Salvation Cannot be Lost

[Phil W]

My challenge to you:
" I CHALLENGE you to pick the single BEST verse that says people will never sin again during their life.
So, prove your case. Just quote the single BEST verse that supports your opinion."

Not even a whisper about not sinning again. If this is your SINGLE BEST verse on people never sinning again, you have scored a huge FAIL.

You changed the intent when you added your own thoughts to Romans 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Verse 8 makes the idea that "free from sin" only means "free from the penalty of sin" as untrue as the father of lies would like.
8 "Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:"
As 3 of the first 6 verses of Rom 6 describe the means of our death with Christ, to twist it into a continuing non freedom from sin serves only the father of those who commit sin. (1 John 3:10)

Paul writes..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
Rom 6:23 says "the wages of sin is death".
My judgement?
Death.
I have been paid the wages of my past sins with death...on the cross with Christ at my water baptism into Him and into His death.
Those who continue to commit sin will pay for their sins after it is too late to do anything about it.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"I've given you very clear Scripture about the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit and you just dismiss/ignore/reject it. Well, that's on you.
The sealing with the Spirit is a GUARANTEE of the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.
And I proved that from Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22.
And you can't refute the truth of Scripture. But you certainly can and have tried to twist it all out of shape
Just amazing!! I quoted and cited 4 verses that PROVE in very clear and plain language that the sealing with the Holy Spirit is a GUARANTEE of the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession
And you just brush it all off as if they hadn't been written.

I "brush off" your interpretation and use of the scriptures.
Like you "brush off" mine

Well, that's your problem. You ignore the verses that directly refute your opinions.
And, btw, your claim is patently false. You cannot "believe Jesus" when you directly reject His statement about recipients of eternal life.
He SAYS they shall never perish.
You believe that those who have believed in Jesus CAN perish if they don't endure to the end of their life.
You can mark that up as just another sin in your life.
So please stop your claim about never sinning again.

That's just it.
Those who commit sin don't believe.

 

[JLB777]

I said:
"Of course I don't teach NOR believe that any believer can be removed from Christ."

Actually, it's all the phony teachers who DO teach that a believer can be removed from Christ that are false teachers.


He never did teach what you think he taught.

In fact, I've from from Scripture that believers are sealed WHEN they believe, IN HIM, and are GUARANTEED an inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

So, your repeated claims reject these verses:

Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, and 2 Cor 1:22.

What is quite obvious is your FAILURE to even attempt to explain or exegete any of these verses to prove that they don't mean what I claim they mean.

And every reasonable person knows why. The very words mean exactly what they say.

And you cannot prove otherwise.

To be removed from Christ would DEMAND losing the Holy Spirit indwelling.

So, please provide the very best verse that actually states that believers CAN lose the indwelling Spirit.

I dare you.

In the meantime, just remember what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life; they shall NEVER PERISH.

So your view that recipients of eternal life CAN perish is directly against Christ.

That’s why you are widely recognized as a false teacher.

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how the scriptures teach us to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

• he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

Why would John teach us that keeping His commandments was the way we remain in Christ, if it wasn’t true?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"There is no point in further discussion. You have ignored much Scripture, and your opinions are contrary to Scripture."

I can say the same about you.

You are free to say whatever you want, but it would all be false.

As I don't believe salvation is assured till after the final judgement, I never would have made such a statement.
I will say, however, that I quit sinning after my "turn from" sin.
I really, honestly, and permanently "turned from sin".

So, what's the difference? Didn't ou "turn from" sin when you believed? Or was that some time after you believed??

Regardless, your claim is that you are no longer sinning. Most folks refer to that condition as having achieved "sinless perfection".

And your belief in salvation not being assured until after the final judgment reveals your failure to understand Scripture, or outright REJECTION of Scripture.

Because there are NO VERSES that lead to such a conclusion.

What the Bible does teach is that those who believe have (possess) eternal life, and shall never perish.

Your opinion is in direct opposition to what Jesus taught.

And you have the gall to claim you haven't sinned since you turned from sin.

Well, your views reveal that you DON'T BELIEVE what Jesus said. That is sin.

btw, if you NEVER believed in the work of Christ alone for guaranteed salvation, then, according to Scripture, you are not a believer. That's what the Bible means by "believer".

A person who believes that Jesus is the Son of God, that He died personally for your sins on the cross, and gives you eternal life when you believe.

You sure don't believe that now. But IF you EVER believed that, you have eternal life, and are a child of God who has rebelled against His Savior by rejecting His teachings.

However, if you NEVER believed that, you still don't have eternal life, and at the final judgment, Rev 20:15 will ABSOLUTELY apply to you.

"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

In light of the above, those in heaven won't be committing sin.

