Salvation during the tribulation

[JacksBratt]

All or nothing? I don't think so. Do you think Jonah was really swallowed by a big fish? If you do, do you also think Giuseppe was swallowed by a whale?

So, you don't think that Jonah was swallowed by a fish that God created for that purpose?

Just what do you believe?

 

[JacksBratt]

But it says that fornicators and adulterers and thieves and homosexuals wont enter the kingdom of heaven so it sounds like there will be people who believed in jesus but never fully came to repntence and stopped their sin will be left behind so there will be lukewarm believers left behind

Where does it state that?

If you are a sinner, which we all are, and you accept Christ, He covers all your sins... the only unforgivable sin is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit..

 

[JacksBratt]

So basically if you dont get raptured your not a christian or a christian that God saw fit to bring in?

Only Christians will get raptured... Those that are Christians and have already died..... first.. then those that are Christians who are alive....

Anyone that is not taken... has denied Christ and is not Christian.

Can they be saved after that? I don't know... Seems like some of them will refuse the mark... which is basically an agreement to worship Satan.. You cannot be saved if you take the mark..
If you refuse the mark.. they will cut off your head... If you don't get caught.. you will not be able to buy or sell, probably work, travel, feed yourself or your family.... They will pretty much have you sooner or later...

Maybe not taking the mark and losing your head is recognized enough to be saved... I don't know.

 

[Jamdoc]

But it says that fornicators and adulterers and thieves and homosexuals wont enter the kingdom of heaven so it sounds like there will be people who believed in jesus but never fully came to repntence and stopped their sin will be left behind so there will be lukewarm believers left behind

It isn't a works based salvation it's grace. If your sins are forgiven by the atonement of the finished work of Christ on the cross, are you still guilty of that sin? John 3:16 .. note the future tense. It isn't just for past sin, it's for all sin, otherwise what kind of salvation is it if you have to wait until the moment before you die to accept that atonement if it cannot forgive sin after you accept it. The flesh is incapable of being righteous before God. That's what the entire Old Testament shows us, otherwise, God would have given His commandments, and people would have lived by them, and we'd be done with sin already. The fact that we're incapable of it is why we need a savior in the first place.
Our works earn us Hell, Jesus atonement is a gift, not works.
Ephesians 2:8-9
Mind you, if you go on sinning like you were before being saved, and you're not being convicted by the holy spirit, and you're not striving to obey God out of love for Him and wanting to be conformed to Christ's image, that would show that you weren't saved in the first place. A change happens when you're saved in that you feel guilty when you sin, you no longer take pleasure in sin, and you begin to hate sin. It does not mean you will never sin again.
Romans 7 is a great chapter to read about the struggle of the spirit vs the flesh, about how the flesh wants to keep sinning, about how the flesh will continue to sin, and about how Paul's spirit is struggling with it and he considers it doing what he hates. We all fall short of glory, because we're still flesh.
When the rapture happens, we will all be changed. We won't be the same flesh that we are now. 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 that describes the rapture. When it happens, you will be transformed from corruption to incorruptible. Your sins are no longer attributed to you when you believe on the finished work of Jesus Christ, so even if you murdered but then repented and believed on Christ, the world may see you as a murderer, but God does not see you as a murderer. David murdered. David is in heaven now.

 

[JacksBratt]

No but im saying what about the people who did believe that jesus died on the cross but they didnt get raptured? It basically means that they didnt do what they were supposed to do as a christian? And so your not going to heaven?

I believe that only Christians will be raptured.. and... if people did hear the gospel and denied it... or were spoke to about Christ and His saving grace and ignored it.... then they will have no second chance...
For those that never heard before, and on the rare occasion that they are "awakened" to the truth after the rapture, if it comes before all of the tribulation, then they will have the chance to turn down the mark, and be martyred...But.. that's just me.

 

[JacksBratt]

I would encourage you to research Amillenialism..

A Defense of (Reformed) Amillennialism

Many don't believe there will be rapture at the end times - I personally don't believe the Bible is teaching this doctrine at all.

