Salvation: God's choice or our choice?

[St_Worm2]

I suspect he or she was sanctioned in the forum and had to reincarnate in another guise so he or she could continue preaching his or her false gospel.

Now that he or she's been outed - it wouldn't surprise me if there was another shape shift in the offing.

Some folks just can't help themselves I guess Sadly, she (he?) is not unique .. Matthew 23:15.

 

[fhansen]

So Jesus says to pick up the cross and follow Him, to get to eternal life.

But it also says in Scripture that God the Father can only call you to God the Son. The only reasons we follow Jesus is if God the Father wills it.

There is also a belief that only the elect chosen by God will follow Jesus.

In that sense...is it really our choice? Or His choice?

And if you think about it, that would mean that even if you try to follow Jesus, if you aren't part of the elect, then you won't be able to follow Him and thus won't receive eternal life. Then you'll burn in Hell for eternity, even if you believed you followed Him.

God wants none to perish, but won't force any to be saved.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

And if we believe in Him we follow His commandments.

Not to earn eternal life, as you said.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

No one said otherwise.

True.

 

[Jesus4Ever]

Not to earn eternal life, as you said.

But if we don't follow His Commandments, then we don't believe in Him, thus we don't have salvation.

 

[St_Worm2]

But if we don't follow His Commandments, then we don't believe in Him, thus we don't have salvation.

Hi J4E, you are correct, NOT following Him is a big part of the evidence that proves someone's claim of salvation to be a false one

Our obedient works, or the lack thereof, is the justification/proof/demonstration of the "kind" of faith we have come to possess, IOW, either "saving" faith or "dead" faith .. see James 2:14-26.

But our works do not/cannot save us We don't follow God's commands to receive eternal life and be saved, we follow His commands because we already are saved (because we are already in possession of eternal life .. e.g. John 5:24).

Yours and His,
David

Ephesians 2 (cf Titus 3:5)
8 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
​

 

[Ron Gurley]

OP: Q1:..."Salvation: God's "choice" or our "choice"?..."

A1: QUICK ANSWER: Some of BOTH!.

GOD'S "ROLE"...the spirit of God DRAWS/CALLS/KNOCKS the spirit of ALL Men.

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means:
‘I desire compassion, and not sacrifice,’
for I did not come to CALL the righteous, but sinners.”

Matthew 22:14
For many are CALLED, but few are chosen.” (by ACCEPTING!)

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me DRAWS him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 11:29
for the gifts and the CALLING of God are irrevocable.

CALLS / DRAWS:
God the Holy Spirit spiritually CALLS/ DRAWS the spirit of Man to receive the gift of salvation by unmerited Grace through spirit-led Faith/BELIEF.

THE PERIL OF NOT ACCEPTING: The natural INNATE tendancy of Man's un-"born again" spirit ("SIN NATURE)" is to REJECT GOD.Either he does not spiritually HEAR God's call, OR or he follows the human tendancy to be self centered, sinful, deceived.
If Jesus "knocks", best invite Him in!.

MAN'S "ROLE": exercise his "free will" to spiritually ACCEPT or REJECT God and His Gracious Provisions.

1 Chronicles 28:9...King David to his wise son upon passing his kingdom
“As for you, my son Solomon,
know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind;
for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts.
If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; BUT
if you forsake Him, He will reject you.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today,
that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So CHOOSE LIFE in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

John 3:36...John the Baptizer on Jesus: CHOOSE
1. He who believes in the Son has eternal (spiritual) life; (BELIEVER)
but
2.he who does not obey (TO BELIEVE IN!) the Son will not see (eternal spiritual) life,
but the wrath of God abides on him.” (UN-BELIEVER)

John 1...CHOOSE!
11 He came to that which was His own, but His own did NOT receive Him.
12 Yet to all who DID receive him,
to those who BELIEVED in his name, he gave the right to become "children of God".(saved believer)
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but "born of God"

Revelation 3:20...CHOOSE!
Behold, I stand at the door and knock;
if anyone hears My voice and opens the door,
I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Revelation 3:20...CHOOSE!
Behold, I stand at the door and knock;
if anyone hears My voice and opens the door,
I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

That was written to a church. It's not an invitation to every person without exception, and it has nothing to do with salvation.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Q1:..."But if we don't follow His (Jesus? God's?) Commandments, then we don't believe in Him, thus we don't have salvation....

A1: Sorry. Those are false doctrines of:
1. perfectly keeping the "LAW" and
2. meriting God's approval by "WORKS"

1.>
James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole (Mosaic)"Law" and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

2.>
Isaiah 64:6...Man's "works" on his own, self righteous
For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

You have the:
2. FOLLOW JESUS UNTO GOOD WORKS = "cart"
before the:
1. BELIEVE unto salvation = "horse"

BELIEVE/spirit-led FAITH => (John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2) unto the salvation EVENT
...>THEN<...
FOLLOW=> (Matthew 16: 24-27; Luke 14:25-33 )through the sanctification PROCESS.