Correct. The future tense of salvation is glorification; being saved from the presence of sin. No one on this planet has been glorified YET.

The "believers" will obey the admonitions, exhortations, and teachings in the bible.
Unbelievers won't.

What you seem to not understand is the difference between a policy statement and statement of fact. They are different.

Believers are supposed to (commanded to, even) obey. If all believers do obey, then there would be no need of any admonitions, commands, etc.

Not everyone reading the bible is a believer.

Of course not. You're one of them, by your own admission, and views.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My challenge to you:
" I CHALLENGE you to pick the single BEST verse that says people will never sin again during their life.
So, prove your case. Just quote the single BEST verse that supports your opinion."

You changed the intent when you added your own thoughts to Romans 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

No, I explained what "free from sin" means. But you reject the truth.

And you STILL CANNOT provide ANY verse that supports your opinion about peo9ple never sinning again during life on earth.

Verse 8 makes the idea that "free from sin" only means "free from the penalty of sin" as untrue as the father of lies would like.

You are certainly free to have any opinion you want to have.

8 "Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:"
As 3 of the first 6 verses of Rom 6 describe the means of our death with Christ, to twist it into a continuing non freedom from sin serves only the father of those who commit sin. (1 John 3:10)

This doesn't explain anything. You need to define what "means of our death with Christ" means. And I never said anything about your so-called "continuing non freedom from sin" nonsense.

Paul writes..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
Rom 6:23 says "the wages of sin is death".
My judgement?
Death.

Are you aware that all of humanity is born that way? Separated from God. In need of salvation. In need of new life (eternal life).

Do you know why eternal life is given? To qualify the believer in Christ to live with God forever. God IS eternal life. 1 John 5:20 - We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

The ONLY people who CAN live with God for eternity are those who have His life, which is eternal life.

And Jesus said in John 5:24 that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life, which you have blatantly rejected.

I have been paid the wages of my past sins with death...on the cross with Christ at my water baptism into Him and into His death.

Well, you're just wrong. You NEVER paid any wages for your sins. That would take an eternity. Christ paid that debt for everyone on the cross.

See? You don't even understand the work of Christ on the cross. What do you think He accomplished on the cross?

Those who continue to commit sin will pay for their sins after it is too late to do anything about it.

Nonsense. Christ paid the debt for everyone, even though you reject that fact.

2 cor 5:14,15
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

Heb 9:26 - Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

But, apparently, you don't believe this, do you.

By dying for our sins, He "did away" with sin. IOW, He removed the PENALTY of sin that hangs on all people.

Does that save anyone? No. The removal of the penalty was necessary to satisfy the justice of God.

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Once God's justice was satisfied, God is able to give the gift of eternal life to anyone who trusts in what His Son did for them on the cross.

If the penalty hadn't been removed by Christ's sacrifice, God couldn't grant grace or mercy to sinners, because justice woulnd't have been met

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's just it.
Those who commit sin don't believe.

You have made is crystal clear that you don't believe the very words of Jesus Christ.

How can you call yourself a believer when you don't believe His words??

 

[FreeGrace2]

That’s why you are widely recognized as a false teacher.

This is just hilarious. "widely recognized". lol That's funny.

Justs remember what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life to. They shall never perish.

Yet, you've made clear what you think about that. You flatly reject it. Your view is that saved people, believers, CAN perish.

Anyone who thinks that has been taught by a false teacher.

Jesus' words are clear. As are yours.

Jesus IS the truth.

Your words are a LIE.

 

[JLB777]

This is just hilarious. "widely recognized". lol That's funny.

Justs remember what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life to. They shall never perish.

Yet, you've made clear what you think about that. You flatly reject it. Your view is that saved people, believers, CAN perish.

Anyone who thinks that has been taught by a false teacher.

Jesus' words are clear. As are yours.

Jesus IS the truth.

Your words are a LIE.

Your doctrine in nothing more than a denial of the words of Jesus Christ.


Here are the words of Truth.

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

Please explain how a person who is no longer “in Christ” because they have been taken away from Christ, in which they do not remain in Christ, still somehow have eternal life?



Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how the scriptures teach us to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

• he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

Why would John teach us that keeping His commandments was the way we remain in Christ, if it wasn’t true?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your doctrine in nothing more than a denial of the words of Jesus Christ.


Here are the words of Truth.

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

Please explain how a person who is no longer “in Christ” because they have been taken away from Christ, in which they do not remain in Christ, still somehow have eternal life?



Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how the scriptures teach us to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

• he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

Why would John teach us that keeping His commandments was the way we remain in Christ, if it wasn’t true?



JLB

You have no grounds upon which to make ANY claim about the Bible, since you don't believe the words of Jesus regarding recipients of eternal life.

