I said:
""wrath" is specifically referring to the condemnation that results in the lake of fire."
That doesn't involve the Christians.
Of course it wouldn't. So why would you even make that comment??
1 thes.5:8-10 "But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him."
The Christians escape the wrath of God by being raptured.
Lk.21:36 "But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Except Paul didn't include Luke's comment in his epistle to the Thessalonians.
You still haven't proven the "wrath" in 1 Thess 5 is just the Tribulation. But regardless, the whole point of 5:4-10 is that lifestyle WON'T effect the believer's ultimate being with Him.
You are on the one hand agreeing with the apostle Paul that Christians will be saved from wrath, but on the other hand disagree because you think that the rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation.
Well, this is a different discussion, and has zero to do with the OP.
So, I'll only address this once. Don't bother replying to this. If you want to discuss further, use the PM or start your own thread, and let me know.
2 These 2-
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
v.1 note the ORDER.
1. "coming of our Lord" this is the Second Advent
2. "our being gathered to Him" this is the so-called rapture
v.3 proves that the Tribulation (rebellion) occurs BEFORE the the Lord's return and the "rapture".
Period.
Your theology contradicts itself.
OK, not that you've gotten that opinion off your chest, please proceed to explain HOW or WHY it does. And please be clear and specific.
Just throwing out opinions or claims means nothing, without any evidence.
2thes.2:1-2 "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come."
That indicates that the Christians will not be on the earth during the Day of the Lord [the Tribulation]
No. I just explained the ORDER of the Second Advent and the rapture.
3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."
Before the King James Version "departure" was the accepted translation. It fits with verse 7 that states, before the anti- Christ can be revealed the restrainer has to be taken out of the way (literally taken from among). There is some debate as to who / what is the restrainer. The best identification of the restrainer is the Body of Christ because it fits with 1thes.4:16-17.
No, it has no relation at all to 4:16,17. That's just your own opinion.
v.3 is a clear and plain language statement that the Lord's return and the rapture will not occur until the Tribulation first.
Falling away or rebellion does not fit with verse 3.
What does "that day" refer to in v.3? Go back to v.1 for the answer.
In 1thes.4:17 says "..then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with Him." The phrase "caught up" is harpazo, in latin it's "rapuro" from which we get the word "rapture".
This passage only describes this gathering to Him, from 2 Thess 2:1. It says NOTHING about timing or when.
So, the gathering together with Christ occurs before the Tribulation.
Please be clear and plain about WHERE in Scripture you get the idea that the "gathering together" occurs before the Tribulation??
In fact, 2 Thess 2:1 REFUTES that opinion.
The believer is promised the redemption of the body as in being changed in the twinkling of the eye and to ascend up into the air to ever be with the Lord.
Yes. When the gathering together occurs. Which is after the Lord comes.
You are mistaking the word "salvation" in that verse to mean: become born again.
Wrong. Salvation is instant WHEN a person believes in Christ for salvation.
But if Christians continue in their lusts of the flesh, then it's as if Christ died for nothing.
No, if salvation is by WORKS, then it is as if Christ died for nothing.
Gal 2:21 - I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
See? That's what I told you.
You are accusing me of earning salvation by works of the law and at the same time thinking that I am denying that the law only applies to the Jews.
No, your own statement is that your lifestyle will determine your eternal destiny, or did you forget your own opinion?
If your lifestyle did determine your eternal destiny, then you yourself are in charge of your own salvation. And lifestyle clearly insinuates effort which is works.
Such contradiction in your arguments are not helping your case.
If there are, then please point them out and explain how or why they are contradictory.
Again, just throwing out claims or charges or opinions does no good.
So according to you anyone relying on the righteous nature of God by means of the new birth.. is operating by the law.
No, I never said that. But if you think I have, then cite the post # and catch my actual words. But I'll give you a hint. I NEVER said any such thing.
You are the one who makes Christ's sacrifice "nothing".
Your opinions are useless without any evidence. Show me HOW I've done what you claim I am doing.
Therefore you condemn yourself of committing blasphemy by your own words.
You are just full of empty claims and charges.
Not possible if you die in sin. Such a condition puts you with all sinners who are judged at the white throne judgement.
Your view isn't possible. Here's why: (see? I explain the WHY in my responses)
When a person believes, they HAVE (that means possess) eternal life.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
Now, based on possessing eternal life WHEN one believes, Jesus said this:
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
That's how Jesus saves people. By giving them eternal life, on the basis of faith in Him, they SHALL NEVER PERISH.
So your opinion isn't biblical.
The only way to avoid that is to be saved now while your still alive.
Which is by faith in Christ, and receiving the gift of eternal life.
In that salvation the sinful nature is replaced with the divine nature of righteousness.
No, it's not. It's very much parallel with our Lord. He was both fully human and fully divine.
The believer is fully human with his original sinful nature, and given a new nature, also called the new birth or regeneration.
