Salvation Cannot be Lost

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Where does the Bible say that "believers WILL..."."

Do you have some verse that says believers won't do things to glorify God?

Actually, several.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
1 Thess 5:19 - Do not quench the Spirit.

And don't tell me these verses are directed to unbelievers. Unbelievers can't do otherwise.

Your claim is that true believers WILL (as in guaranteed behavior) do things.

How can a sinful life manifest or glorify God?

Why do you think that I have said this? Please pay attention to what I actually say.

I'm guessing you are guilty of "filling in between the lines" with what you ASSUME I believe rather than just understanding what I actually say.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

require

willingness

 

[renniks]

I said:
"OK, let's see you back up this silly charge with actual evidence that my verse has been "pulled out of context" and then "twisted"."

No you haven't. At least not with me. You are just dodging.


Oh yes, many verses have been presented. Yet, NONE actually plainly state in clear words that salvation can be lost. All of them require a lot of assumption about what the words refer to (proving that the verses don't have clear words that state loss of salvation).


I'll bet you aren't aware of a literary technique called "litotes". And that's what we have in this verse. They are quite common in the NT.

"I will not erase his name..." is a litotes.

Litotes - Litotes is a figure of speech in which a negative statement is used to affirm a positive sentiment. For example, when asked how someone is doing, that person might respond, “I’m not bad.” In fact, this means that the person is doing fine or even quite well. The extent to which the litotes means the opposite is dependent on context. For example, the person saying “I’m not bad” may have recently gone through a divorce and is trying to reassure a friend that things are okay. On the other hand, this person may have just won the lottery and says, “I’m not bad” with a grin on his face, implying that things are, in fact, incredible.

Litotes examples have been found in many different languages and cultures. The usage of litotes was important in works such as the Bible, the Iliad, and in Old Norse sagas. Authors and speakers use litotes for many reasons, one of which is to display restraint or display modesty in describing something amazing rather than boasting of how incredible it is. http://www.literarydevices.com/litotes/

Below are a few examples of litotes from daily conversations:

• They do not seem the happiest couple around.
• The ice cream was not too bad.
• New York is not an ordinary city.
• Your comments on politics are not useless.
• You are not as young as you used to be.
• I cannot disagree with your point of view.
• William Shakespeare was not a bad playwright at all.
• He is not the cleverest person I have ever met.
• She is not unlike her mother.
• Ken Adams is not an ordinary man
• A million dollars is no small amount.
• You are not doing badly at all.
• Your apartment is not unclean.

Biblical examples of litotes:

Acts 19:24 - For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver shrines of Diana, brought no small profit to the craftsmen. NKJV brought in a lot of business NIV

Acts 20:12 - And they brought the young man in alive, and they were not a little comforted. NKJV greatly comforted NIV

Acts 21:39 - Paul replied, “I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no obscure city. I beg you, permit me to speak to the people.”

Acts 27:20 - Now when neither sun nor stars appeared for many days, and no small tempest beat on us, all hope that we would be saved was finally given up. NKJV storm continued raging NIV

You see, I do support my points with evidence.

Looks like you support them with speculation.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire

 

[bcbsr]

I agree, but believers will manifest that belief with acts to the glory of God.
Like resisting temptation.

Yes, and not only so but there are many effects salvation has on those born of God, such as 1John 3:9,10 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

But that is an effect rather then the condition or cause of salvation. Those who have been saved are not only eternally secure, but have received such a nature that they will endure in the faith and in a lifestyle consistent with that faith.

This as opposed to the salvation by works soteriology which claims that one maintains their salvation status by living up to it. They confuse the fruit with the root of salvation, the effect with the cause, and so end up trusting in themselves rather than in Christ to save them.

 

[JLB777]

Paul taught that those who HAVE (notice the tense) believed ARE sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a GUARANTEE of our inheritance for the day of redemption.

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

It is clear that your argument is with Scripture. Not me.


If true, then John 10:28 and other verses are FALSE.

