Salvation Cannot be Lost

[OneOfTheMasters]

Continued:

I do not believe a person is eternally secure unless they abide by those IF'S!
Becoming a follower of Jesus is a ccontinuim,we follow as He leads.

If we STOP following,we are LOST to the leadership of Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Some have dealt with it, crucifying it with Christ.
Not all the readers or hearers of this message, or of the exhortations and admonissions, have heard that before.
Not all the readers and hearers have obeyed it...much to their future destruction.

Still missing the point. Your claim is that 2 Cor 5:17 means that the believer NO LONGER has his sinful nature, and therefore can't sin.

Yet Scripture completely refutes that notion.

How did the old nature remain, if the body and soul are made new?

Scripture never says the body and soul are made new. We don't get a new body until the resurrection. 1 Cor 15 explains it.

If believers no longer have a sinful nature, and therefore cannot sin, all the verses warning against sinful behavior and commanding holiness are meaningless.

That's what your view concludes.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I do not believe a person is eternally secure unless they abide by those IF'S!

Do you believe that a person must do certain actions in order to maintain salvation?

If we STOP following,we are LOST to the leadership of Christ.

This is a rather vague comment.

Do you believe that lifestyle affects salvation?

 

[OneOfTheMasters]

Do you believe that a person must do certain actions in order to maintain salvation?


This is a rather vague comment.

Do you believe that lifestyle affects salvation?

See my point is this.......
Is salvation ALL you have?
I have a path,a journey,a walk with Him.
I did NOT stop at salvation,which keeps one a baby!
I went onto the meat and maturity of the word!
I am baptized in the Holy Spirit,which is the teacher and guide of my soul.

I would like to think that I have a crown of life and many rewards waiting for me.

I judge no one,the word and Spirit brings convictions to everyone's " lifestyle" as you say.

If you do not progress beyond just being" saved" you stagnate.

WE CANNOT MAINTAIN SALVATION!
JESUS SAID" IT IS FINISHED"
We can add nothing to nor take away from the price PAID to redeem souls to God.


I will not argue nor debate......final word!
I believe the word of God under the teacher,the Holy Spirit!

 

[FreeGrace2]

See my point is this.......
Is salvation ALL you have?

Of course not.

I have a path,a journey,a walk with Him.

That's what the entire NT is about.

I did NOT stop at salvation,which keeps one a baby!

Right. No growth.

I went onto the meat and maturity of the word!

And you didn't answer any of my questions.

I am baptized in the Holy Spirit,which is the teacher and guide of my soul.

Please explain specifically what you mean by baptism in the Holy Spirit. I'm always curious as to what people think it is.

I would like to think that I have a crown of life and many rewards waiting for me.

You don't have to "think you have" them. You can know you will have them. The Bible tells us how to have them.

I judge no one,the word and Spirit brings convictions to everyone's " lifestyle" as you say.

If you do not progress beyond just being" saved" you stagnate.

right.

WE CANNOT MAINTAIN SALVATION!

Then you are not aware that your previous post suggested that you thought so, by this sentence: "I do not believe a person is eternally secure unless they abide by those IF'S!"

So, what are these "if's" that remove one's eternal security?

JESUS SAID" IT IS FINISHED"
We can add nothing to nor take away from the price PAID to redeem souls to God.

Amen. Unfortunately, your previous post suggested otherwise.

I will not argue nor debate......final word!
I believe the word of God under the teacher,the Holy Spirit!

Sure. Everyone says that on these forums. And there's still a whole lot of erroneous views.

 

[Phil W]

Still missing the point. Your claim is that 2 Cor 5:17 means that the believer NO LONGER has his sinful nature, and therefore can't sin.

If he still has part of the old man he isn't a new creature.

Yet Scripture completely refutes that notion.

It meshes perfectly with 1 John 3:9-10..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

Scripture never says the body and soul are made new. We don't get a new body until the resurrection. 1 Cor 15 explains it.

Not true, as 2 Cor 5:17 states it specifically..."all things".

If believers no longer have a sinful nature, and therefore cannot sin, all the verses warning against sinful behavior and commanding holiness are meaningless.

They are not meaningless to those who haven't been changed, reborn, crucified and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, yet.
They are meaningless only to those who don't fear God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If he still has part of the old man he isn't a new creature.