The church should be prepared for tribulations.. so I encourage you to study some more.

So, we are to "encourage each other" by the words that state "you're going through the period of wrath that man has never known before.. and if Christ doesn't stop it.. no flesh would survive?

That's your encouraging words?

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

17 then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.


18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Who is He speaking to? The two Christians that survive seven years of hell on earth with everyone hunting them down to try to get them to take the mark or cut off their heads? Those two... maybe three?

 

[summerville]

So, you don't think that Jonah was swallowed by a fish that God created for that purpose?

Just what do you believe?

Jonah is a wonderful parable.. Its a teaching narrative.

Jonah, Satire and Literal Interpretation | Theopolitical
January 22, 2011 – Theopoliticaljonah-satire-and-literal-interpretation
Jan 22, 2011 · When Jonah is read as a satire, with intentionally crafted elements of irony, mockery and dry humor. The point of Jonah as a satire is a mockery directly of those Jews of the time who reduced God to being a merely tribal deity and indirectly of all who would try to reject God’s acceptance of those who do not deserve it.

Jonah - Early Jewish Writings
www.earlyJewishwritings.com/jonah.html
This time Jonah prefers to obey and goes to Nineveh, where he preaches judgment, so that the inhabitants are converted. In these circumstances God decides to suspend judgment, and this irritates the prophet, who fears that he has cut a bad figure.

The discussion of humour in the Book of Jonah points out that many scholars have recognised the use of irony, parody, and satire in the book, leading some to characterise it as satire.

 

[Hazelelponi]

So, we are to "encourage each other" by the words that state "you're going through the period of wrath that man has never known before.. and if Christ doesn't stop it.. no flesh would survive?

That's your encouraging words?

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

17 then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.


18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Who is He speaking to? The two Christians that survive seven years of hell on earth with everyone hunting them down to try to get them to take the mark or cut off their heads? Those two... maybe three?

If we don't know whats coming we will invite it in, which many Christians are today doing..

If we have some false hope of escaping what not even the Apostles escaped (as if we are somehow better than they, and more deserving of escaping any trial) we will find ourselves unable to stand in the hour we must stand.

 

[summerville]

Only Christians will get raptured... Those that are Christians and have already died..... first.. then those that are Christians who are alive....

Anyone that is not taken... has denied Christ and is not Christian.

Can they be saved after that? I don't know... Seems like some of them will refuse the mark... which is basically an agreement to worship Satan.. You cannot be saved if you take the mark..
If you refuse the mark.. they will cut off your head... If you don't get caught.. you will not be able to buy or sell, probably work, travel, feed yourself or your family.... They will pretty much have you sooner or later...

Maybe not taking the mark and losing your head is recognized enough to be saved... I don't know.

The Mark of the Beast was just Roman coins. They held them in their hands or wore them on a headband. That was the coin of the realm.. the currency of buying and selling. Do you understand? Some of the Jews hated them because they were engraved with the head of Caesar.

 

[Serenity Armstead]

I believe that only Christians will be raptured.. and... if people did hear the gospel and denied it... or were spoke to about Christ and His saving grace and ignored it.... then they will have no second chance...
For those that never heard before, and on the rare occasion that they are "awakened" to the truth after the rapture, if it comes before all of the tribulation, then they will have the chance to turn down the mark, and be martyred...But.. that's just me.

So basically if your left behind and you knew about God and jesus christ & believed in him your not going to heaven? So their will be plenty lukewarm christians here left on earth

 

[summerville]

So basically if your left behind and you knew about God and jesus christ & believed in him your not going to heaven? So their will be plenty lukewarm christians here left on earth

According to the prophets Hal Lindsey and Tim Lahaye......

 

[JacksBratt]

Jonah is a wonderful parable.. Its a teaching narrative.

