Salvation Cannot be Lost

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So no matter what evil you might do in the future, your Salvation is assured..?

That happens to be one of the most dangerous and false teachings associated with religious people on earth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Your gues is quite incorrect. I was speaking in reference to the passive voice of the Greek language. It means the action is produced from an outside source; iow, not your own action. Like salvation."

So it is a forced faith, a forced belief, and a forced salvation.

I hardly know what to say. You surely are having a very difficult time following any part of this discussion. I said NOTHING about anything being forced. I said PASSIVE.

I know that I wasn't forced to love God above all else and love my neighbor as I love myself.

No one is. Your salvation is passive in the sense that it is God who saves YOU. You don't save yourself. That's what the passive voice in the Greek means.

Of course your doctrine sorrowfully dispenses with that all together.

Sorrowfully, you haven't been following very much of what I post.

The definition of "repent" that I use, from the Strong's Concordance is "Turn from", or, "Change".

Find an actual Greek lexicon. The Greek word is "metanoia" and combines "change" with "mind". Or, "change of mind".

If you turn from sin it must be 100%, or it is just a partial "turn" or "change".

It applies to EVERY sin that is an issue. This isn't some kind of a one time deal, as you suggest.

You proved nothing. You just keep saying the same wrong thing over and over again with a false belief it is true.

No, it seems to me that your understanding of Scripture is about the same as your understanding of my posts.

2 Cr 5:17 says..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new".
That includes nature.

YES. We have a new nature. What you won't admit, though the Bible says we do, we still have the original sin nature.

Why would we be commanded to do something that doesn't matter, as we already have salvation locked up no matter what or who we obey? (According to your doctrine)

Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. Don't you see what He was saying? Once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. Period.

You have to explain John 10:28 and PROVE He didn't mean that.

Not everyone reading scripture has been reborn; and Jesus', Paul"s, Peter's, John's, and James' commands allow them to see the expected way reborn, repentant, lovers of God are to act.
You have trouble with commandments because it doesn't mesh with your "passive" doctrine of "God does it all for us".
He is no respector of persons.
If we disobey Him, we perish.

I guess you don't realize that your faith is in yourself, not in Christ.

What's the point of faith in Christ if salvation is ultimately by your own efforts??

In your theology, Christ died for nothing.

GAl 2:21 - I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

This verse applies directly to your own efforts in thinking they will save you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And I've refuted them with scripture, and you attack them.

Wrong. You have demonstrated your nearly complete misunderstanding of what I post.

Like what Peter said in Acts 2:38? ..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Not much "passivity" there.

If you are referring to receiving th gift of the Holy Spirit, it's VERY passive. You have NO part in putting God's Spirit into yourself.

But, if you think you do, please explain how you do this and what verse informs you?

We are told to do something for salvation.

Yes, we are told to believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Paul's answer to the jailer's question: "sirs, what MUST I DO to be saved?" Acts 16:31

What would your answer have been?

btw, the words "will be saved" is in the passive voice.

iow, you DON'T save yourself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That happens to be one of the most dangerous and false teachings associated with religious people on earth.

Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. No conditions on recipients of eternal life.

How do you explain that?

 

[Phil W]

This tells me that you do not understand grace at all. Since Jesus died for ALL sin, there is NO sin that can effect our salvation.
And, speaking of the future, this is what Paul said about the future:
Rom 8:38,39
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

iow, there is NOTHING that occurs either NOW or in the FUTURE that will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ.
I once had a poster tell me that God will love the sinful believer even in hell.

"Believer" in hell?
Did you set him, according to your doctrine, straight?

So, please don't patronize me with that bit of nonsense.

You are writing like sin can be inserted into Christ.
That can't happen.
Those in Christ cannot commit sin. (1 John 3:9)
Sinners are not in Christ.
They hate God. (Matt 6:24)

If men turn from sin, and get their past sins washed away, they will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Until that happens, they are not the temple of the Holy Spirit.
They are not "in Christ".

 

[Phil W]

If you are referring to receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, it's VERY passive. You have NO part in putting God's Spirit into yourself.

None but getting the future temple sanctified, as God will not reside in a polluted temple.
That sanctification happens at out "immersion" into Christ's death.