What is false is your claim.

Since you believe that salvation can be lost, how about just addressing the OP and taking my points one by one and trying to prove my points wrong.


Actually, He taught aht in order to bear fruit, we must ABIDE in Him or REMAIN in Him.

But you have abused Scriptures by using "remain" and "abide" as being sealed. But since the seal is a GUARANTEE of our inheritance, your opinions cannot be true.

They are quite false.


Yep. No fruit bearing. Let's get the real context and leave your opinions out of it.

John 15-
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

All these red words refer to bearing fruit. The obvious subject of this passage.

Not "how to stay saved", as you incorrectly opine.

In fact, if your opinion about "staying saved" is in view, then the passage isn't teaching that any kind of sin will result in loss of salvation, but rather, LACK OF BEARING FRUIT.


Correct. Which has zero to do with maintaining salvation.

Christ maintains our salvation. He is the author and finisher of our salvation.

Heb 12:2 - Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

iow, He began it and He finishes it.


I would add this:

He who says "I know Him", and does not believe His words, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

You have made it quite clear that you believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

Your opinions are in direct opposition to what Jesus said.


Who teaches that?


Warning to all readers of this thread.

DO NOT believe anyone who claims that salvation can be lost. Such people DO NOT BELIEVE what Jesus taught. They are liars, according to Scripture.


I wish you would start.

Those who are in Christ are saved.

Those who are removed from Christ, are no longer saved.


Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2



Jesus taught us we must REMAIN IN HIM.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how the scripture instructs us to REMAIN IN CHRIST.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


again



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



Why would anyone teach God’s people they can live in sin and still be saved?


WARNING TO ALL WHO ARE READING THIS THREAD.


DON’T BELIEVE ANYONE WHO TELLS YOU THAT BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS CAN LIVE IN SIN AND STILL BE SAVED.







JLB

 

[bcbsr]

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

That's talking about the resurrection of the wicked. The resurrection of the righteous had already taken place 1000 years prior to that at Jesus coming. Rev 20:5 "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." The first resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous. "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." 1Th 4:16

The resurrection of the righteous is only for those justified by faith apart from works, as Jesus said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." John 5:24 Those who don't believe the gospel (such as salvation by works Christians) will partake of the second resurrection and will be judged by their performance. (Good Luck with that!)

 

[Phil W]

There is nothing about sin in the fact that truth will make one free.

Then, the unbelieving Jews made clear what being "free" meant; "never in bondage to any man". however, they were quite delusional since they seemed to have forgotten the 430 years of Egyptian SLAVERY.

Jesus said..."Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
The Jews Jesus was talking to had no part in any enslavement except to sin..

About as delusional as claiming that salvation can be lost.

Since salvation won't be assured till the final judgement, it can't be lost after hearing "Well done my good and faithful servant."

OK, sin is mentioned here. It is quite puzzling to me that you just can't admit that being "free from sin" refers to being free from the penalty of sin.

I'm surprised you didn't go back and edit your first couple of responses.

Jesus paid the penalty of sin.

Thanks be to God!
And by remaining faithful, He won't need to pay for it again. (Heb 6:6)

What??!! 1 Pet 3:20-21 makes a very clear statement that water baptism doesn't save. It only "removes dirt from the skin".

You should read that again.
You inverted the effect of baptism from saving to washing dirt off.

OK, let's go color coded, for simplicity.
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
The red words state that Noah + 7 were saved FROM literal water, by being IN the ark. Unlike the rest of humanity, who were KILLED by literal water. It's called drowning.

