Salvation Cannot be Lost

[Not David]

Judas lost his salvation i would have thought.

I warned that this thread was going to be like the others, 28 pages already and I think no one has changed their minds.

 

[Phil W]

But it certainly CAN mean that. If a parent catches their teen smoking, and says, "don't smoke", it's obvious that they WERE smoking.
otoh, if Paul had written "don't START grieving/quenching the Spirit", you'd maybe have a point.

By your reasoning then, every convert to Godliness was still an idolater, murderer, thief, adulterer, liar, stingy, self serving, revenge seeking, faithless, hater of God, and every other thing we are exhorted not to be.

Why would I be scared to defend the truth of Scripture?

Because Jesus said the truth would free you from committing sin. (John 8:32-34)
What you adhere to isn't Jesus' truth.

I have proven from Scripture that believers NEED to confess their sins in order to maintain or regain fellowship with the Lord, from 1 John 1. That's the purpose of confession; to cleanse the believer from their sins.

You seem to infer that believers MUST commit sin. Just so they can be cleansed by the blood of Christ again.
It is written..."What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" (Rom 6:1-2)
Why are not you and yours "dead to sin"?
Don't bother answering, as I know water baptism means nothing to you.

Just as it was NECESSARY in Jesus' day to wash the feet of people before entering houses, since animal feces were on them. John 13. Jesus even emphasized the point that Peter WAS CLEAN (saved) but in order to "have a part with Me" he needed his feet cleaned.
I've already been through this, but it's becoming clear to me that you just aren't interested.

I am not interested in "walking in the flesh" doctrine.

Yes they DO, and you are exactly right.

Jesus left us two laws.
Love God above all else, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Your brand of Christian won't even do these two simple things, but you call the believers.

Your self evaluated opinion of yourself means nothing at all.

Got that right, but in the day of judgement I will be with the sheep that know their shepherds voice...and follow it.

Just ask any hyper-self-righteous person how good they are. And they'll tell you.

The "self-righteous" are they who don't submit to God and His righteousness.
But I guess if they "believe" it doesn't matter at your "church".

 

[Phil W]

The fact that truly born again people have received a new nature and that that nature will co exist along side their old nature until we are glorified is one of the most basic N.T. doctrines. Those who don't understand that or ignore it or twist it will fall into a theological ditch of some kind.

It isn't a Christian doctrine, as 2 Cor 5:17 refutes it.

Happily - I have that mind of Christ the Lord promised us.
That mind sure seems to be grieved or perhaps even (God forbid) missing in some people here in the Forum.

Some just prefer to serve sin instead of God.

 

[Phil W]

I warned that this thread was going to be like the others, 28 pages already and I think no one has changed their minds.

Thanks for participating.
Do you think a man who sins is of God?
Or do you think a man who offends God doesn't need to worry about eternal judgment?

 

[Not David]

Thanks for participating.
Do you think a man who sins is of God?
Or do you think a man who offends God doesn't need to worry about eternal judgment?

Christians do sin and we all need to worry about Christ's judgment.

 

[His student]

It isn't a Christian doctrine, as 2 Cor 5:17 refutes it.

How's that?

Some just prefer to serve sin instead of God.

Examples?

 

[Lost4words]

I warned that this thread was going to be like the others, 28 pages already and I think no one has changed their minds.

Was my post wrong? Sorry my friend

 

[Not David]

Was my post wrong? Sorry my friend

No it wasn't, I was venting.

 

[Lost4words]

No it wasn't, I was venting.

At me?

 

[Not David]

At me?

No, did you read my post at the beginning of this page.

 

[Lost4words]

No, did you read my post at the beginning of this page.

Sorry. I read it wrongly.

God bless you my friend

 

[Phil W]

Christians do sin and we all need to worry about Christ's judgment.