But, if you think you do, please explain how you do this and what verse informs you?
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Yes, we are told to believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Paul's answer to the jailer's question: "sirs, what MUST I DO to be saved?" Acts 16:31
What would your answer have been?

You posted the words I would have cited...In answer to the question "What don't I have to do..."
But wait a sec...he is doing some things for salvation !
What are they?
Believing and getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

btw, the words "will be saved" is in the passive voice.

So what?
BTW, You have posted that they are saved after....believing.
A deed done by the man.

iow, you DON'T save yourself.

Agreed.
We obey the commandments of Jesus' apostles who told us of repentance of sins and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ to wash them away.
Of enduring till the end and manifesting the Lord's death till He comes back.
All deeds we do in accordance to the One who has the final say in our future salvation on the day of judgement.
Want to be saved?
Obey the Lord and His disciples.

 

[Phil W]

Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. No conditions on recipients of eternal life.
How do you explain that?

None, except they must be following Him, (John 10:27)

 

[S.ilvio]

This tells me that you do not understand grace at all. Since Jesus died for ALL sin, there is NO sin that can effect our salvation.

And, speaking of the future, this is what Paul said about the future:

Rom 8:38,39
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

iow, there is NOTHING that occurs either NOW or in the FUTURE that will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ.

I once had a poster tell me that God will love the sinful believer even in hell.

So, please don't patronize me with that bit of nonsense.

Wow. So according to your Theology. You can now down 100 folks in a Church today, with no repentance and still have your Salvation assured???

Wow......

 

[FreeGrace2]

I sid:
"I once had a poster tell me that God will love the sinful believer even in hell."

"Believer" in hell?
Did you set him, according to your doctrine, straight?

When I have an opportunity to share the truth with someone, I always take it.

You are writing like sin can be inserted into Christ.

No. Quite the contrary. And you are "listening" like you're not hearing anything.

[QUOETEThat can't happen.
Those in Christ cannot commit sin. (1 John 3:9)[/QUOTE]
See? Here is another example of your contradictory theology. Out of one side of your mouth you claim you CAN choose not to sin. But out of the other side of your mouth you claim you cannot sin.

You can't have it both ways. And all the verses I've shared (truth) with you prove that believers can and do sin, and is why they are commanded NOT TO.

Your claim that you cannot sin is unbiblical, as I've shown clearly and repeatedly.

Sinners are not in Christ.

Scripture refutes your views.

If men turn from sin, and get their past sins washed away, they will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Wrong again. Gal 3:2 and 5 say that when people believe in Christ for salvation, they receive the Holy Spirit.

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Doesn't it bother you that so many of your views are refuted directly by Scripture?

Until that happens, they are not the temple of the Holy Spirit.
They are not "in Christ".

Here is more proof (truth) from Scripture.

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But wait a sec...he is doing some things for salvation !
What are they?
Believing and getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

Nope. Believing and receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit (His indwelling and sealing).

BTW, You have posted that they are saved after....believing.

Do you think salvation precedes believing???

A deed done by the man.

Believing is NOT a "deed". It is a response to God's promise.

Want to be saved?
Obey the Lord and His disciples.

Then, just to be clear, you disagree with Paul's answer to the jailer's question?

Acts 16:30-31
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

I'm always amazed at how much you disagree with Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. No conditions on recipients of eternal life.
How do you explain that?"

None, except they must be following Him, (John 10:27)

I suggest you read more carefully. v.27 is a description of what His sheep DO. btw, to be clear, there is NO WORDING that even suggests that what they DO is WHY they become His sheep. That was made clear back in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

From many other verses, we know that salvation is through faith. Just like entering through the gate in v.9. So v.9 speaks of faith in Christ as the means of becoming one of His sheep.

v.27 is a description of what believers DO, or OUGHT TO DO. There, again, are NO WORDS to suggest a condition for His sheep to never perish. That's just very poor reading.

In order to support your claim of a "condition" for never perishing from v.27, you're going to have to show the exact wording in v.27 that IS a conditional clause. You're not going to find one.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Wow. So according to your Theology. You can now down 100 folks in a Church today, with no repentance and still have your Salvation assured???

Wow......

What in the world do you mean by I "can now down 100 folks..."???