Let me ask you this: What are you basing your trust in for getting into heaven?

 

[JLB777]

You have no grounds upon which to make ANY claim about the Bible, since you don't believe the words of Jesus regarding recipients of eternal life.

Let me ask you this: What are you basing your trust in for getting into heaven?

Please explain how a person who is no longer “in Christ” because they have been taken away from Christ, in which they do not remain in Christ, still somehow has eternal life?





Your doctrine in nothing more than a denial of the words of Jesus Christ.


Here are the words of Truth.

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

Please explain how a person who is no longer “in Christ” because they have been taken away from Christ, in which they do not remain in Christ, still somehow have eternal life?



Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how the scriptures teach us to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

• he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

Why would John teach us that keeping His commandments was the way we remain in Christ, if it wasn’t true?



JLB

 

[Daniel C]

Do you believe and teach that a person who was in Christ, then removed from Christ still has eternal life?


You completely avoid the words of Jesus Christ.


Jesus teaches His people that we must remain in Him, or be cast into the fire and burned.



If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and theyare burned.





JLB

I don't know if anyone ever explained this to you sir, but Jesus ain't no Vine.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Please explain how a person who is no longer “in Christ” because they have been taken away from Christ, in which they do not remain in Christ, still somehow has eternal life?

Do you think your big red words make any more true? Of course not.

I have shown from Scripture that your notion that a sealed believer can be removed (unsealed) from Christ is nonsense. And you haven't even tried to show how Eph 1:13,14 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 don't support the truth that a sealed believer cannot be removed from Christ.

What you've done is confuse (or reject) the biblical doctrine of fellowship.

Certainly any believer can be out of fellowship, but that is not being "removed from Him".

Your doctrine in nothing more than a denial of the words of Jesus Christ.

Unbelievably preposterous. You are the one who have denied the words of Jesus, by your unbiblical idea that recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

Here are the words of Truth.

As was said in a movie once, "you can't handle the truth".

Go ahead and prove your claim that John 10:27-28 teach that the condition of never perishing is to hear and follow the Lord, since that is your claim.

And I'll follow up by proving that you don't even know what a conditional clause is.

So, state this supposed conditional clause from v.27-28 to prove that there IS a condition.

What you could do is highlight (in whatever color floats your boat) the words that make up this supposed conditional clause.

Then all will see how you don't understand what makes up a conditional clause.

{hint} there is no conditional clause in either verse.

But don't let that stop you. I'm eager to see what you come up with.

 

[Phil W]

My challenge to you:
" I CHALLENGE you to pick the single BEST verse that says people will never sin again during their life.
So, prove your case. Just quote the single BEST verse that supports your opinion."
No, I explained what "free from sin" means. But you reject the truth.

And you STILL CANNOT provide ANY verse that supports your opinion about peo9ple never sinning again during life on earth.
You are certainly free to have any opinion you want to have.
This doesn't explain anything. You need to define what "means of our death with Christ" means. And I never said anything about your so-called "continuing non freedom from sin" nonsense.
Are you aware that all of humanity is born that way? Separated from God. In need of salvation. In need of new life (eternal life).
Do you know why eternal life is given? To qualify the believer in Christ to live with God forever. God IS eternal life. 1 John 5:20 - We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
The ONLY people who CAN live with God for eternity are those who have His life, which is eternal life.
And Jesus said in John 5:24 that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life, which you have blatantly rejected.
Well, you're just wrong. You NEVER paid any wages for your sins. That would take an eternity. Christ paid that debt for everyone on the cross.
See? You don't even understand the work of Christ on the cross. What do you think He accomplished on the cross?
Nonsense. Christ paid the debt for everyone, even though you reject that fact.
2 cor 5:14,15
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
Heb 9:26 - Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
But, apparently, you don't believe this, do you.
By dying for our sins, He "did away" with sin. IOW, He removed the PENALTY of sin that hangs on all people.
Does that save anyone? No. The removal of the penalty was necessary to satisfy the justice of God.
1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Once God's justice was satisfied, God is able to give the gift of eternal life to anyone who trusts in what His Son did for them on the cross.
If the penalty hadn't been removed by Christ's sacrifice, God couldn't grant grace or mercy to sinners, because justice woulnd't have been met

It is written..."Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
And this will we do, if God permit.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:1-6)
They "can't be renewed again", because they were never renewed' in the first place.
Your version of the bible has omitted the doctrine of repentance from dead works, the doctrine of baptisms, and the doctrine of eternal judgement.
It is known as "easy sleazy grace" by some.

 

[Phil W]

You have made is crystal clear that you don't believe the very words of Jesus Christ.
How can you call yourself a believer when you don't believe His words??