Jonah, Satire and Literal Interpretation | Theopolitical
January 22, 2011 – Theopoliticaljonah-satire-and-literal-interpretation
Jan 22, 2011 · When Jonah is read as a satire, with intentionally crafted elements of irony, mockery and dry humor. The point of Jonah as a satire is a mockery directly of those Jews of the time who reduced God to being a merely tribal deity and indirectly of all who would try to reject God’s acceptance of those who do not deserve it.

Jonah - Early Jewish Writings
www.earlyJewishwritings.com/jonah.html
This time Jonah prefers to obey and goes to Nineveh, where he preaches judgment, so that the inhabitants are converted. In these circumstances God decides to suspend judgment, and this irritates the prophet, who fears that he has cut a bad figure.

The discussion of humour in the Book of Jonah points out that many scholars have recognised the use of irony, parody, and satire in the book, leading some to characterise it as satire.

The story of Jonah does not follow the pattern of a parable... It is never taught as a parable and is always taught as a real event.

 

[summerville]

The story of Jonah does not follow the pattern of a parable... It is never taught as a parable and is always taught as a real event.

LOLOL. Nope. Jonah hasn't been taught as a real event except in a few fringe Protestant churches that don't require their pastors to be educated .

 

[JacksBratt]

If we don't know whats coming we will invite it in, which many Christians are today doing..

If we have some false hope of escaping what not even the Apostles escaped (as if we are somehow better than they, and more deserving of escaping any trial) we will find ourselves unable to stand in the hour we must stand.

Christ compares the end times to the "days of Noah" and the times of "Sodom and Gomorrah"..

On both occasions, the people saved were physically move to a distance outside or above the destruction that they were being saved from.

He does not compare it to Daniel in the lions den where God protected Daniel.. nor to Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, where they were also in the flame and not hurt... Nor does He compare it to the time of plagues before the exodus....

No, He compares it to two times when the righteous people were removed from the destruction.


What are you going to do for 7 years when you cannot eat, buy food, work, travel, clothe yourself, shelter yourself..... for seven years?

Is Satan going to kill 2.2 billion Christians? Or, are all the 2.2 billion Christians all going to board planes and go to Petra... without being found out?

What?

 

[JacksBratt]

The Mark of the Beast was just Roman coins. They held them in their hands or wore them on a headband. That was the coin of the realm.. the currency of buying and selling. Do you understand? Some of the Jews hated them because they were engraved with the head of Caesar.

So, the scripture is making a blatantly obvious statement... "you will not be able to buy or sell without money" wow... big reveal...

No, the mark is a covenant with the beast.

 

[JacksBratt]

So basically if your left behind and you knew about God and jesus christ & believed in him your not going to heaven? So their will be plenty lukewarm christians here left on earth

Probably.... The bible says that God will send a great deception.. or "allow" a great deception..

I don't think second chances are big on His list.. But that's me.

Why are you so worried? If you are saved... you're fine.

 

[JacksBratt]

LOLOL. Nope. Jonah hasn't been taught as a real event except in a few fringe Protestant churches that don't require their pastors to be educated .

I disagree... I have never ever heard of that story being told as a parable... Don't know where you get your information.. but you cannot just state something and make it true..

 

[Jamdoc]

I believe that only Christians will be raptured.. and... if people did hear the gospel and denied it... or were spoke to about Christ and His saving grace and ignored it.... then they will have no second chance...
For those that never heard before, and on the rare occasion that they are "awakened" to the truth after the rapture, if it comes before all of the tribulation, then they will have the chance to turn down the mark, and be martyred...But.. that's just me.

