some would say that works consistent with salvation are those things that are done in the power of the HS...as per Ephesians 1:13-14 you quote above and 2 Corinthians 1:21-22...how do you argue that away?"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." John5:24 It's a done deal! They have believed in vain who abandoned the gospel of salvation by faith apart from works, salvation as a free gift, for a salvation by works gospel, a salvation contingent upon one's performance. For such people abandon trust in Christ and rather trust in themselves, their own works to save them.
"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" Eph 1:13,14
"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." 2Cor 1:21,22
You should know then:I am one of the few people who are not God -- so I wouldn't know what He experiences at once.
Salvation is already done.
This is encouragement to those who know the true Gospel of Jesus which is salvation apart from works. I have no time to waste with the wisdom of men that will throw away God’s word using man made wisdom to dismiss what they don’t want to believe. So I will not waste my time responding to those who pursue works salvation.
Salvation is a gift. (Eph 2:8 You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God.) You did not save yourself, well if you did not save yourself that in and of itself tells us that salvation has nothing to do with what we do in order to obtain it outside of believing it. Anything that you have to do in order to receive a gift makes it a trade and not a gift. Therefore this teaching of repent of sin (which does not exist in the Bible) in order to get salvation is a lie of the devil. Furthermore, how can it be that one would have to turn from sin to obtain something already done and given.
God was in Christ, was is past tense; making peace, when was that done, when Jesus died and rose again. Salvation was already done before we was even born. (2Co 5:19 I mean that God was in Christ, making peace between the world and himself. In Christ, God did not hold people guilty for their sins. And he gave us this message of peace to tell people.)
Now consider who God is. (1Jn 4:8 ...God is love.) God is love, so if we can find a definition of what love is we can then come to understand not only the person of God but also is nature and character and what to expect from him. (1 Cor 4-7: 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.)
Pay close attention to love is not self seeking. Therefore God is not seeking for anyone to do works be it for salvation or to prove your salvation. God is not seeking anything for himself from you other than just have faith in him. Love keeps no record of wrongs. Now that is the pinnacle of one of the greatest statements we could grab a hold of. All our sins are paid for and erased past, present and future. Love keeps no record of wrongs. When was that done, at the cross. And to whom was this given, to the world (Jn 3:16). The fact it was done for the world and before time began then every sin was dealt with and erased to those who will believe.
Love always protects. Love is protecting your eternal life. Once by faith we have accepted the free gift of salvation that was already done, then love comes in and protects you. What is love going to protect you from? Everything that comes to harm the object of one’s love. And what would be the greatest harm that could ever come to anyone, to be cast into hell. Therefore, God’s plan of salvation included the greatest protection plan, to preserve all of His children unto His heavenly kingdom.
How about a couple more questions added, like what are we saved to?What is salvation
What are we saved from
And why are we saved
And can you be saved more than once?
Give scripture
You should know then:
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." John5:24 It's a done deal! They have believed in vain who abandoned the gospel of salvation by faith apart from works, salvation as a free gift, for a salvation by works gospel, a salvation contingent upon one's performance. For such people abandon trust in Christ and rather trust in themselves, their own works to save them.
"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" Eph 1:13,14
"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." 2Cor 1:21,22
you asked me what I thought works were...so direct answer...as I have studied works, as in the expression of our Love and appreciation for God's saving grace...works are those things that are righteous. The real question is how we want to define righteousness...the short answer is that which is right but I think that definition leaves a lot to be desired and I haven't yet figured out a better definition...maybe obedience but then again that leaves out many things in most peoples minds like helping one another even though that would be consistent with obedience most people don't see it that way which leaves that definition somewhat wanting....we could define it as Love but then again we have the same problem of people not understanding what it mean....we could also define righteousness as living in the power of the indwelling HS which is maybe my favorite but again, way too many people would misunderstand.
So there is the direct answer, does it help?
maybe a question worthy of our time and energy would be what is righteousness and how is it related to good works which btw, we are told in scripture to be doing without growing weary...if we grow weary of doing good works (whatever we decide they are) what does that say about our relationship with the living God?