As Christians are "in Christ", and there is no sin in Christ, your POV has no basis.
Jesus said the truth would make you free.
Free from what?...He was asked.
Jesus said "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:32-34)
The truth can free you from committing sin.
So what is that truth?
He is that truth, and He frees us from committing sin with the gifts of repentance and "immersion" into Him and into His death, burial, and resurrection. (Rom 6:3-7)
By dying with Him, our old man, "flesh" is killed.
By being raised with Him, to walk in newness of life, we are born again of God's seed...and incapable of bringing forth the fruit of the devil. (1 John 3:9-10)

 

[Phil W]

How's that?
Examples?

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
As "old things" includes the "fleshly" old nature, it is impossible for it to exist alongside our new divine nature.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
Without the vile affections or lusts of the old man, it is impossible to consummate sin...as per James 1:14-15.
He wrote..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Without lusts, we can't complete the 'formula' for sin.
Thanks be to God!

For examples of men preferring to serve sin instead of serving God all you have to do is open your eyes.

 

[Arbown]

In the sense most think of losing salvation, I agree: you can not be sent to hell after receiving the Holy Spirit, as we have been told He will never leave us. IMO, the Holy Spirit is how/where we are grafted into Christ. As in, we are literally spiritually attached to Him now. Everything we need to function as Christ wants, we receive at initial salvation: we get the Holy Spirit, all the fruits of the spirit (which are from God's character, not our own human character), etc.

However, we can chose not to use the grace/fruits and ignore the Holy Spirit after we are saved. We are instructed to work out our salvation, which means we already have it, but are responsible for allowing our teacher, the Holy Spirit, to reveal to us how to use all the things we have been given, (so it can flow out of us and into the world). We really are like jars filled with oil, unless we "harden our hearts", which will cause us to stop being "light and salt". However, we still won't be sent to hell, we'll just be deeply ashamed of our rebellion and refusal to listen to the Holy Spirit.

IMO, most of the post-salvation Christian life is learning how to stop trying in our own flesh, and allow the salvation God has given us to function in its place. This is actually quite hard, and requires denying yourself to achieve.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"OK, let's see you back up this silly charge with actual evidence that my verse has been "pulled out of context" and then "twisted"."

More proof you don't actually read what I wrote. I said you twist my words and scripture. I never said you did anything with these verses.

Maybe a better system of proof-reading your posts before hitting the "reply" button would solve these issues.

Your go to verse as I recall was in John 6, which you claim says no one ever loses salvation. In the same chapter, it is clear that salvation depends on ongoing belief.
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Yes, that was my claim. But since you disagree, then just please provide the specific verse that does SAY that salvation can be lost.

Regarding your claim that John 6 clearly shows that salvation depends on ongoing belief is another false statement. Please back up your claim with evidence.

Thirdly, Jesus' answer has nothing to do with "ongoing belief". But it seems you think so. Why is that? Please explain yourself.

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life...
Salvation is conditional on ongoing belief.

Again, where do you get the notion that this verse teaches ongoing belief for salvation??

I'll bet you're going to say "because the word 'believes' is in the PRESENT TENSE.

OK. So what? Now you need to prove your theory by quoting from any actual textbook on Greek grammar that shows that the present tense means the action MUST continue in order for the results to continue. For that is basically what you are saying.

I'll give you the truth. The present tense ONLY means current action from the perspective of the speaker/writer. I've been over several Greek grammars and NONE of them teach what you seem to believe about the present tense.

And if you were correct, the Bible would have NEVER used the aorist tense with 'believe', since the aorist tense "describes an undefined action that normally occurs in the past". Per Greek Grammar for the Rest of Us, by Wm Mounce. p.157

"Generally, the aorist looks at an action as a whole and does not tell us anything about the precise nature of the action.

This does not mean that the action was not a process; the writer simply does not tell us." p.160

And the aorist tense is used a number of times in regard to believing. Such as in Acta 16:31, Rom 10:10 and many others.

It is basically a "point in time" kind of action. And usually past tense.

So, what's your sources say?

 

[FreeGrace2]

The fact that truly born again people have received a new nature and that that nature will co exist along side their old nature until we are glorified is one of the most basic N.T. doctrines. Those who don't understand that or ignore it or twist it will fall into a theological ditch of some kind.

