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Salvation Lost?

Discussion in 'For New Christians' started by Droobie, Mar 11, 2002.

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  1. Me4him

    Me4him New Member

    31
    +0
    Do you believe the day God saved you, he "DIDN'T" know "everything" you're going to do, or not do, until you die?

    Sure he did, but he saved you "ANYWAY".

    God doesn't "go back" and say OOPPS!!!! I made a mistake, I didn't know they were going to sin again, I'll have to "take back your salvation"

    Do you see how "COMICAL" it is to believe God makes such "UNINFORMED DECISIONS".


    He doesn't, and that's why "once saved, always saved", it's a decision made by an "ALL KNOWING GOD" toward a "Sinner" who will never stop sinning until they're dead.

    Works can't saved you and neither can work "un-save" you.

    To offend the law in "one point" (one sin) makes you as guilty as offending "ALL OF THE LAWS".

    Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in
    one point, he is guilty of all.

    Just one sin is all that's required to make you a "Sinner".

    WHO??? is going to live and never sin again??????

    "NONE". yet they're "saved".
     
  2. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    A Christian cannot lose his salvation -- Part I

    First and foremost, we are talking about true-blue, born-again Christians. This statement, however, leads to a problem: How do we know if someone is truly born of God?

    In some cases, it is really hard to tell and only God would know. We must also not expect overnight changes in the person and underestimate the work of the Holy Spirit. We need only ask ourselves how long we took to "produce fruit" to remember our own stubborness and our Lord's patience.

    That said, let's deal first with easy scriptures that clearly support eternal security.

    It is comforting to note that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all "play a part" in keeping us saved. We can call this triple protection!

    The Father...

    * John 10:29 -- My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

    The Son...

    * John 10:28 -- I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

    The Holy Spirit...

    * 2 Corinthians 1:22 -- set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
    * Ephesians 1:13 -- And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
    * Ephesians 4:30 -- And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

    A Christian might argue that he can "snatch" himself out of the Father's hand by wilfully renouncing Christ. But he forgets that "no one" in John 10:28,29 includes him! (See "Renouncing Christ".)

    Furthermore, Jesus said : "I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish." Common spiritual sense tells us that "eternal life" is not "eternal" if it can be cut off at some point. Also, "never" simply means never. It can't get any simpler than that!

    Speaking of eternal life, it is given to us by God the moment we are born again. Eternal life does not begin after we die physically. As long as we have Christ in us, we have eternal life -- we are not waiting to get it someday.

    * 1 John 5:12 -- He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

    Can sinning cause us to lose it?

    The answer lies in this verse:

    * Romans 5:19 -- For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

    Man is a sinner because of what Adam had done, not because he sins -- he sins because he has inherited Adam's sinful nature. Likewise, a Christian is righteous because of what Jesus Christ had done at the cross, not because he does good -- he does good because Christ is in him.

    When we were sinners, our good deeds could not undo what Adam had done and make us righteous. Similarly, now that we are righteous, our bad deeds or sins cannot undo what Christ had done and make us unrighteous!

    If we believe that the former is impossible but the latter, possible, then we are saying:

    * Adam's work was superior to Christ's, when the opposite is true (Romans 5:15).
    * Our sinning is more powerful than the perfect work and blood of Christ.
    * The blood of bulls and goats in the Old Testament is more "potent" than the blood of Christ, since the former could atone for the sins of Israel for at least one year, but that the latter loses its effect the moment we sin.

    Consider also that because of what Jesus Christ had accomplished on the cross, God is not even counting men's sins against them, let alone Christians!

    * 2 Corinthians 5:19 -- that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
    * Hebrews 10:17 -- Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

    Predestination

    Paul himself talks about eternal security in Romans.

    * Romans 8:29,30 -- For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

    The very idea of predestination presupposes that God knows beforehand. He is, afterall, omniscient. Those who believe that a born again Christian can lose his salvation should ask themselves if God could, in His perfect foreknowledge, predestinate persons "to be conformed to the image of his Son", knowing that they would eventually renounce Christ and lose their salvation (assuming that were possible). The very purpose of predestination and God’s perfect foreknowledge contradict that!