Works which involve our cooperation are works which are dependent up us. Works which depend one us are our works. If it's God's work we're talking about it's God's responsibility and not ours.some would say that works consistent with salvation are those things that are done in the power of the HS...as per Ephesians 1:13-14 you quote above and 2 Corinthians 1:21-22...how do you argue that away?
See post #28Works which involve our cooperation are works which are dependent up us. Works which depend one us are our works. If it's God's work we're talking about it's God's responsibility and not ours.
As salvation is apart from works, those who work to be saved are disqualified. One must not work to be saved in order to be saved. "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5
Those who have been saved go on to do works of faith not to be saved, nor to maintain their salvation status, but simply because it's the right thing to do. Those who claim to believe, but then go on to work to maintain their alleged salvation status have not yet come to believe in Christ.
Works which involve our cooperation are works which are dependent up us. Works which depend one us are our works. If it's God's work we're talking about it's God's responsibility and not ours.
As salvation is apart from works, those who work to be saved are disqualified. One must not work to be saved in order to be saved. "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5
Those who have been saved go on to do works of faith not to be saved, nor to maintain their salvation status, but simply because it's the right thing to do. Those who claim to believe, but then go on to work to maintain their alleged salvation status have not yet come to believe in Christ.
And there are those who may claim to hear, but don't have ears to hear, having been caught up with a performance based salvation concept, thinking that they can be saved by their own compliance to law. Like when the man came up to Jesus and said, "good teacher" and Jesus responded that there is no one good but God, but as the man thought he could be justified by law Jesus challenged him along those lines.Both those verses say who "hears my words",
Wouldn't that be the commandments of Christ, including "go and be perfect"?
okay, let me ask you a question...if God told you to go talk to Joe and you didn't, would that be a sin? What if God told you to go talk to Joe and you did? would that be a work? I honestly think you are trying to split hairs to adjust for those who do not want to listen to what is being said and that is as big a problem as not listening.We just have a disagreement on what works are, so for the purpose of the point I'm trying to make, best separate the two.Works are things we do, not sinning is something we don't do. Not sinning and works are both good things, and make us righteous but for this, things need to be narrowed down/separated.
I beg to differ...salvation is not about heaven...heaven is a reward that comes from salvation but salvation is about life...it is about being set free from the bondage of both sin and death...consider Romans 6 and many others....salvation is about life not heaven and the sooner we understand this, the sooner our relationships with Christ can flourish...The confusion has already been created by those who insist they are the same, it's all works, but to go to the next step it's easy to prove both are necessary to get to heaven.
and now who are you talking to? Part of the problem you and I are having is that we are including two different things in our posts that the other is not talking about.First, Faith without works is dead...period, and those who want to ignore that, and say just saying they have faith and nothing else, will save them...they seal their own fate.
Secondly, I can give lists of sins along with comments those sins will end us up in hell, but most of you have seen them already, and some even try to make up excuses why they don't mean anything for us Christians (and they actually teach that stuff to others). But once again, to ignore the bible's clear meaning for the word of man or others who would rather go on sinning as a lifestyle, so they make up their own little mini religion, or another one of the Devils fakes , their fate is also sealed.
Our choice.
And there are those who may claim to hear, but don't have ears to hear, having been caught up with a performance based salvation concept, thinking that they can be saved by their own compliance to law. Like when the man came up to Jesus and said, "good teacher" and Jesus responded that there is no one good but God, but as the man thought he could be justified by law Jesus challenged him along those lines.
The salvation by works Christian hear Jesus making salvation contingent upon compliance to law. But they fail to hear Jesus say "No one is good but God". For the rest of us with ears, Jesus is using the law, just as Paul said, not as a means to justification but rather to bring conviction of sin to drive this man to God grace. The legalists, good in their own mind, have yet to be challenged enough to drive them to abandon salvation by works and to embrace the grace of the gospel whereby salvation is a free gift apart works.
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