God, wouldn't that suggest that he is like God rather than different from Him? It certainly seems so to me...

John 14:28
28 You have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If you loved me, you would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

It is a simple truism that the sender is "greater" than the one who is sent. The Master of a house sends his servant to accomplish some task. In nature, the servant and Master are the same (they are both human beings), but in role the Master is greater than the servant. In this respect, Christ, the one sent as a sacrifice for our sins, is "inferior" to God who sent Christ to be the sacrifice. Again, this is a matter of role, not nature.

Matthew 19:16-17
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"
17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Christ is asking here that, if the young ruler is calling him good, and there is only One who is good, who is God, then is the young man calling him God? In other words, Jesus responds to the young ruler's characterization of him as good by asking essentially, "Are you saying that I am God?" This passage, then, doesn't serve as a useful means of establishing a distinction in nature between Christ and God the Father.

The verses you have offered must be understood within the broader context of all Scripture. Separating them out from this broader, qualifying context severely diminishes one's ability to properly interpret what a particular verse is actually communicating.

This, combined with the understanding of Monotheism clear in the Old Testament,

Even in the OT there is evidence that God was not One in the Arian sense of the word.

See: The Trinity in the Old Testament

means that it is far more likely that the former statements (those apparently applying divinity) are those that are misinterpreted, rather than the latter.

I'm not sure here to what you are referring...

It is indeed a far leap to believe that the indivisible God of the Old Testament would suddenly change to the fractured and confused theology that is needed to justify Jesus's divinity.

In fact, as the above web link explains, it is no leap at all. There has been no fracturing and confusion, but, instead, a fuller revealing and clarifying of the nature of God.

Peace.

 

[ephraimanesti]

A friend of mine went to study Islamic theology and law in Mauritania (a country in North Africa) and he was surprised in his travels to come upon a village that thought the world was Muslim. They spoke about the Christians, Jews and pagans as though they were an extinct species, unable to comprehend that anyone would be non-Muslim.

How would Christian theology view such individuals? Are they held to the morals of their society? Or still obligated to believe in a concept of God that they have no knowledge of?

Thanks in advance, peace.

MY BROTHER,

Perhaps your OP has already been answered, but i will throw my "mite" in anyway:

It seems to me that given God is a loving and merciful entity, He probably acts on the "Judgment According to Privilege" principal--"From whom much is given, much will be expected." (Luke 12:48)

In other words, all human beings will be judged as to how well they have lived up to the the light they have been given. Exactly how this process works, i do not know, nor would i argue its validity--i just believe it is true given what i know and have experienced of God and His compassion for all His children.

Several other Scriptures which seem (to me at least) to support this conjecture are:

"That servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:47-48)

"Jesus said, 'If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.' " (John 9:41)

"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin." (John 15:22)

"For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law." (Romans 2:12)

Scripture tells us that Jesus died for the sins of ALL, ESPECIALLY of those who believe. (I Timothy 4:10) i fully believe that our Lord has made ample provision for those, who through no fault of their own, did not get to hear the Gospel during their life on earth. What that provision looks like, i have no idea.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[Spoonbill]

In other words, all human beings will be judged as to how well they have lived up to the the light they have been given. Exactly how this process works, i do not know, nor would i argue its validity--i just believe it is true given what i know and have experienced of God and His compassion for all His children.

Finally. Something we can agree on. This is exactly how I see God.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Finally. Something we can agree on. This is exactly how I see God.

MY BROTHER,

If we agree on what you quoted, perhaps i don't understand Pantheism very well. Could you perhaps elucidate for me a little what Pantheism entails?

ephraim

 

[Spoonbill]

MY BROTHER,

If we agree on what you quoted, perhaps i don't understand Pantheism very well. Could you perhaps elucidate for me a little what Pantheism entails?

ephraim

Well there is Pantheism and Panantheism, but the differences are quite minute and almost irrelevant.

Pantheists believe that the Universe, or more specifically, existence itself is God, or a manifestation of God.

I believe that positive energy and positive actions tunes ones mind into being able to tap into this infinite and unconditional love that flows through existence. And I do mean unconditional. I believe we can do no wrong in Gods eyes, however, positive energy and behaviour (I suppose you could say, "being nice and helpful", allows us to get closer to this energy.

I believe in this love many religious people feel too and slap the "God" label on. I however make no attempt to even fathom its awe. Humans are too stupid and limited to try and pidgeon-hole what God actually is. So we write 2000 year old fairy tales on these experiences (which I believe are real), but are completely misinterprating it.

Humans being wrong on the theory of reality??!?! Never...

The God I believe in knows only love, does not punish, does not judge, and most certainly is not deeply concerned about my sex life.

 

[childofGod31]

A friend of mine went to study Islamic theology and law in Mauritania (a country in North Africa) and he was surprised in his travels to come upon a village that thought the world was Muslim. They spoke about the Christians, Jews and pagans as though they were an extinct species, unable to comprehend that anyone would be non-Muslim.

How would Christian theology view such individuals? Are they held to the morals of their society? Or still obligated to believe in a concept of God that they have no knowledge of?

Thanks in advance, peace.

God is just. He judges the hearts. He would not judge someone for not coming to Christ if they never heard about Christ. I believe it. I believe in Love and Justice. And God is both. The people who were living before Christ came also never heard of Christ and also will be judged according to their hearts. It's the same thing here.

 

[OttomanScribe]

It seems like the Eastern position is essentially the same to a large extent as that held by Asha'ri aqidah (a school of Muslim theology).

To Aiki, that seems to make sense. According to what I see, according to the Bible, Jesus (as) claimed divinity. I do not accept the Bible as either the word of God, or as uncorrupted so it does not affect my views on Isa (as). But regardless I recant my position (unless further explanation comes to light).

 

[Lukaris]

Well there is Pantheism and Panantheism, but the differences are quite minute and almost irrelevant.

Pantheists believe that the Universe, or more specifically, existence itself is God, or a manifestation of God.

I believe that positive energy and positive actions tunes ones mind into being able to tap into this infinite and unconditional love that flows through existence. And I do mean unconditional. I believe we can do no wrong in Gods eyes, however, positive energy and behaviour (I suppose you could say, "being nice and helpful", allows us to get closer to this energy.

I believe in this love many religious people feel too and slap the "God" label on. I however make no attempt to even fathom its awe. Humans are too stupid and limited to try and pidgeon-hole what God actually is. So we write 2000 year old fairy tales on these experiences (which I believe are real), but are completely misinterprating it.

Humans being wrong on the theory of reality??!?! Never...

The God I believe in knows only love, does not punish, does not judge, and most certainly is not deeply concerned about my sex life.

Spoonbill, what you say about energy, right action, and the ultimate incomprehensible God has much truth but it is from God's revelation in His grace that we apprehend much of this in Eastern Orthodoxy. It is from the essence of the Holy Trinity that blesses all people with the ability to conform to this uncreated energy whether in Spirit and in truth (per John 4:24) or at least according to our conscience (see Romans 2:11-16, the Beatitudes in Matthew:5-12 etc.).

This is expressed in the Old & New Testaments and is dependent on the salvation of the Lord Jesus Christ, God, the Son of Man in God's love to us. I am not expecting you to automatically buy into this. These are concepts that have been Christian since the beginning but often unnoticed. A 14th c Orthodox theologian & saint Gregory Palamas helped maintain this clarification; I ask that you at least read this link re St. Gregory Light for the World: the Life of St. Gregory Palamas (1296–1359) | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese to ponder this. Of course, also consider the posts that Christians have made in this thread also.