The two natures war against one another and we make choices every day concerning following one nature vs. the other nature.

Those things done while on earth that favor the new nature will remain after the Judgment Seat of Christ and those that favor the old nature will be burned up like so much wood, hay and stubble - while the opposite will somehow shine like precious jewels.

All believers as blood bought children of God will be happy with what is left (at least after every tear that will be shed at judgment time is wiped away by the Lord. But we will suffer great loss for those things we have chosen to do in the flesh rather than the Spirit.

When the scriptures warn of judgment (cast aside, burned, annihilated or whatever else people see concerning the judgment of our wicked works) they are talking about the old nature which was crucified with Christ.

But the new man is saved forever and will never again come into condemnation. Some people's new man will be a bit pathetic compared to others. But, again, after the tears of sorrow for things done in this life and not done in this life are wiped away by the lord - everyone will be very happy with his new life.

After all - our crowns are only for the purpose of casting at the feet of the Lord to bring Him glory and not for our own glory. I for one want all the crowns I can muster to bring Him glory.

Why these basic truths (however crudely they have been outlined here) can't be understood by some in this forum - I really don't know for sure.

For some it's probably just misunderstanding.

For others it may be because they consider their good works as efficacious toward their justification before God as opposed to the work of the Lord only.

Some may even point to those works when they see Him face to face and hear the dreaded words "I never knew you".

Hopefully others will simply be corrected on the wrong teaching they put out while in the flesh. They will suffer loss at that time and yet they will be saved - "and yet so as by fire".

Only the Lord knows for sure who are the false teachers here and those who are simply mistaken - albeit with good motives.

God will sort us all out in the end.

But I wouldn't trade my religion of salvation by grace through faith for all the works oriented teachings in all the world.

The stakes are just too high for me to rely on what God calls filthy rags in any way to commend me to the perfect One.

I don't believe that eternal security vs. the judgment of our lives is exactly spiritual rocket surgery - at least for those who believe in salvation by grace.

This seems sort of like "evangelical Christianity 101" - that is, for those who look at the scriptures in a balance and systematic way as they should.

Of course there will always be those who like to just choose one side of a theological equation and go to war. "For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?".-

Happily - I have that mind of Christ the Lord promised us.

That mind sure seems to be grieved or perhaps even (God forbid) missing in some people here in the Forum.

Amen!!

 

[renniks]

So, what's your sources say?

If we walk in the light, as God is in the light, we have communism one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."- 1 John 1:

Scripture is my source.
Conditional application of the blood...if we cease to walk in the light, what happens?
Quit dancing and take scripture for what it says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As you have already stipulated that sinners are not believers,

No, you are the one who claims that believers don't sin, and therefore, only unbelievers are sinners. Yet Paul stated in the clearest of terms that He was the worst of sinners, and he used the PRESENT TENSE, in 1 Tim 1:15.

In a sense, true, but if Jesus was a slave of Rome, where is the evidence?

This is evidence that you don't understand your history. The ENTIRE Jewish nation was under the thumb of Rome.

If you don't believe that, then please explain WHY there was a Roman garrison in Jerusalem which controlled the city.

Rome occupied the lands, and exacted taxes, and were quite cruel at times. But they also allowed certain freedoms too.

Doesn't change the FACT that they were in charge over the Jews.

Slaves of sin are not allowed that freedom.

How do you know what 'slaves of sin' aren't allowed? Please support your opinions from Scripture.

I could give you a very long list of what any kind of slave is allowed to do.

You said there was no mention of sin in John 8:32-34...but changed your mind.

No, I showed that the mention of sin was not relevant to freedom or slavery.

You seem to think Jesus' baptism replaced John's.

No, I don't.

It didn't, but was modified so our water baptism for the remission of sins is done "in the name of Jesus Christ".

I've already shown that literal wet water baptism does NOT save anyone, from 1 Pet 3:20-21.

Except that Peter didn't say "through water".
It is written..."Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Peter 3:20-21)

More than half of the 29 English translations on 'bible hub.com' use "through". Do some research on what the Greek word "di" means in the Greek. You'll find it means "through".