    Note also the unbroken chain of events: predestinate -- called -- justified -- glorified. God will complete the process for every Christian, not just some! (See "He's faithful, not us".)

    In a sense, Christians are already glorified in Christ Jesus, being seated with Him in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6). But there is more to come!

    At the rapture, they will receive new imperishable bodies (1 Corinthians 15:52-54). There is also further glorification when the church is presented as the spotless bride to the Father by her bridegroom, Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:27).

    So, how can "them he also glorified" be completely true if believers can lose their salvation? And how can a "justified" Christian be unjustified and cast into hell?

    Renouncing Christ

    Christians who believe that salvation can be lost generally agree that there are many clear verses in the Bible that support eternal security. However, they draw the line when it comes to wilfully renouncing Christ. In other words, these same verses don't "cover" the Christian who decides to give up Christ.

    But which true-blue, born-again Christian would, in his right mind, suddenly decide to renounce Christ? Surely it must be a temptation of the devil, a demonic influence. It cannot be a self-contained decision.

    This being the case, let's suppose that the Christian does renounce Christ and lose his salvation. This would mean that the "demons" and "powers" responsible for influencing him have succeeded in seprating him from the love of God. This, however, is in direct contradiction to Romans 8:38,39!

    * Romans 8:38,39 -- For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    He is faithful, not us

    Many Christians think that after they are saved, they need to work at keeping their salvation, or they might lose it. This is really no different from trying to earn salvation, which can only be received by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8)!

    Also, they are foolish to think that they have the power to "maintain" their salvation. It is God who "keeps" them saved! It is God who is always faithful, not them!

    * Romans 14:4 -- Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
    * 1 Corinthians 1:8 -- He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
    * 1 Corinthians 10:13 -- No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
    * 2 Corinthians 1:21 -- Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ.
    * 2 Thessalonians 3:3 -- But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.
    * 2 Timothy 4:18 -- The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
    * Hebrews 2:18 -- Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
    * Jude 1:24 -- To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy--
     
  3. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    PART 2:

    Difficult passages explained I

    Matthew 7:21 -- "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

    A rule of thumb in Bible study is to interpret difficult verses in the light of simple clear cut ones. We should not be building doctrines out of one or two difficult verses.

    That said, many have taken the above verse to mean that Christians can lose their salvation if they do not do what God tells them to do. To them, the "will of my Father" means just about everything God tells them to do. But if that is the case, who can enter heaven? Who can do everything that God tells him to do? What about doing 80 per cent of it? Is that enough for a perfect God? It all boils down to salvation by works!

    Obviously, the "will of my Father" here is not to be interpreted generally as "anything and everything that God tells us to do". So, what is it, specifically?

    Note that the context in this verse is salvation -- "enter the kingdom of heaven". So, the Father's "will" should relate, specifically, to salvation, and it does!

    * John 6:39 -- And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
    * John 6:40 -- For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

    God's will in Matthew 7:21 is simply salvation for man. In fact, He is not willing that any should perish.

    * Matthew 18:14 -- In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.
    * 2 Peter 3:9 -- The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    So, how do we fulfil the will of God in Matthew 7:21? What should we do? Actually, there's nothing we can do except to believe, since everything that needs to be done for man to be saved has already been done perfectly by Jesus. We cannot add to it. Our part is simply to believe!

    * John 6:29 -- Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

    So, in Matthew 7:21, Jesus is saying that only those who believe in Him will enter the kingdom of heaven!

    Difficult passages explained II

    Matthew 7:22,23 -- Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

    "On that day" refers to the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. When He returns to earth in power and great glory (Matthew 24:30) to reign as King, the whole world will know that He is the Christ. At that time, many non-believers will call Him "Lord", out of fear or because it will be obvious to them that He is the Christ. But it will be too late then, because the time is up, the Master has returned! They should have believed earlier. They can't be saved then by calling Him "Lord", since faith will not be required as they will be able to see with their own eyes that Jesus is the Son of God!

    Therefore, Jesus will tell these people that He never knew them and to depart. Afterall, they never had a personal relationship with Him, and calling Him "Lord" then will just be a vain attempt to start one!

