Salvation Cannot be Lost

[fwGod]

Freegrace2

For obvious reasons, I won't be discussing with you any further.

 

[JLB777]

This is exactly the point: I don't believe I or any born again Christians can be cut off or lose their salvation. Only ambiguous parables imply they can.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36

• he who does not obey the Son will not see life,

JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

No parabolic language here.

Actually, there is no parabolic language anyway in the Bible.

parabolic:
adjective
having the form or outline of a parabola.
having a longitudinal section in the form of a paraboloid or parabola: a parabolic reflector.
of or relating to a parabola.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Freegrace2

For obvious reasons, I won't be discussing with you any further.

I clearly understand why. And I don't blame you for bowing out.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36

• he who does not obey the Son will not see life,JLB

"not obey" - apietho -
Usage: unbelieving, disobedient, who will not be persuaded.

So, to "not obey" means to "not believe".

In fact, an unbeliever.

 

[Phil W]

Speaking of "seed", let's examine what Scripture says about our seed.

1 Cor 15:42 - So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

You can check for yourself in biblehub.com to see how many English translations use "corruption" and "incorruption".

Which is what I've been telling you all along. You're going to have your body of corruption UNTIL you die. That body that will be raised in resurrection will be a body of incorruption. That's the FUTURE TENSE of salvation; will be saved from the presence of sin.

But since this is all irrelevant for one who actually thinks that Christ's sacrifice doesn't cover your sins, and you have to remain sinless in order to get to heaven, I don't know why I bother.

My body is just a vessel for the Holy Spirit since its death with Jesus Christ.
It isn't "mine" anymore. (Gal 2:20)
BTW, I "get to be" sinless, so I can show God how much I love Him.

 

[Phil W]

Phil W said: ↑
I am the fruit of a seed.
God's seed, and it cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.

Let's see: fruit cup, fruitcake, fruit-loop (cereal).

God's.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

 

[Phil W]

I want to share some more Scripture with you, which you seem to think is "man's wisdom".
1 Cor 12:13 - For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
Obviously this doesn't line up with your opinion about water baptism.

It lines up perfectly.
I hope you are also aware of 1 Cor 6:11..."And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
It isn't the Spirit alone that washes, sanctifies, and justifies us.
It is also the water baptism "in the name of Jesus Christ" for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38)
Where else but in water baptism is one washed "in the name of the Lord Jesus?

The baptism that saves (1 Pet 1:23) is this one: baptized by one Spirit, which forms one body (the body of Christ).

Water and Spirit baptism are inseparable.
God won't abide in a defiled temple.

There is NOTHING in water baptism that does anything other than simply identify the believer as one.

What does dismissing water baptism "identify"?

It's a testimony to others.
It has no regenerative powers or any other kind of power.

Sadly, this is the POV of one defending sinful behavior by alleged Christians.

 

[Phil W]

"not obey" - apietho -
Usage: unbelieving, disobedient, who will not be persuaded.

So, to "not obey" means to "not believe".

In fact, an unbeliever.

It also means "disobedient"...as you posted, but seem to have over-looked.
The disobedient are the unbelievers.
Believers fear God enough to submit to His will.

 

[fwGod]

I clearly understand why. And I don't blame you for bowing out.

I don't see how you could possibly understand my reasons since I didn't specify.

My reason is similar to the following.

I don't need to prove anything since these threads get repeated a lot and no one changes their minds.

For that reason I prefer to limit my replies to no more than three. Not only that but each post was way too long.

When the limit was reached (I deleted all but one that isn't so long), so I announced my decision to discontinue.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My body is just a vessel for the Holy Spirit since its death with Jesus Christ.

Every believer's body is a vessel for the Holy Spirit. But this is what I said:

"But since this is all irrelevant for one who actually thinks that Christ's sacrifice doesn't cover your sins, and you have to remain sinless in order to get to heaven, I don't know why I bother."

And you didn't even bother to correct me, if I'm wrong.

It isn't "mine" anymore. (Gal 2:20)

What you keep ignoring/rejecting is that while the Holy Spirit indwells every vessel, the ONLY WAY to live by His POWER is by being FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT.

I believe I asked you how to be filled with the Spirit? Do you know?