I believe that God does not only give each person 1 singular chance to believe the Gospel, you can reject a gospel that you hear and still come to believe it later. People change. If you introduce Christianity to a young teen and they reject it, does that mean that 20 years later it's impossible for them to repent? No. Peter denied Christ 3 times in 1 night. He then repented when the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed.
My own testimony on this.
I was not raised by a Christian family, my first introduction to Jesus was when I was about 5 or 6 through the lady that ran my daycare. She tried to tell me based on the old testament, I knew Jesus was the Son of God, and God created the earth, but the message of salvation was lost because she taught a works based salvation, the importance of Jesus Himself was completely lost in the teaching because of the emphasis on works and obedience. What's the point of a savior if you're saving yourself according to theid doctrine? It didn't make sense. Also being that young, a lot of other topics simply did not make sense, praying for the end of the world and the world being destroyed by fire? Before you understand the resurrection, before you understand the new earth, before you understand the second coming of Christ, that sounds like a suicide pact! So yes I rejected their teaching, it didn't help that they abused me, so I saw whatever they were trying to teach as a bad thing because they were bad people.
I didn't come to Christ until I was about 12, and different circumstances happened then. I was friends with neighbors who were Christians and so first off, I'm much more willing to listen to what decent people have to say about Jesus than what people who would abuse me would say. Secondly they got me to go to vacation bible school over the summer, so that I could be properly taught the Gospel by people who knew what they were doing. It made much more SENSE when you realized that the reason we call Jesus the savior is not because He's just the son of God but because He actually went to bat for us and was sacrificed to atone for our sins. That made me realize the greatness and goodness of God where the prior teaching only managed to get through to me that God was just some mean guy in the sky smiting people for making mistakes. THAT is when I believed.

But you see, there are multiple factors at play.
1. The quality of the witness you received. Nobody is perfect, and if they are bad people trying to teach you anything, even a good thing, their teaching will be poisoned by their own shortcomings. The right teacher can be the difference between salvation and condemnation. So always strive to be a better witness when you try to bring others to Christ, their judgement of Christ and your teaching might be skewed because of their judgement of you.
2. False doctrines can muddy up a message to not make sense anymore If you teach an incorrect doctrine is it any wonder why someone would feel your religion makes no sense and rejects it but later converts when they hear better doctrine?
3. The age and maturity of the listener plays a big factor, if a young child or even young teenager rejects the message they just might not be ready for it and understand it yet. Give them time. Revisit the gospel when they're older, when they're more mentally mature and maybe their circumstances have changed. You know how many people converted after they hit rock bottom in their life?

 

[Dave G.]

Not the word rapture itself no, and pre-trib rapture is dubious at best...
but Matthew 24 has the words of Jesus Himself declaring some sort of rapture of the elect.
Matthew 24:31, and 24:40-41 describe what, if not a rapture?

If there is a pre trib rapture it isn't found in Matthew 24 anyway as proved out in Luke 17 and it's parallel verses. Because those in the field, one taken away etc. were taken to a certain destiny: destruction ! Some rapture huh !! So many theologians miss it, no clue what's wrong with them besides terrible teaching.

No, if ( I said if but I leave in the possibility because of this) there is a pre trib it's found in 1 Thessalonians 4. Matthew 24 talks about Jesus' actual return to the earth under a different trumpet call and those on earth then go into the 1000 year reign.. In 1 Thess 4 there is a trumpet call but He only descends to the clouds where we meet Him in the air according to that scripture ( believers both pre passed and alive). A lot of pre trib folks also include 1 Corinthians 15. I haven't so much approached it from there but for sure it's not in Matt 24, without question that's no rapture of the church. 1 Thess 4 pretty much describes it...

So actually study it, don't just pass down what you hear.

 

[summerville]

Christ compares the end times to the "days of Noah" and the times of "Sodom and Gomorrah"..

On both occasions, the people saved were physically move to a distance outside or above the destruction that they were being saved from.

He does not compare it to Daniel in the lions den where God protected Daniel.. nor to Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, where they were also in the flame and not hurt... Nor does He compare it to the time of plagues before the exodus....

No, He compares it to two times when the righteous people were removed from the destruction.


What are you going to do for 7 years when you cannot eat, buy food, work, travel, clothe yourself, shelter yourself..... for seven years?

Is Satan going to kill 2.2 billion Christians? Or, are all the 2.2 billion Christians all going to board planes and go to Petra... without being found out?

What?

Petra and Pella are not the same place. The tribulation was local and its history..