    But how can we be sure that these people in Matthew 7:22,23 are not Christians who have "lost their salvation"?

    The key lies in the word "never", when Jesus says "I never knew you". Jesus would be lying if He used the word "never" because He would have known them at least once -- perhaps the first 10 years of their Christian life before they "renounced" Him and "lost their salvation", assuming that were possible.

    So, who are these people who prophesied, drived out demons and performed miracles?

    It must be noted that the "evildoers" themselves are making these claims, not Jesus. It sure sounds like they are saying those things in a desperate attempt to gain the Lord's recognition and get saved!

    It could be Syed Baba, some Taoist spiritualist or a cult leader saying those things "on that day", perhaps with a misguided belief that they were doing it all in the name of God. Even today, such non-believers do have power (demonic in nature) to "heal" the sick, "tell" the future or have a demon speak through them, and "drive away" another demon if the demon that they serve holds a higher authority in Satan's kingdom.

    Difficult passages explained III

    Hebrews 6:4-6 -- It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

    The book of Hebrews was written to Jewish believers and non-believers, not so much to the Gentile church, although Gentile Christians can benefit greatly by reading the book. Contrast this book to Paul's epistles to the churches and the difference is quite clear.

    The Jews were deeply entrenched in the laws, customs and sacrifices of Judaism. That is why Hebrews focuses on the fact that Jesus is the final sacrifice and the High Priest of high priests, and that He supercedes Moses, Abraham and all the other heroes of faith mentioned in the Old Testament (Hebrews 12:2).

    Previously, mainly out of spiritual blindness, the Jews had failed to recognise Jesus as the Messiah, rejected His message of salvation by grace and crucified Him.

    Now, after knowing better -- having "been enlightened", having had the gospel explained to them via the Apostles, having seen miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit in Acts -- if they continue to reject Christ, they are in a sense putting Jesus back on the cross -- "crucifying the Son of God all over again".

    Is it possible that persons "who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age" can be non-believers?

    Yes, Judas Iscariot was one such person. He had been with Jesus for about three years, sat under His teaching and even seen the power Jesus demonstrated through the Holy Spirit. Yet, Judas was not a believer. He never addressed Jesus as "Lord". You cannot find it in the Bible. Judas had only addressed Jesus as "Master" (Matthew 26:25).

    Similarly, today, there are many people who have "tasted" Jesus and the gospel; seen miracles performed right in front of them or even on them, and yet turned away from God.

    Note also that the verse only says "enlightened", "tasted" and "shared". These are not words the Bible associates with being saved. We know that salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8). We don't get saved by being "enlightened", by "tasting" or by "sharing"! All that is good but we must still believe in our hearts and confess Jesus as our Lord and righteousness (Romans 10:9).
     
  4. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    claire,

    you are most welcome. to answer your quest regarding 2 Pet, first know these things abt Bible study:

    1. Answer difficult passages like this one in the light of clear-cut scriptures. I've already shown you many clear scriptures that prove OSAS. So this one cannot contradict this established doctrine. It's important to start on the "right footing" or else you'll interpret it wrongly.

    2. Always let the Bible interpret the Bible. ie the context always gives you the answer. you'd be surprised that in many "controverisal" verses, the clues are just one or two sentences away!

    In 2 Pet 2, read the whole chapter. then ask yourself, can it be talking about true-blue born agains like yourself? Look at the words used : "false prophets", "introduce heresies", "shameful ways" "ungodly people", "bold" "arrogant", "not afriad to slander angels" "blasphemers", etc etc. contrast with terms like brethren, beloved, brothers, etc which Paul uses when addressing Christians.

    Other clues: the word there in v20 "knowing" the Lord Jesus is simply people with head knowledge. I know of people who know the gospel but refuse to accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour. There are even scholars who know the Bible better than you and I, know who Jesus is, have been touched by Him (just like Judas) yet are not believers.