BTW, I "get to be" sinless, so I can show God how much I love Him.

No one "gets to be" anything. The ONLY WAY to be sinless is when you are FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT.

So again, do you know how to be filled with the Spirit?

 

[FreeGrace2]

God's.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

This verse teaches that the born again spirit cannot sin. Because it is "born of God". This is what being born again is about.

But you deny that the believer STILL possesses his body of corruption and remains capable of sinning.

The idea that only unbelievers sin is easily proven false by all the Scripture that shows that believers still struggle with sin.

The fact of your claim that you no longer sin only proves 1 John 1:8 and 10 DO apply to you.

And you can't explain how to be filled with the Spirit, though Paul commands believers to be filled. So, it's a command to OBEY.

And you don't know how.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"1 Cor 12:13 - For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
Obviously this doesn't line up with your opinion about water baptism."

It lines up perfectly.

Hardly. Not from what all you've been posting. Once again, you're going to have to explain yourself here.

I hope you are also aware of 1 Cor 6:11..."And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
It isn't the Spirit alone that washes, sanctifies, and justifies us.

How about a little explanation, ok?

The "washing" along with being sanctified and justified is IN THE NAME OF the Lord Jesus AND by the Spirit of our God.

So, I'll type this very slowly, so as to let it sink in. The "washing" in v.11 is "by the Spirit of our God". There is NO mention of water here.

It is also the water baptism "in the name of Jesus Christ" for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38)
Where else but in water baptism is one washed "in the name of the Lord Jesus?

In the Spirit, just as the verse SAYS.

Don't you remember the words of Jesus?

Matt 3:11 - “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Mark 1:8 - I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
Luke 3:16 - John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Are you trying to tell me the Holy Spirit is "all wet"??? And please explain how water can exist in fire.

Water and Spirit baptism are inseparable.

This is just nonsense, given the verses I just gave. They are OBVIOUSLY different. And that is obvious by people who understand words.

God won't abide in a defiled temple.

Of course not. I fully agree.

That's WHY God regenerates the dead human spirit that every human is born with, as a dwelling place for the Holy Spirit.

What does dismissing water baptism "identify"?

This question needs work. It doesn't make sense.

But regarding "identification", that's what baptism does. It identifies someone or something with something or someone.

Originally, it was used in the process of dying wool and cloth. The material was DIPPED into a vat of dye and came out with a different color. The material was now IDENTIFIED with the new color.

So, there are ceremonial and literal baptisms. The ceremonial baptisms are SYMBOLIC of an identification. And we see that word (symbolic) in 1 Pet 3:21; that literal water baptism is symbolic OF THE BAPTISM THAT SAVES. Note the verse DOESN'T say that literal water saves, or does anything else.

Examples of literal (non water) baptisms that makes an identification of people with another.

1 Cor 10
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

Now, in this event, who actually got dipped into the water? The Egyptian army. And they ALL DIED. They were literally baptized and died.

However, Paul makes the point that the Jews were being IDENTIFIED with Moses and the miracle by God of passing THROUGH the sea. btw, on dry ground. And Paul calls that a baptism.

Second example is the flood.

Who literally got dipped into the water? The whole human race, minus 8 people, who were SAFELY in the ark, DRY, of course.

Noah + 7 were identified with God IN the ark, away from the water. The human race all got dipped into the water and DIED.

Sadly, this is the POV of one defending sinful behavior by alleged Christians.

Rather, sadly, you cannot support your claims by any evidence.

I've never defended sinful behavior. I HAVE pointed it out as a FACT, though. Because the Bible points it out.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It also means "disobedient"...as you posted, but seem to have over-looked.

This is basically an admission that you don't read the posts of others.

This is what I actually posted:

""not obey" - apietho -
Usage: unbelieving, disobedient, who will not be persuaded.

So, to "not obey" means to "not believe".

In fact, an unbeliever."

I highlighted the word you seem to have overlooked.

The disobedient are the unbelievers.

All disobedience is sin. What's your point?

Believers fear God enough to submit to His will.

So, you've interviewed ALL believers throughout all time, huh.

What you've said here is what all believers ARE SUPPOSED TO DO.