A "new creation" is easily defined by having a new nature. And "old things" can easily be defined as no longer being a slave to sin, as all unbelievers are.

It meshes perfectly with 1 John 3:9-10..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

What clearly doesn't mess at all is your claim of not having a sinful nature. And 1 John 3:9 perfectly meshes with having a new nature that cannot sin.

Further, Scripture is clear that believers are faced with a choice of whom to present themselves as slaves: to sin or to righteousness.

Your UN-meshed theory is refuted by that.

Not true, as 2 Cor 5:17 states it specifically..."all things".

Haven't you ever considered that your appearance changed NONE AT ALL??

But it appears you want "all things" to just include what you want it to include.

If you want to understand "all things" as comprehensive, then your UN-changed appearance alone refutes your theory. Something you obviously never considered.

 

[JLB777]

Again, how can someone who has been given eternal life PERISH when Jesus was as clear as possible in John 10:28 when He said:

"and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."

Because you misunderstand as to when these are given eternal life, in John 10:28, which is why you never quote the rest of what Jesus said.

You have blatantly ignored the fact that this has been explained to you by many people over the years, yet you continue to quote “half” of Jesus’s statement.

Very Deceitful!

Verse 28 is the result of doing verse 27, which is why verse 28 begins with the conjunction “and”.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

It’s very simple.

Hear My voice, means to listen and do what is heard, whichresults in following Him.


Eternal life is given to those who obey Him as Lord.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9




Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Please explain how a brother who hates his brother, still has eternal life remaining in him, since the scripture so plainly says -

• no murderer has eternal life abiding in him

JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Again, how can someone who has been given eternal life PERISH when Jesus was as clear as possible in John 10:28 when He said:

"and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish.""

Because you misunderstand as to when these are given eternal life, in John 10:28, which is why you never quote the rest of what Jesus said.

I have done that. So your claim here is false. However, John 10:28 doesn't address the WHEN of the giving of eternal life. That's where your theories go off the rails.

We know the WHEN of the giving of eternal life from 2 other verses that are Jesus' very words.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

I have emphasized the word "has" in both verses. The word is in the present tense in the Greek. That means the very MOMENT one believes, meaning they are a believer, HAS eternal life.

So we know from these 2 verses, eternal life is given WHEN a person believes in Christ.

btw, to HAVE eternal life means to POSSESS eternal life. It is a present possession.

And you are invited to prove me wrong by quoting ANY verse that states ANY OTHER time when eternal life is given.

You have blatantly ignored the fact that this has been explained to you by many people over the years, yet you continue to quote “half” of Jesus’s statement.

Very Deceitful!

Verse 28 is the result of doing verse 27, which is why verse 28 begins with the conjunction “and”.

Are you still on this tired old theory? What you have blatantly ignored is proving your theory about v.28 being "the result of doing v.27". There are NO WORDS in v.27 that result in anything about v.28.

What you have also blatantly ignored is the fact that v.27 is either a description (NOT a causative) of what Jesus' sheep DO, or a policy statement of what Jesus' sheep OUGHT TO DO.

This is extremely obvious. Your theory just doesn't hold any water, because there are NO words that create a conditional clause. I would suggest you research what a conditional clause is, and how to identify them. Since you don't, currently.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Again, there are NO WORDS that create a conditional clause or statement. Your theory crashes on that fact.

The red words in v.27 are the things that Jesus' sheep DO, or OUGHT TO DO. Nothing more.

It’s very simple.

It sure is. Yet, you still struggle.

Hear My voice, means to listen and do what is heard, whichresults in following Him.

Clearly. And, just as clearly, listening and following are what His sheep DO, or OUGHT TO DO.

Eternal life is given to those who obey Him as Lord.

This statement just rips the truth right out of the verses and tramples it down.

Eternal life is given to His sheep. What you haven't proven, because you CAN'T prove, is that listening to and following is the criteria for being His sheep.

We know who HAS eternal life from John 5:24 and 6:47.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6;47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Now, let's combine these 2 verses with John 10:28:

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

From John 5:24 and 6:47 we KNOW that the blue words in 10:28 refers to believers.

It is believers who are Jesus' sheep.