    KJV is clearer: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,

    It's just knowledge.

    another clue: v22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

    The Bible refers to Chrisitians as "sheep". You are either a sheep or not. A sheep cannot turn back into a goat or dog or pig. Notice here is just says a dog returning to its vomit. pig to its mire. It does not say a sheep becoming a dog again and returning to its vomit.

    hope this helps.

    I need to go to bed now. tomorrow I'll show you how to judge from your spirit truth and error. It's quite straightforward.

    God bless!
     
  5. soulsisterclaire

    soulsisterclaire JESUS DIED FOR YOU & ME

    578
    +0
    I was messing around on the net, and came across a website that says you can lose your salvation if you are in sin.

    I am one of those Christians that seems to backslide every so often. God punishes me and I come back to him. I wish I could overcome this, but it is hard.

    I have always believed that once saved you are always saved, but this particular website says that is not true.

    Do you all think that it is possible to lose your salvation?

    :confused:
     
  6. soulsisterclaire

    soulsisterclaire JESUS DIED FOR YOU & ME

    578
    +0
    Sorry. I just saw that this question has already been posted elsewhere.

    What can I say, I am new... :)
     
  7. soulsisterclaire

    soulsisterclaire JESUS DIED FOR YOU & ME

    578
    +0
    Thank you all so much for the replies and encouraging words! I will seek God in prayer to reveal the Truth to me.

    Please pray for me to stop the backsliding. Everytime I get away from God it is so much harder and takes longer to get back to Him.

    He never said it would be easy though!

    Peace,
    soulsisterclaire
     
  8. soulsisterclaire

    soulsisterclaire JESUS DIED FOR YOU & ME

    578
    +0
    Yes, I read that last night. Cool huh?
     
  9. soulsisterclaire

    soulsisterclaire JESUS DIED FOR YOU & ME

    578
    +0
    I found a very interesting article by the author of Edge of Eternity, Randy Alcorn(GREAT book by the way)

    The article debates and discusses if one can or can not lose their salvation.

    Pretty good article.

    Here's the link:

    http://www.epm.org/security.html

    By the way, the article has nothing to do with the book. The book Edge of Eternity is a novel. It changed my life.
     
  10. soulsisterclaire

    soulsisterclaire JESUS DIED FOR YOU & ME

    578
    +0
    If I feel in my gut that I am saved and can not lose my salvation, do you suppose that I am right? Don't you think that the Holy Spirit would convict me if it were otherwise?
     
  11. soulsisterclaire

    soulsisterclaire JESUS DIED FOR YOU & ME

    578
    +0
    What is really ironic or funny is that I am this thread starter and I am not a new Christian, but a newly dedicated Christian. Which is why I was asking the question. After reading all of the replies I realized my error in posting in this forum. However, it makes my point.

    I was backslidden for about 3 years. I have recently re-dedicated my life to the Lord. My question really was, while I was backslidden or in sin for the past three years, had I died during that time, would I have eternal life, or not? That was/is the ultimate question I was asking.

    Now I have a new question!(Maybe I should start new thread?)

    Do you all think that I am now what could be considered a "New Christian" again? Mustn't I start all over again with my relationship with the Father and Jesus, or do I just pick up where I left off? Cause it is sooooo much harder this time around. The "world" has a huge hold on me. I can not seem to "let go" of it. Pray for me. Any advice is helpful. Uhhh, no flames please.
     
  12. soulsisterclaire

    soulsisterclaire JESUS DIED FOR YOU & ME

    578
    +0
    Andrew :hug: , you are such a special Christian. Surely God sent you here to give me encouragement! Those words and verses you gave me were so helpful, and exactly what I was needing when I asked the question in the first place. I will no longer doubt my Salvation! :D

    Thank you and thank God!

    God has been glorified here today!

    We are so blessed that this website exists! This is the best fellowship I have ever had with other Christians! You all are so helpful and non-judgemental! Thank you all! :D
     
  13. soulsisterclaire

    soulsisterclaire JESUS DIED FOR YOU & ME

    578
    +0
    Thank you again Andrew!

    This verse is THE ONE that has always made me doubt:

    "Hebrews 6:4-6 -- It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

    Thank you for explaining that it is not talking about Saved Christians. Here is another that I think may go along with it, care to elaborate?