Noah was also saved "BY" water from the wickedness of the world. Just as we are by our "immersion" into Christ.
Christ is our Arc, and our entry into the Arc is BY baptism into Christ. (Rom 6:3-6)

But, one could say they were "immersed" in literal water. Which is HOW they were killed. We can say the same thing about the Egyptian army, who were "immersed" in literal water and were KILLED, while the Jews passed THROUGH the water on DRY ground and were SAVED. Yet, Paul describes that event as a baptism.
1 Cor 10-
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

As Rom 6 states that we are also killed by our baptism into Christ your slightly askew reasoning can actually make some sense, as a presage of water baptism.
If you comprehend the word "baptism" as "immersed", I agree with Paul that the Jews fleeing Egypt participated in everything Moses did.
They were of one experience...which our baptism into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection also provides.

They were believers. Saved Jews.

Saved from the Egyptians...not from sin.
It was a presage or "picture" of what was to come.

Excuse me, but Christ's death occurred on a cross. And water baptism SYMBOLIZES our IDENTIFICATION with THAT death.

To believers, it is our actual death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. The death of the old man of sin, and rebirth of a new creature.

No, it is the modus operandi of NT salvation. Prior to Cornelius, Gentiles had to have hands laid on them before they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8

That is the first time I have heard that escape from the need for baptism and reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Doesn't that idea just make the "faith alone" folks freak out?
Faith PLUS laying on of hands?

I never said unbelievers are free from sin.

Unbelievers are NEVER free from sin.
Those who offend God are all unbelievers.

Explain to me what you really mean by "slain at water baptism".

Romans 6:3-7 best explains it..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin."

Believers, by the grace of God, have been given the means to kill the old man, with the affections and lusts, (Gal 5:24), by our "immersion" into Christ's death.
After that death and burial, we are "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life".
That new life is one without sin. Reborn of the seed of God. A seed that cannot bear wicked fruit.

Paul writes..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
As Rom 6:23 says the "wages of sin is death", our wage/judgement for our past sins is our death.
And we are paid that wage at our crucifixion with Christ.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"Where does the Bible say that "believers WILL..."."
Actually, several.
Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
1 Thess 5:19 - Do not quench the Spirit.

Telling someone not to do something doesn't mean they already did it.

And don't tell me these verses are directed to unbelievers. Unbelievers can't do otherwise.

Doesn't that scare you at all while you defend a second nature disloyal to God?

Your claim is that true believers WILL (as in guaranteed behavior) do things.

I'll affirm that I said that.

Why do you think that I have said this? (How can a sinful life manifest or glorify God)( Please pay attention to what I actually say.
I'm guessing you are guilty of "filling in between the lines" with what you ASSUME I believe rather than just understanding what I actually say.

It looks like a question instead of a quote.
You have made it abundantly clear that you don't believe those converted to Christianity can live without sin.
That would means all Christians commit sin...and no man can glorify God with sin.
To the glory of God, my life and the lives of all those who love God above all else prove your POV wrong.

 

[Phil W]

Yes, and not only so but there are many effects salvation has on those born of God, such as 1John 3:9,10 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

But that is an effect rather then the condition or cause of salvation. Those who have been saved are not only eternally secure, but have received such a nature that they will endure in the faith and in a lifestyle consistent with that faith.

I agree.

This as opposed to the salvation by works soteriology which claims that one maintains their salvation status by living up to it. They confuse the fruit with the root of salvation, the effect with the cause, and so end up trusting in themselves rather than in Christ to save them.

Generally, those siting "works" are unaware that the works Paul downplayed were the works of the Mosaic Law.
Circumcision, dietary restraints, tithing, feast keeping, etc.
Those cannot provide salvation.
Contrarily, repentance from sin, water baptism, and enduring faithful till the end are all complicit with faith to provide salvation.

 

[renniks]

Those who don't believe the gospel (such as salvation by works Christians) will partake of the second resurrection and will be judged by their performance. (Good Luck with that!)

I am not a salvation by works Christian. I do believe salvation is by faith alone.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"OK, let's see you back up this silly charge with actual evidence that my verse has been "pulled out of context" and then "twisted"."

Looks like you support them with speculation.

I'd say that's your area.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire

So, where did I "twist" this passage? Or "pulled it out of context"?