And Jesus' sheep SHALL NEVER PERISH. Because they have been given eternal life.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

Let's look at a Greek lexicon.

Cognate: 5219 hypakoúō (from 5259 /hypó, "under" and 191 /akoúō, "hear") – properly, to obey what is heard (literally, "under hearing"). See 5218(hypakoē).

5219 /hypakoúō ("obey") is acting under the authority of the one speaking, i.e. really listening to the one giving the charge (order). 5219 /hypakoúō ("to hearken, obey") suggests attentively listening, i.e. fully compliant (responsive).

So, what, specifically has Jesus said that needs to be heard and obeyed, for eternal salvation? There are many verses to choose from.

John 3:15,16
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 - Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Please explain how a brother who hates his brother, still has eternal life remaining in him, since the scripture so plainly says -

• no murderer has eternal life abiding in him

As I explained in the other thread, the concept of "abiding" is one of a reciprocal relationship. As found in John 15:4, where Jesus told His saved disciples, "abide in Me, as I abide in you".

A "reciprocal relationship" is just another way to express FELLOWSHIP, a word that you seem rather un-fond of. Unfortunately.

So, back to your fav verse.

A believer who hates his brother is a murderer and isn't in fellowship with the Lord. Far from it.

 

[Phil W]

A "new creation" is easily defined by having a new nature. And "old things" can easily be defined as no longer being a slave to sin, as all unbelievers are.

"Old things" can also include addictions, any vile lusts, grudges, and all works of the flesh.
All things defining the "old nature".
All these things are "passed away".

What clearly doesn't mess at all is your claim of not having a sinful nature. And 1 John 3:9 perfectly meshes with having a new nature that cannot sin.

What doesn't mesh is your first paragraph and your second paragraph.

If you want to understand "all things" as comprehensive, then your UN-changed appearance alone refutes your theory. Something you obviously never considered.

What changed is that the "appearance" is not of me anymore but of Christ in me. (Gal 2:20)

 

[FreeGrace2]

"Old things" can also include addictions, any vile lusts, grudges, and all works of the flesh.
All things defining the "old nature".
All these things are "passed away".

I have explained as thoroughly as possible what "all things" may entail. You are free to disagree.

What doesn't mesh is your first paragraph and your second paragraph.

What changed is that the "appearance" is not of me anymore but of Christ in me. (Gal 2:20)

Please take some time and explain yourself. What specifically doesn't "mesh" between my first and second paragraph. That's way too vague to figure out. You'll need to be way more clear if you want my response.

However, the words "Christ in me" is exactly what I'm talking about regardin the new nature. But since you aren't receptive to having 2 conflicting natures in you, I'm afraid my explanations are futile.

Gal 5:17 - For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

Please explain what Paul meant in this verse. How does this verse have any relevance to the believer, to whom Paul wrote?

Thanks.

 

[Phil W]

I have explained as thoroughly as possible what "all things" may entail. You are free to disagree.

"Al things" doesn't leave anything out.

Please take some time and explain yourself. What specifically doesn't "mesh" between my first and second paragraph. That's way too vague to figure out. You'll need to be way more clear if you want my response.

Your "points" countered one another.
First you said "A "new creation" is easily defined by having a new nature. And "old things" can easily be defined as no longer being a slave to sin, as all unbelievers are."
But then you flipped with "What clearly doesn't mess at all is your claim of not having a sinful nature. And 1 John 3:9 perfectly meshes with having a new nature that cannot sin."
How can having a new nature...that is no longer a slave to sin clash with my statement that my old sinful nature is gone?
Pick a side and quit playing both sides of the net.
Either the new creature, born of the seed of God, can be free from committing the sins of the old nature, or the seed of God is bringing forth fruit (us) that still commit sin even with a new nature.
What confusion!

However, the words "Christ in me" is exactly what I'm talking about regarding the new nature. But since you aren't receptive to having 2 conflicting natures in you, I'm afraid my explanations are futile.

I can't hold to the doctrine of schizophrenia, or of multiple personalities.
It is a sickness.

Gal 5:17 - For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
Please explain what Paul meant in this verse. How does this verse have any relevance to the believer, to whom Paul wrote?