    "2 Peter 2
    19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity--for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them."

    What or who do you belive the are talking about?
     
  14. soulsisterclaire

    soulsisterclaire JESUS DIED FOR YOU & ME

    578
    +0
    Thanks Andrew!

    Good Night! :sleep:
     
  15. soulsisterclaire

    soulsisterclaire JESUS DIED FOR YOU & ME

    578
    +0
    Again, thank you Andrew! Everything you have said makes so much sense to me. You say everything so simply. I feel like you are reading my mind in a way, I needed to hear it all. This must be the Spirit working in you. You truly have a gift to minister to others.

    I am going to start a thread on "Why do I keep backsliding?"

    I know it will be opening a can of worms, but I would like to resolve this problem of mine. Would you please enter into that thread and give us all more wisdom from the Lord?

    Thanks Andrew. :wave:
     
  16. Rainbow Joy Promises

    Rainbow Joy Promises Queen of Typos

    72
    +0
    Hi everyone,
    Can you help me out with something? There are a couple of verses in Hebrews about this topic that bother me.

    The first one is in Hebrews 10. It says that if we continue sinning after receiving full knowledge of the truth, then there is no other sacrifice that will cover those sins. So if we know something is a sin, and we slip up on impulse, how does this verse apply or not apply?

    The other one is (I'm not sure where it's located) referring to the person in the Old Testament who sold his birthright for a single meal. The next verse says that "it was too late for repentance, even though he wept bitter tears." It's a scary thought to me, but is there ever a time for Christians when it's too late for repentance?
     
  17. Rainbow Joy Promises

    Rainbow Joy Promises Queen of Typos

    72
    +0
    So does it mean that because I have a contrite heart and that I'm sorry for my sins that I have nothing to worry about?
     
  18. mammasan777

    mammasan777 Member

    198
    +0
    I want some opinions on this. Don't hold back on me, I am serious about wanting to learn.

    Ever since I was a little girl, about 5yrs, I have felt the hand of God on my life. I didn't understand then that He was drawing me, my parents believed I should find my own way(they were not christians). I prayed the prayer of salvation when I was 12 yrs old, I thought I ment it, but my walk was not one of someone who truley gave it to Him. Over the years, He still drew me, I would feel conviction and fear, pray the sinners prayer AGAIN AND AGAIN. Then, one day in a new church, He spoke to me, I met Him, and I truley gave my life to Him. I was filled with Him, I wanted to explode with His joy!! Since then, I feel His gentle conviction when I sin, I trust Him, His Word is my guide. I don't believe that all the other times that I prayed that sinners prayer that I was saved. Not until I truley gave my life to Him, and some of the evidence is that I do not want to sin(although, like Paul, my fleshy side does want to!!) I believe that NOW I am saved. Just because I said that prayer didn't make me saved. Giving my life to Him did.
     
  19. mammasan777

    mammasan777 Member

    198
    +0
    The first scripture I cannot yet comment on, as I have to get my Bible and read first, but the second was when Esau sold his birthright, material things, to his brother Jacob for a bowl of stew. It was to late for him to repent, which means to turn away from and go another direction, because once you sell something, it is gone unless the buyer would be willing to sell it back. It was to late to change his mind and get his earthly inheritance back. We see later in the story, that Jacob tricks thier father into giving him Esau's spiritual birthright as well.

    When we sin, we can ask our Father for forgiveness, and He is faithful to forgive us, but there might still be consequences to pay. When we ask for forgiveness, we must also repent.
     
  20. mammasan777

    mammasan777 Member

    198
    +0
    I am not really what one would call a new christian, but I am searching for clarity on the once saved, always saved question. I have not found one scripture yet that solidly says that we are always saved. The scripture that says nothing can separate us from the love of God, does not mean always saved. God sent His Son because He so loved THE WORLD. Nothing can make Him stop loving humanity, believers and unbelievers. But, there will be those who will perish in hell, or eternal separation from God. Doesn't mean He didn't love them. I could go on, but I am really hoping to get some opinions here.
     
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