Quick sidebar:
When Triune God said, "Let's make man in OUR image", it wasn't in relation to hair and eye color, etc. No. It was directly related to the FACT that the Trinity was in view. So God created man tripartite. Given body, soul, and spirit. What is the spirit for? Jesus told the Samaritan woman:
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the spirit and in truth.” Jn 4:24
iow, a person MUST have a human spirit in order to worship God. In Genesis we know that God told Adam and the woman; in the DAY that you eat of that fruit, you shall DIE.
Did Adam fall dead when he bit into the fruit? No. Do you believe the narrative? Then, what actually died that day? Their human spirits, with which to worship and commune (have fellowship) with God.
So, in the new birth, or regeneration, it is the human spirit that is "made alive" per Eph 2. So man regains a living human spirit.
We know for sure believers are trichotomous by what Paul wrote:
1 Cor 14:15 - So what shall I do? I will
pray with my spirit, but
I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.
So when you die in Christ. You will be raised up to be eternally with the Lord.
The Christian can have only one nature at a time, not two. Not half sinful and half righteous.
I've just shown the opposite.
The Christian life is to rely on God's grace, and exercise faith to walk in righteousness and resist the lusts of the flesh.
Correct. But that can only happen when one is filled with the Spirit. Please don't confuse the indwelling with the filling of the Spirit. They are different.
The sins yielded to are only patterns and habits that must be disciplined and trained to do only right.
No, the believer needs to confess their sins per 1 John 1:9 in order to be back in fellowship.
Heb.5:13-14 "Everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses (conscience) trained to discern good and evil."
As you demonstrated above, you are the one doing that, not me.
Another empty baseless claim. These verses teach that believers need to GROW UP in order to mature in the faith.
Your views clearly indicate that your knowledge of the Word is rather limited, and there is quite a bit of error.
You assume that I don't know..
You keep making that clear by what you post.
but some time ago I've done my own research and study on that verse. The menstruation rags are used in comparison of "doing one's own works of righteousness" is because the blood comes from the flesh. Exactly like one's own good works are of the flesh.
Wow. Way to go in trying to miss the whole point. What you do in your own efforts are seen and smelled as used menstrual rags to God. iow, they stink.
But go ahead and think your lifestyle (efforts) will determine your eternal destiny. But that view is in direct opposition to what Jesus said.
But, Jesus said in part. "The flesh profits nothing."
Yes, and that includes your pitiful lifestyle. No matter how admirable it may seem.
The apostle Paul also wrote. "By the Spirit put to death, subdue, make ineffective the sinful deeds of the body that you may live.
The only way to put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit is to be in fellowship and then filled with the Spirit.
Please explain HOW a believer is filled with the Spirit. And, cite verses to back up your answer. Thanks.
I asked previously:
"Do you know HOW to be filled with the Spirit?"
Do you? Explain what it means. Not because I don't know, but to establish that you do know.
Well, you're quite the dodger. I asked first in order to establish what you know. So you need to answer me, not me answering you.
But don't worry; if your answer isn't biblical, you can be sure I'll correct the matter.
The fact that you don't use scriptures to encourage a Christian to grow to spiritual maturity by overcoming the sinful patterns.. proves my point.
Didn't you see anything? I explained the result of sinful living; loss of eternal reward and divine discipline during our lifetime on earth.
How is that not encouragement?
Wait. What happened to your claim that the Christian has the sinful nature and there's nothing that he can do about it?
Please back up your very empty (and stupid) claims? I never said "there's nothing he can do about it". You're not reading very well, if that's what you think I said.
There's a LOT the believer can do. In fact, MUST DO. First confess sins. 1 John 1:9. Then, be filled with the Spirit.
And I am looking forward to your answer as to HOW to be. The knowledge of this seems in VERY SHORT SUPPLY in modern evangelicalism.
Lets look at that shall we?
11 "No discipline seems enjoyable at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it yields a peaceful harvest of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."
However, as quoted in Heb.6:13-14 .. there's no pain mentioned there.
Who cares that there's no pain menioned in ch 6? So what? Did you NOT see the actual word in Heb 12:11? Or do you just prefer not to see it?
The context of Heb.11 is addressed to the stubborn.
Heb.11:9 "Be subject to the Father of spirits and live."
Can you please stay focused on the proper chapter, which is 12. And v.11.
Such a thing doesn't have to be said to the already obedient child of God.
The point is that not every believer is an obedient child of God.
So, discipline is only painful if you resist yielding to the training. Those who would resist are those who would rather keep their sinful ways.
OK.
But pain doesn't happen to those who yield.
I believe that's the whole point.
Jesus said in Mat.11:28-30 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Don't you have any idea what Jesus was referring to? Why are you quoting these verses? What point do you think you're making?
Jn.8:31-32 "So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
That applies to those who want to keep sinning rather than be obedient to God concerning disciplining their flesh.
No, it ALL applies to those who believed. Just as John wrote. Or didn't you read it slow enough to absorb what he wrote?
Why don't you include that in your original post?
Why "don't" I? Because the post has been written. You could have asked, "why didn't you?".