As the real believers are no longer in the "flesh, but in the Spirit, the conflicts are simply temptations to leave the promises of faith for past worldly pleasures.
Paul exhorts us "not to do" them.
So don't!

 

[FreeGrace2]

"Al things" doesn't leave anything out.

I have nothing more to say. I've said plenty enough.

Your "points" countered one another.
First you said "A "new creation" is easily defined by having a new nature. And "old things" can easily be defined as no longer being a slave to sin, as all unbelievers are."
But then you flipped with "What clearly doesn't mess at all is your claim of not having a sinful nature. And 1 John 3:9 perfectly meshes with having a new nature that cannot sin."
How can having a new nature...that is no longer a slave to sin clash with my statement that my old sinful nature is gone?

You see? It wasn't anything I said about my view that doesn't "mesh". It's your own view that doesn't "mesh".

What you cannot prove from Scripture, other than your misunderstanding of 2 Cor 5:17 is that the old nature isn't gone. If it were, there would be NO NEED of any of the warnings about sinfulness and commands to stop sinning.

I wonder why you seem unaware of the conflict between your "no sin nature" view with Scripture:
Gal 5:16,17
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

There is no way to conclude that the believer no longer has any struggle with his sin nature.

Pick a side and quit playing both sides of the net.

I have. I'm sorry you aren't following.

Either the new creature, born of the seed of God, can be free from committing the sins of the old nature, or the seed of God is bringing forth fruit (us) that still commit sin even with a new nature.
What confusion!

Not at all!! Yes, it is the new nature, not "creature" that is free from sins, and cannot sin, as 1 John 3:9 clearly states. The last part of your statement is what creates confusion. The committing of sin comes from that sin nature.

Why is it so difficult to understand or accept that when we are filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) we aren't going to sin, but when we grieve/quench the Spirit (Eph 4:30, 1 Thess 5:19) we ARE sinning?

These verse have no place in your theory. And you've never explained how they do.

I can't hold to the doctrine of schizophrenia, or of multiple personalities.
It is a sickness.

If that's your real belief, then you might as well charge Jesus Christ as a schizophrenic. Recall that He was fully human (nature) and fully divine (nature).

Do you really not understand that His hypostatic union isn't a condition of schizophrenia?

Or, do you argue that Jesus wasn't truly human, or truly divine? Which is it?

As the real believers are no longer in the "flesh, but in the Spirit, the conflicts are simply temptations to leave the promises of faith for past worldly pleasures.

This explains nothing. But, being "in the Spirit" refers to the indwelling of the Spirit. Not the filling of the Spirit.

But since it seems you disagree, please explain how a person can be filled with the Spirit all the while grieving or quenching that Spirit.

Your theory cannot explain that. Mine does. Easily. The believer either grieves or quenches the Spirit when NOT filled with the Spirit, when NOT in fellowship with the Lord.

When filled with the Spirit, the believer will NOT grieve or quench the Spirit.

Paul exhorts us "not to do" them.
So don't!

And that is again the whole point. The command to "don't" obviously means one CAN.

If one cannot do something, any command to "don't" is simply ridiculous.

 

[Gr8Grace]

As the real believers are no longer in the "flesh, but in the Spirit, the conflicts are simply temptations to leave the promises of faith for past worldly pleasures.
Paul exhorts us "not to do" them.
So don't!

You do know that this crushes your theory right? And explains everything that FreeGrace has tried to explain to you.

At salvation we are in the Spirit. ALL things are new in the Spirit/the new creation........but if we succumb to the previous temptations/ways of the flesh we are IN the OLD again.

What the real tragic thing in this is.........Is the fact that believers are not going to advance in His plan with this ridiculous 'perfection' theory.

 

[Phil W]

You do know that this crushes your theory right? And explains everything that FreeGrace has tried to explain to you.

How can something I posted to refute someone else crush what the bible, and I, say?

At salvation we are in the Spirit. ALL things are new in the Spirit/the new creation........but if we succumb to the previous temptations/ways of the flesh we are IN the OLD again.

Agreed, though it is at the day of conversion, (as salvation won't be assured till the day of judgement), and we are constantly exhorted to remain there.
If one were to succumb to the flesh they were not in the Spirit.

What the real tragic thing in this is.........Is the fact that believers are not going to advance in His plan with this ridiculous 'perfection' theory.