I ask for evidence and you fail to provide any. But you did slip in one more FAKE charge.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Those who are in Christ are saved.
Those who are removed from Christ, are no longer saved.
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2

Jesus taught us we must REMAIN IN HIM.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how the scripture instructs us to REMAIN IN CHRIST.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

again

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Why would anyone teach God’s people they can live in sin and still be saved?

WARNING TO ALL WHO ARE READING THIS THREAD.

DON’T BELIEVE ANYONE WHO TELLS YOU THAT BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS CAN LIVE IN SIN AND STILL BE SAVED.
JLB

Oh, now I see. When you bold some words and color them red, they are important, but when I do, they mean nothing. Interesting.

Can a recipient of eternal life perish? yes or no?

Simple question. But, will you answer the question? It's straightforward and clear.

 

[His student]

SALVATION CANNOT BE LOST

Absolutely a true statement.

"Salvation belongs to the Lord." Psalm 3:8

God doesn't lose things.

Kind of a no-brainer as I see it.

Now if some people don't really believe that salvation is of the Lord and that He is the One Who began a good work in them but rather that they began it themselves - the scripture that promises that He will complete the good work He began probably doesn't mean much and they'll look around for verses that seem to say different - just as we see happening here.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus said..."Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."

And Paul made the same point in Romans 6:16.

The Jews Jesus was talking to had no part in any enslavement except to sin..

I suggest a review of history. The Jews were under the harsh thumb of Rome.

Since salvation won't be assured till the final judgement, it can't be lost after hearing "Well done my good and faithful servant."

Please tell me WHERE in Scripture do you find your theories??

Salvation is ASSURED from the MOMENT of faith in Christ.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

These verses say the same thing. Possessing eternal life means the recipient will not be judged, or shall never perish.

I'm surprised you didn't go back and edit your first couple of responses.

And, because...why??

And by remaining faithful, He won't need to pay for it again. (Heb 6:6)

There is no issue of EVER "paying for it again". That is sheer nonsense.

You should read that again.
You inverted the effect of baptism from saving to washing dirt off.

Uh, no, you should. I inverted nothing. The verse is quite clear. Literal water doesn't save. But is SYMBOLIC (that means NOT literal) of the baptism that does save.

And this baptism isn't SYMBOLIC, like dunking in water. It's being sealed with the Holy Spirit.

I've already given you all the verses one needs to understand the difference between the baptism that John performed and the baptism that Jesus performs. But you still do not understand.

Noah was also saved "BY" water from the wickedness of the world. Just as we are by our "immersion" into Christ.

Now, this is just a horrible example of how to twist Scripture.

The verse NEVER says "saved by water", but you force it into the verse.

By saying "saved THROUGH water", Peter was clear that they were saved FROM drowning. How? By being IN the ark, an anti-type of Christ.

The ark went THROUGH the water. Neither the ark nor its occupants were immersed INTO the water. But the rest of humanity WAS dunked, and were killed.

So much for water immersion for saving anyone.

Christ is our Arc, and our entry into the Arc is BY baptism into Christ. (Rom 6:3-6)

No, entry is by FAITH in Christ (Rom 3,4). And the result is the sealing with the Holy Spirit, which is the indwelling of the Spirit and called a baptism. Acts 10, 11.

That is the first time I have heard that escape from the need for baptism and reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Doesn't that idea just make the "faith alone" folks freak out?

No. Why would it?

Faith PLUS laying on of hands?

I'm just amazed at how much you seem to misunderstand. It was only during the transition to the church age that laying on of hands was used. And only for Gentiles.

By the time we get to Cornelius, it was NOT used, nor needed.

And Gal 3:2,5 makes clear that NO ONE now needs the laying on of hands.

Unbelievers are NEVER free from sin.

I never said they were. And the Bible says that believers make a choice of whom they serve: sin or righteousness. Rom 6

Those who offend God are all unbelievers.

Thank you for your opinion. But, no thanks.

Romans 6:3-7 best explains it..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin."