Maybe this is a typo, but if it is, I can't figure out what you really meant.

So please explain your error.

btw, salvation is assured by what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life in John 10:28.

If you want to see a condition for never perishing in the Bible, John 10:28 is the perfect verse.

The condition for never perishing is to receive the gift of eternal life.

Clear as can be. Period.

 

[S.ilvio]

What in the world do you mean by I "can now down 100 folks..."???

Maybe this is a typo, but if it is, I can't figure out what you really meant.

So please explain your error.

btw, salvation is assured by what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life in John 10:28.

If you want to see a condition for never perishing in the Bible, John 10:28 is the perfect verse.

The condition for never perishing is to receive the gift of eternal life.

Clear as can be. Period.

Mow down.

Now twist you way out of it now...

 

[Phil W]

I sid:
"I once had a poster tell me that God will love the sinful believer even in hell."

[QUOETE]That can't happen.
Those in Christ cannot commit sin. (1 John 3:9)

See? Here is another example of your contradictory theology. Out of one side of your mouth you claim you CAN choose not to sin. But out of the other side of your mouth you claim you cannot sin.[/QUOTE]
I can't, if you want to remain in Christ. Or to be a Christian.
But you can quit being a Christian.

You can't have it both ways. And all the verses I've shared (truth) with you prove that believers can and do sin, and is why they are commanded NOT TO.

Commands that mean nothing to those adhering to your doctrine.
As you state..."I'm saved and nothing can change that".

Your claim that you cannot sin is unbiblical, as I've shown clearly and repeatedly.

Not if you are born of God, we can't.
There are plenty of fakers out there though, and they are identified by their falling away, sin, iniquity, and whatever else is contrary to the doctrine which is according to Godliness.

Wrong again. Gal 3:2 and 5 say that when people believe in Christ for salvation, they receive the Holy Spirit.

If they believe, they will do what the apostles said to do, ie. repent of sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins; it is then that the gift of the Holy Ghost is given. (Acts 2:38)

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
Doesn't it bother you that so many of your views are refuted directly by Scripture?

"My" views don't go against what the scripture writers presented.
I didn't receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, but by my obedience to the exhortations of Peter in Acts 2:38.
I turned from sin and had the temple washed of sin by the blood of Christ at my baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

Here is more proof (truth) from Scripture.
Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:13-14) KJV
I really don't care for your version of what the apostle really wrote.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You said:
" So according to your Theology. You can now down 100 folks in a Church today, with no repentance and still have your Salvation assured???"

Mow down.

Now twist you way out of it now...

Ah, nothing like some clarity. Thanks for the correction.

btw, what's to twist here? Just because you don't seem to like God's grace, why would I even want to "twist" my way out of His grace promises.

Speaking of which, I came across another eternal security verse in church today. What did you learn in church today?

Rm 4:16 - Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

OK, define/explain what "the promise" is. That is, from the context that begins back in ch 3.

Next, explain how this promise, which comes by faith, and by grace, is GUARANTEED to all Abraham's offspring.

Oh, and explain who Abraham's offspring is. The green words.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"See? Here is another example of your contradictory theology. Out of one side of your mouth you claim you CAN choose not to sin. But out of the other side of your mouth you claim you cannot sin."

I can't, if you want to remain in Christ. Or to be a Christian.

Still can't see your contradiction, huh. If you CAN'T sin, then there is no reason for any command to stop sinning. And the Bible commands believers to stop sinning.

But you can quit being a Christian.

Does God quit with what He began in you? If so, you are going to have to provide any verse/passage that in plain language says so.

In the meantime, here is a verse for you to meditate on:

Phil 1:6 - being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Please explain how the red words don't teach eternal security.

Commands that mean nothing to those adhering to your doctrine.

Apparently you either failed to read my posts about God's painful discipline, or you have simply rejected it out of hand. Doesn't matter. They mean everything. They explain how to be blessed in this life and rewarded in the next. Or lose both.

As you state..."I'm saved and nothing can change that".

Is your lifestyle bigger than God?

Are you bigger than God?

Not if you are born of God, we can't.

More contradiction. The commands mean nothing to one who can't sin.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:13-14) KJV
I really don't care for your version of what the apostle really wrote.