If men have been freed from service to sin, as per Jesus in John 8:32-34, why would they go back to subjugation?
When you were reborn of God's seed, were you not perfect?
If you say no, then God's seed is bringing forth the fruit of the devil.
If you say yes, then why not remain that way?

 

[Phil W]

I have nothing more to say. I've said plenty enough.

Agreed.
While your defense of sin and defiled, so-called Christianity is vigorous, it is also futile.
Servants of God don't accommodate the works of the flesh.
They adhere to the exhortations and warnings written of in the bible in order to illustrate they are indeed in the Spirit, that they love God above all else, and that they love their neighbors as themselves.
False believers make doctrines to escape such duty.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How can something I posted to refute someone else crush what the bible, and I, say?

Here's the rub. What the Bible says isn't what you say. But I understand that's what you think.

If men have been freed from service to sin, as per Jesus in John 8:32-34, why would they go back to subjugation?

Believers are only freed from service to sin when IN fellowship with the Lord, and filled with the Holy Spirit.

When you were reborn of God's seed, were you not perfect?

We were not perfect. We STILL have our human nature, which we don't lose until physical death.

If you say no, then God's seed is bringing forth the fruit of the devil.

The problem is that you fail to understand that the new creature has 2 natures. Just like Jesus. Jesus had a fully human nature and a fully divine nature. And please don't blaspheme by saying that Jesus was schizophrenic, either.

If you say yes, then why not remain that way?

Romans 6:16 tells us very cleary the WHY NOT. We have a choice to make.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I have nothing more to say. I've said plenty enough."

Agreed.

However, the Bible has PLENTY MORE to say about your unbiblical ideas.

If your ideas were valid and biblically based, please explain WHY these verses are directed to believers.

Heb 12:7,8
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father?
8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.

ch 12 is about discipline of God's children. If believers don't have a sinful nature, where is there to be disciplined about. One who is sinless, as you claim, doesn't need discipline. Or do you subscribe to the idea that children who don't misbehave still need to be disciplined.

1 Pet 1:15 - But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;

Why does the Bible command "perfect" believers to be holy? What else would a sinless person be, if not holy?

1 Pet 2:1,2
1 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.
2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,

Why does Peter command "perfect" believers to rid themselves of all malice, deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind, and to crave pure spiritual milk so they can GROW UP in their salvation? What needs to GROW UP in a "perfect" person?

1 Pet 2:11 - Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul.

Again, WHY, oh WHY does the Bible URGE "perfect" believers to abstain from sinful desires? And WHY oh WHY does the Bible mention a "war against our soul" if there aren't 2 competing natures within the believer?

1 Pet 3:8-12
8 Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble.
9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.
10 For, “Whoever would love life and see good days must keep their tongue from evil and their lips from deceitful speech.
11 They must turn from evil and do good; they must seek peace and pursue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”

The red words make NO SENSE for "perfect" believers. Yet, these verses are to the elect of God.

Now, if your ideas are valid and biblical, you should be able to address EACH and EVERY verse and explain how they make sense given your ideas.

But, we'll see.

While your defense of sin and defiled, so-called Christianity is vigorous, it is also futile.

I can't believe how wrong your conclusions continue to be. I've NEVER defended sin.

I've done the exact opposite. I've told you, from Scripture, HOW to deal with sin. By confession of sin for cleansing.

Servants of God don't accommodate the works of the flesh.

I'll wait for your detailed explanation of EACH and EVERY verse I just gave you.

They adhere to the exhortations and warnings written of in the bible in order to illustrate they are indeed in the Spirit, that they love God above all else, and that they love their neighbors as themselves.

I'm still going to wait for your detailed explanation of HOW the verses above make any sense given your idea that believers are perfect.

False believers make doctrines to escape such duty.

This discussion isn't about false believers. That's just a smokescreen for you to hide behind because you cannot defend your baseless ideas from Scripture.

I could go to each epistle in the NT and provide many more verses that tell believers to STOP SINNING. That fact alone sinks your holey ship. Notice I didn't say holy. Your ship is full of holes.

Paul wrote about the struggle within the believer in Gal 5:17 and Peter did in 1 Pet 2:11.