A: BELIEVE...then...FOLLOW

1. There is no spiritual doubt that Jesus the GOD-Man was / is the "substitutionary atonement"
FOR all sins FOR all Men FOR all time.
Grace through Spirit-led BELIEF / FAITH in Jesus the God-Man as the substitute for and savior from sin: >>SALVATION

2. After the salvation EVENT comes the PROCESS of SANCTIFICATION...
the believer is permanently indwelt by God the Holy Spirit to guide and comfort him into the will of God..
SAVED UNTO GOOD WORKS....Trust + Obey + Love + Serve + etc!

JESUS' BIG "IF's"

John 14:15
“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:21,23-24
He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me;
and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and
I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”
...“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word;
and My Father will love him, and
We will come to him and make Our abode (dwelling) with him.He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will abide (dwell) in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

 

[Ron Gurley]

RESPONSE to snippet in post #28..."'But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.'...


Matthew 19:16-18, 25-26
16 And someone (The Unsaved Rich Young Ruler) came to Him and said,

“Teacher, what good THING (works) shall I (me alone) DO that I may "INHERIT" (obtain) eternal (spiritual) life?”

17 And He (Jesus) said to him, (saw in his heart!)
“Why are you asking Me about what (THING) is good? There is only ONE who is good;
but if YOU (you alone) wish to enter into (eternal spiritual) life, keep the "commandments".” (the Mosaic Big 10? Big 2? All of them?)
18 Then he said to Him, “Which ones?”
And He (Jesus) said to him (The Unsaved Rich Young Ruler)

25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said,
“Then who can be saved?”
26 And looking at them Jesus said to them,
“With people this is impossible (to DO THINGS = good works),
but with God all things are possible.”

 

[fhansen]

So Jesus says to pick up the cross and follow Him, to get to eternal life.

But it also says in Scripture that God the Father can only call you to God the Son. The only reasons we follow Jesus is if God the Father wills it.

There is also a belief that only the elect chosen by God will follow Jesus.

In that sense...is it really our choice? Or His choice?

And if you think about it, that would mean that even if you try to follow Jesus, if you aren't part of the elect, then you won't be able to follow Him and thus won't receive eternal life. Then you'll burn in Hell for eternity, even if you believed you followed Him.

Scripture says that God wants none to perish. So that means we're the wildcard in it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Scripture says that God wants none to perish. So that means we're the wildcard in it.

Where does it say that? You are likely reading that into 2 Peter. Here is the context. He is firstly addressing what scoffers are saying about the Lord's return. They are saying that it won't happen. Secondly, Peter is addressing a group of believers. This is not a blanket statement to every person. Context. . .

2 Peter 3:1-10

The Day of the Lord Will Come

[1] This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, [2] that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, [3] knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. [4] They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” [5] For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, [6] and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. [7] But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

[8] But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. [9] The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. [10] But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. (ESV)​

 

[fhansen]

Where does it say that? You are likely reading that into 2 Peter. Here is the context. He is firstly addressing what scoffers are saying about the Lord's return. They are saying that it won't happen. Secondly, Peter is addressing a group of believers. This is not a blanket statement to every person. Context. . .

2 Peter 3:1-10

The Day of the Lord Will Come

[1] This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, [2] that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, [3] knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. [4] They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” [5] For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, [6] and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. [7] But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

[8] But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. [9] The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. [10] But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. (ESV)​

God loves even those who perish. He created them after all-and everything He created is good, made in His own image in the case of man. John 3 tells us that God so loves the world that He sent His only son and Rom 5 tells us that His son died for us while we were yet sinners. That's love. The more we know God the more we know His love-a love for all. As Augustine said, "God loves each of us as though there were only one of us".

That's true understanding of God's relationship with man in general. But He won't force that love upon us even as He mourns like a good Father for those who choose to remain lost. He'll oppose the wicked and proud even as He knows who they were created to be and desires that they would 'turn, and be healed'.

 

[TheSeabass]

So Jesus says to pick up the cross and follow Him, to get to eternal life.

Biblical.

But it also says in Scripture that God the Father can only call you to God the Son. The only reasons we follow Jesus is if God the Father wills it.

There is also a belief that only the elect chosen by God will follow Jesus.

Not biblical

In that sense...is it really our choice? Or His choice?

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev 22:17

And if you think about it, that would mean that even if you try to follow Jesus, if you aren't part of the elect, then you won't be able to follow Him and thus won't receive eternal life. Then you'll burn in Hell for eternity, even if you believed you followed Him.

Not biblical.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus4Ever said:

And if you think about it, that would mean that even if you try to follow Jesus, if you aren't part of the elect, then you won't be able to follow Him and thus won't receive eternal life. .​

Very biblical , potentially , yes , though rarely understood.