Now this is quite interesting. I quoted 2 verses, Eph 1:13,14.

So, what are you talking about with this "my version" stuff?? There is no version here. Just the Word of God, plainly.

Can you exegete these 2 verses for me? I can't imagine what you think they mean.

 

[Phil W]

Nope. Believing and receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit (His indwelling and sealing).

I didn't see where Paul witnessed their speaking in tongues and prophesying after receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost like he did for the twelve at Ephesus.
The baptism the jailer submitted to was water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins...then, if his repentance was true, he would have received the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Do you think salvation precedes believing???

Nope, but it may occur after we "do something".
Hearing, believing, confessing, repenting, getting baptized int the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins and the final judgement on the day of Christ all precede salvation.

Believing is NOT a "deed". It is a response to God's promise.

Responding is a deed as much as believing is.

Then, just to be clear, you disagree with Paul's answer to the jailer's question?

Not at all.
He believed what he heard from Paul, and got baptized.
We know for sure that he did these parts of Peter's exhortation in Acts 2:38, but his ultimate salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement.
It will be then determined if his turn from sin was real or not.

Acts 16:30-31
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
I'm always amazed at how much you disagree with Scripture.

I agree with what is written, but not that it is the full story.
Repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Christ Jesus is worthless without belief.
He first "heard", and second "got baptized".
A good start!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Believing is NOT a "deed". It is a response to God's promise."

Responding is a deed as much as believing is.

Thanks for clearing up what I suspected anyway. You have no idea what a "deed" is. It's not just any kind of action.

It's an action that creates a debt or obligation. That's what Paul said in Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

The red words are where you think and live. Or works-righteousness.

The blue words are where I think and live. My righteousness is based on faith in Christ.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. No conditions on recipients of eternal life.
How do you explain that?"

Eternal life will be received at the final judgement.
There are plenty of "conditions, starting with "hearing Him".

I suggest you read more carefully. v.27 is a description of what His sheep DO. btw, to be clear, there is NO WORDING that even suggests that what they DO is WHY they become His sheep. That was made clear back in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

His sheep know His voice and "follow Him".

From many other verses, we know that salvation is through faith. Just like entering through the gate in v.9. So v.9 speaks of faith in Christ as the means of becoming one of His sheep.

Agreed, His sheep won't follow Him if they have no faith He is their Shepherd.

v.27 is a description of what believers DO, or OUGHT TO DO. There, again, are NO WORDS to suggest a condition for His sheep to never perish. That's just very poor reading.

There are, however, words describing who His sheep are...those that follow Him.

In order to support your claim of a "condition" for never perishing from v.27, you're going to have to show the exact wording in v.27 that IS a conditional clause. You're not going to find one.

"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
That eliminates those who won't listen or hear His voice, and those who won't follow Him.
You seem to be having trouble determining who the sheep are.
Sheep from other herds or shepherds wont follow Christ.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

WONDERFUL !

Eternal life will be received at the final judgement.
There are plenty of "conditions, starting with "hearing Him".

Thus not nearly given to everyone (only "few" according to Jesus, compared to the many on the wide road to destructin) ....

His sheep know His voice and "follow Him".

That's what Jesus Says Clearly. yes. (and HEAR HIS VOICE) (you got this already too, I know)

Agreed, His sheep won't follow Him if they have no faith He is their Shepherd.

"His sheep" have faith. Those who have no faith, are not His sheep. For clarity.
They go to the lake, instead of eternal life.

There are, however, words describing who His sheep are...those that follow Him.

YEs, MANY many many descriptors (adjectives and descriptions God says) OF HIS SHEEP, that few know. Righteousness, Peace and Joy, continually for example.

"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
That eliminates those who won't listen or hear His voice, and those who won't follow Him.
You seem to be having trouble determining who the sheep are.
Sheep from other herds or shepherds wont follow Christ.

Who is able to determine who the sheep are ?
In China, some foreigners have been converted by His sheep, without a word -
their lives are so totally changed, as God requires,
and others SEE THIS, and become immersed in Jesus' Name, converted, and receive, on judgment day, eternal life, if all the requirements Yahuweh has are met (when Yahuweh accomplishes everything concerning Salvation in those who trust Him, and they endure to the end) .