Yet, you have repeatedly denied that FACT.

The ONLY explanation for such a struggle is the FACT that believers have 2 natures, one that is sinful and one that cannot sin.

The issue for each believer is to function from the nature that cannot sin. But you've taken your ideas MUCH farther than Scripture by claiming that believers cannot sin.

The only time believers cannot sin is when they function from the new nature.

But, I'll wait for your detailed explanation of HOW each and every verse I've given in this post applies to believers, given your ideas.

 

[Gr8Grace]

I said:
"I have nothing more to say. I've said plenty enough."

However, the Bible has PLENTY MORE to say about your unbiblical ideas.

If your ideas were valid and biblically based, please explain WHY these verses are directed to believers.

Heb 12:7,8
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father?
8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.

ch 12 is about discipline of God's children. If believers don't have a sinful nature, where is there to be disciplined about. One who is sinless, as you claim, doesn't need discipline. Or do you subscribe to the idea that children who don't misbehave still need to be disciplined.

1 Pet 1:15 - But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;

Why does the Bible command "perfect" believers to be holy? What else would a sinless person be, if not holy?

1 Pet 2:1,2
1 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.
2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,

Why does Peter command "perfect" believers to rid themselves of all malice, deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind, and to crave pure spiritual milk so they can GROW UP in their salvation? What needs to GROW UP in a "perfect" person?

1 Pet 2:11 - Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul.

Again, WHY, oh WHY does the Bible URGE "perfect" believers to abstain from sinful desires? And WHY oh WHY does the Bible mention a "war against our soul" if there aren't 2 competing natures within the believer?

1 Pet 3:8-12
8 Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble.
9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.
10 For, “Whoever would love life and see good days must keep their tongue from evil and their lips from deceitful speech.
11 They must turn from evil and do good; they must seek peace and pursue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”

The red words make NO SENSE for "perfect" believers. Yet, these verses are to the elect of God.

Now, if your ideas are valid and biblical, you should be able to address EACH and EVERY verse and explain how they make sense given your ideas.

But, we'll see.


I can't believe how wrong your conclusions continue to be. I've NEVER defended sin.

I've done the exact opposite. I've told you, from Scripture, HOW to deal with sin. By confession of sin for cleansing.


I'll wait for your detailed explanation of EACH and EVERY verse I just gave you.


I'm still going to wait for your detailed explanation of HOW the verses above make any sense given your idea that believers are perfect.


This discussion isn't about false believers. That's just a smokescreen for you to hide behind because you cannot defend your baseless ideas from Scripture.

I could go to each epistle in the NT and provide many more verses that tell believers to STOP SINNING. That fact alone sinks your holey ship. Notice I didn't say holy. Your ship is full of holes.

Paul wrote about the struggle within the believer in Gal 5:17 and Peter did in 1 Pet 2:11.

Yet, you have repeatedly denied that FACT.

The ONLY explanation for such a struggle is the FACT that believers have 2 natures, one that is sinful and one that cannot sin.

The issue for each believer is to function from the nature that cannot sin. But you've taken your ideas MUCH farther than Scripture by claiming that believers cannot sin.

The only time believers cannot sin is when they function from the new nature.

But, I'll wait for your detailed explanation of HOW each and every verse I've given in this post applies to believers, given your ideas.

It seems some have a very limited idea of what perfection and holiness really are.

 

[Phil W]

Here's the rub. What the Bible says isn't what you say. But I understand that's what you think.

Are you now posting under two names?
That wasn't addressed to you.

Believers are only freed from service to sin when IN fellowship with the Lord, and filled with the Holy Spirit.

A condition that need not ever end.

We were not perfect. We STILL have our human nature, which we don't lose until physical death.

Only those who have yet to be reborn of God's seed have a "human" nature.
The reborn have killed the old man and all that was about him at their water baptism into Christ and into His death. (Rom 6:3-6)

The problem is that you fail to understand that the new creature has 2 natures. Just like Jesus. Jesus had a fully human nature and a fully divine nature. And please don't blaspheme by saying that Jesus was schizophrenic, either.

What you fail to understand is the word "new".

Romans 6:16 tells us very cleary the WHY NOT. We have a choice to make.

I've made my choice.
I hope you make the the same choice some day soon.