It sure isn't what all believers actually do.

Even a casual read of Scripture easily proves that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I clearly understand why. And I don't blame you for bowing out."

I don't see how you could possibly understand my reasons since I didn't specify.

You didn't need to. It is rather obvious to anyone who is following this thread.

You have made a number of claims against me and my views. All without any evidence; just the claim.

I challenged you to provide evidence for your claims, in order to make them legitimate.

And you responded by bowing out.

My reason is similar to the following.

"David Neos said:
I don't need to prove anything since these threads get repeated a lot and no one changes their minds."

For that reason I prefer to limit my replies to no more than three. Not only that but each post was way too long.

So you're going to hide behind a very LAME excuse for not posting.

Anytime someone claims "I don't need to prove anything" is just a ruse for not answering questions or providing evidence for their claims.

It's one of the MOST LAME excuses ever.

And...it is directly tied to my response to you. You yourself don't have any evidence that backs up your empty claims.

When the limit was reached (I deleted all but one that isn't so long), so I announced my decision to discontinue.

Yeah, right. Sure. Whatever.

As I recall, you only posted to me once. So what do you mean by "the limit"?

 

[Phil W]

Every believer's body is a vessel for the Holy Spirit. But this is what I said:

Will the Holy Spirit live in a defiled temple?
No.
Sinners don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost.
They never repented of sin and were baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins.
They are defiled.

Yet you keep ignoring/rejecting is that while the Holy Spirit indwells every vessel, the ONLY WAY to live by His POWER is by being FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT.

He indwells every vessel that has turned from sin. (Acts 2:38)

I believe I asked you how to be filled with the Spirit? Do you know?

Quit sinning, permanently. (Acts 2:38)

No one "gets to be" anything. The ONLY WAY to be sinless is when you are FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT.

It starts with a real repentance from sin.

So again, do you know how to be filled with the Spirit?

Just as Peter prophesied on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38.

 

[Phil W]

This verse teaches that the born again spirit cannot sin. Because it is "born of God". This is what being born again is about.

"Whosoever" is more than spirit.

But you deny that the believer STILL possesses his body of corruption and remains capable of sinning.

The "body of corruption" is the vessel of the Holy Ghost...after repentance from all sin.
It isn't "ours", it is His.
If a man wants to turn from God and unto sin, he will just be denying that God was ever in him.

The idea that only unbelievers sin is easily proven false by all the Scripture that shows that believers still struggle with sin.

If the Holy Ghost was in them they wouldn't need to struggle with sin.
They would let God handle it.
Remember, it is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
God always provides the escapes fro temptation.

The fact of your claim that you no longer sin only proves 1 John 1:8 and 10 DO apply to you.

Those verses don't apply to those walking in the light/God.
They do, however, apply to those walking in darkness/sin.

And you can't explain how to be filled with the Spirit, though Paul commands believers to be filled. So, it's a command to OBEY.
And you don't know how.

As Eph 5 lets us know, by refusing the works of the flesh, only the Spirit can remain.
No 50% or 70% or 99% Spirit and some flesh too.
If we obey Peter's command from Acts 2:38, we will be filled by the Holy Ghost if we turn from sin.
As "God heareth not sinners", (John 9:31), only the sinless can ask God for the Spirit. (Luke 11:13)

 

[JLB777]

Actually, there is no parabolic language anyway in the Bible.

parabolic:
adjective
having the form or outline of a parabola.
having a longitudinal section in the form of a paraboloid or parabola: a parabolic reflector.
of or relating to a parabola.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

"not obey" - apietho -
Usage: unbelieving, disobedient, who will not be persuaded.

So, to "not obey" means to "not believe".

In fact, an unbeliever.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36


If the Lord commands us not to lie, but we continue to lie anyway, is that obeying or disobeying Him?

• all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8



JLB

 

[Danthemailman]

"not obey" - apietho -
Usage: unbelieving, disobedient, who will not be persuaded.

So, to "not obey" means to "not believe".

In fact, an unbeliever.

Amen! I often hear works-salvationists quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved "by" obedience/works which "follow" believing. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which "follow" believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is "apeitheo" and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." So in John 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to refuse to believe in the Son.