Why do you want to argue that Noah +7 were saved by water, when the water KILLED everyone else? How come you don't see how stupid that argument is?

They were saved through water because they were IN the ark. Saved FROM the water. Which KILLED everyone else.

It may be your version of the bible that denies the need for baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, (Acts 2:38), but mine makes it perfectly clear that by our partaking in Christ's resurrection, post death and burial, we can be not only washed from our past sins by the blood of Christ, but also kill the old man and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...with a clean conscience towards God. (Rom 6:3-7)
"For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)

Do some research on it, ok?

You keep mentioning faith in Christ but neglect to say how we get "in Christ".

I sure have. We get in Christ WHEN we believe, and are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1-
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Read just the red words and it will (or should) all become clear to you.

But, I'll do it for you:

"you also were included in Christ when you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession."

Now, I'm going to make some statements relative to these words in red, and if you disagree, please explain HOW the red words don't really mean what I state.

1. Being included in Christ is "when you believed".
2. People are marked in Christ WHEN they believe and are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
3. The Holy Spirit is a deposit, that guarantees the believer's inheritance for their inheritance until the redemption of God's possession.
4. All sealed people (believers) are God's possession.
5. The inheritance of believers is a guarantee.

Because salvation isn't by faith alone if we can't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands.

Sheesh! As I pointed out already, the laying on of hands was TEMPORARY during the transition to the church age, and only for Gentiles. By Acts 10, laying on of hands wasn't needed.

Tell that to the twelve at Ephesus.

What do you want me to tell the 12 at Ephesus? It appears from the text that they were disciples of John, and not Jesus. When Paul evangelized them, they were baptized in the name of Jesus and then Paul laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. So even being "baptized in the name of Jesus" DIDN'T result in receiving the Spirit.

So explain that one.

Unbelievers don't serve God, as they can only serve one master...and they prefer sin.

You need to get out more. There's loads of unsaved people, who, like the Pharisees in Jesus' day, think they can earn their salvation by doing good.

The problem is that their "good", or righteousness is considered to be "filthy rags", meaning used menstrual rags, by God. So it won't help them.

And those who claim to be Christians but also think they are keeping their salvation by their lifestyles, etc, won't help them at all. In fact, it's blasphemous to think so.

Cling to that lie and you will perish.

I'm glad you used that word 'perish'. Since I have believed in Jesus Christ for salvation, and rejected my own works to save me, He gave me the gift of eternal life.

And because I am a recipient of eternal life, I SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

You doubt the power of faith?

Depends on the object of said faith. What did you have in mind?

Then you don't believe 2 Cor 5:17. Or Rom 6:3-7. Or Gal 5:24.

I not only believe all of these verses, plus EVERY verse in the Bible, but I properly understand each of them, unlike yourself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Judas lost his salvation i would have thought.

He never had salvation.

John 6-
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

v.70,71 shed light on who Jesus was referring to in v.64.

 

[Phil W]

In the sense most think of losing salvation, I agree: you can not be sent to hell after receiving the Holy Spirit, as we have been told He will never leave us. IMO, the Holy Spirit is how/where we are grafted into Christ. As in, we are literally spiritually attached to Him now. Everything we need to function as Christ wants, we receive at initial salvation: we get the Holy Spirit, all the fruits of the spirit (which are from God's character, not our own human character), etc.

However, we can chose not to use the grace/fruits and ignore the Holy Spirit after we are saved. We are instructed to work out our salvation, which means we already have it, but are responsible for allowing our teacher, the Holy Spirit, to reveal to us how to use all the things we have been given, (so it can flow out of us and into the world). We really are like jars filled with oil, unless we "harden our hearts", which will cause us to stop being "light and salt". However, we still won't be sent to hell, we'll just be deeply ashamed of our rebellion and refusal to listen to the Holy Spirit.

IMO, most of the post-salvation Christian life is learning how to stop trying in our own flesh, and allow the salvation God has given us to function in its place. This is actually quite hard, and requires denying yourself to achieve.

Why not just give up the flesh altogether?