Words like "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin" and "No man can serve two masters"?
And...
“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

I do believe them.

 

[Phil W]

And Apples don't bring forth Oranges. And women don't birth Puppies. And darkness isn't light........

Neither can God's seed bring forth the fruit of the devil. (1 John 3:9-10)

 

[Daniel C]

Neither can God's seed bring forth the fruit of the devil. (1 John 3:9-10)

Are you saying you're a seed?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you are not a believer?

Apparently you didn't read my post very well. Based on all your postings, you are the one who doesn't believe what the Bible says.

I believed in God and that Jesus was His Son and that He had died for our sins and that He was raised from the dead since I was a little kid.
But I didn't believe that I could serve God flawlessly till I reached my late forties.
Had I died in my sins I would have been lost.

This last line is what makes you an apostate. You no longer believe what the Bible says.

I believed in all the things above, but never submitted to God.
A lack of submission manifested by sin.

So this is more evidence that you don't believe what the Bible says about the FACT that Jesus died for ALL sins. You are convinced that sin will keep you out of heaven, and all without any biblical evidence.

"Achieved"?
No, I was granted sinless perfection as part of my rebirth of God's seed.

If that were true, you'll be the only human there.

[QUOT3E]Tell that to the folks in Matt 7:22.
Didn't they 'think" they had inherited eternal life?[/QUOTE]
No, you should read the passage before commenting on it. They based their entrance on the kingdom by WHAT THEY DID.

I agree with that, as believers won't jeopardize their faith for sin.

More admission that Christ's work on the cross wasn't complete, and doesn't cover all sin. Even though the Bible says He did.

It is the false believers who will be surprised that there is a judgment coming that they were tricked into ignoring.

There were no "false believers" in Matt 7:21-23. These were just religious types, who all thought they were earning their way to heaven by what they did.

Kinda like yourself.

How come you don't realize the obvious, that believing sin will keep you out of heaven is an affront to Jesus Christ, who died on our behalf?

 

[FreeGrace2]

My challenge to you:
" I CHALLENGE you to pick the single BEST verse that says people will never sin again during their life.
So, prove your case. Just quote the single BEST verse that supports your opinion."
No, I explained what "free from sin" means. But you reject the truth."

It is written..."Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

FAILURE again. I've already explained the Greek word for "perfection". It means "to mature, to complete". It doesn't mean sinless, as you fantasize.

(Heb 6:1-6)
They "can't be renewed again", because they were never renewed' in the first place.

You're wrong again. The writer is describing saved people who had returned to animal sacrifices as a way to atone for their sins. Such people will not be brought back to repentance again. There is NOTHING in the passage about losing salvation.

Your version of the bible has omitted the doctrine of repentance from dead works, the doctrine of baptisms, and the doctrine of eternal judgement.

You make bold statements, yet without a shred of any evidence.

It is known as "easy sleazy grace" by some.

OK, here we go. The real problem with your opinions. It is now clear how much you hate grace. That God grants grace to those who don't earn or deserve it.

Paul destroys your opinions in Eph 2:8,9. We are saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. It isn't by ourselves. Not of works, lest anyone should brag (I don't sin anymore).

Your opinion is that your entrance into heaven is because you no longer sin.

So basically, your brag is that you don't need Christ's sacrifice because you don't sin.

You're no different than the crowd in Heb 6. The only difference between you and them is that they returned to what they used to do; animal sacrifices for atonement.

You don't need any atonement because you don't sin.

Except you DO still sin. But won't admit it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Phil W said: ↑
"Achieved"?

Phil W said:
"No, I was granted sinless perfection as part of my rebirth of God's seed."

Liar.

No kidding!!

Ther percentage of evangelical Christians across the world that think the way he does is astronomically small.

So it would seem God granted him something very very few others have been granted.

And there is NO evidence in Scripture that God grants sinless perfection to anyone, for any reason.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"You have made is crystal clear that you don't believe the very words of Jesus Christ.
How can you call yourself a believer when you don't believe His words??"

Words like "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin" and "No man can serve two masters"?

You don't even understand these words. But you've directly rejected other words.

And...
“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)

You just don't want to admit that "perfect" doesn't mean sinless. You have no excuse.

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

I've already explained this. You're just not interested in the truth.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ, because of what Jesus said in John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

And Paul reiterated in 2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

These 2 verses PROVE that condemnation is based on NEVER having believed, and NOTHING about sinning. Christ died for all sin. But you don't believe that.

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

Of course we're commanded to stop sinning. But God has provided a solution for when the believer does sin.

The Law was given to PROVE that mankind cannot be perfect in the sense that you understand it.

I do believe them.

You do not. Your words condemn you.