Again, freed from sin is freed from the penalty of sin. Not the practice of sin.

Believers, by the grace of God, have been given the means to kill the old man, with the affections and lusts, (Gal 5:24), by our "immersion" into Christ's death.

True. But they MUST use that means. It isn't automatic, nor guaranteed, as you insinuate. It's always about choice. Rom 6:16

After that death and burial, we are "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life".
That new life is one without sin.

The purpose is "to walk in newness of life". It's a policy command. It isn't a literal fact that believers will.

Reborn of the seed of God. A seed that cannot bear wicked fruit.

Correct. The new born again nature cannot sin. 1 John 3:9. But you deny that we continue to have our original human nature.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Telling someone not to do something doesn't mean they already did it.

But it certainly CAN mean that. If a parent catches their teen smoking, and says, "don't smoke", it's obvious that they WERE smoking.

otoh, if Paul had written "don't START grieving/quenching the Spirit", you'd maybe have a point.

Doesn't that scare you at all while you defend a second nature disloyal to God?

Why would I be scared to defend the truth of Scripture?

You have made it abundantly clear that you don't believe those converted to Christianity can live without sin.

I have proven from Scripture that believers NEED to confess their sins in order to maintain or regain fellowship with the Lord, from 1 John 1. That's the purpose of confession; to cleanse the believer from their sins.

Just as it was NECESSARY in Jesus' day to wash the feet of people before entering houses, since animal feces were on them. John 13. Jesus even emphasized the point that Peter WAS CLEAN (saved) but in order to "have a part with Me" he needed his feet cleaned.

I've already been through this, but it's becoming clear to me that you just aren't interested.

That would means all Christians commit sin...and no man can glorify God with sin.

Yes they DO, and you are exactly right.

To the glory of God, my life and the lives of all those who love God above all else prove your POV wrong.

Your self evaluated opinion of yourself means nothing at all.

Just ask any hyper-self-righteous person how good they are. And they'll tell you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Absolutely a true statement.

"Salvation belongs to the Lord." Psalm 3:8

God doesn't lose things.

Kind of a no-brainer as I see it.

Now if some people don't really believe that salvation is of the Lord and that He is the One Who began a good work in them but rather that they you began it themselves - the scripture that promises that He will complete the good work He began probably doesn't mean much and they'll look around for verses that seem to say different - just as we see happening here.

Exactly!

 

[renniks]

OK, let's see you back up this silly charge with actual evidence that my verse has been "pulled out of context" and then "twisted"."

More proof you don't actually read what I wrote. I said you twist my words and scripture. I never said you did anything with these verses. Your go to verse as I recall was in John 6, which you claim says no one ever loses salvation. In the same chapter, it is clear that salvation depends on ongoing belief.
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life...
Salvation is conditional on ongoing belief.

 

[His student]

The new born again nature cannot sin. 1 John 3:9. But you deny that we continue to have our original human nature.

The fact that truly born again people have received a new nature and that that nature will co exist along side their old nature until we are glorified is one of the most basic N.T. doctrines. Those who don't understand that or ignore it or twist it will fall into a theological ditch of some kind.

The two natures war against one another and we make choices every day concerning following one nature vs. the other nature.

Those things done while on earth that favor the new nature will remain after the Judgment Seat of Christ and those that favor the old nature will be burned up like so much wood, hay and stubble - while the opposite will somehow shine like precious jewels.

All believers as blood bought children of God will be happy with what is left (at least after every tear that will be shed at judgment time is wiped away by the Lord. But we will suffer great loss for those things we have chosen to do in the flesh rather than the Spirit.

When the scriptures warn of judgment (cast aside, burned, annihilated or whatever else people see concerning the judgment of our wicked works) they are talking about the old nature which was crucified with Christ.

But the new man is saved forever and will never again come into condemnation. Some people's new man will be a bit pathetic compared to others. But, again, after the tears of sorrow for things done in this life and not done in this life are wiped away by the lord - everyone will be very happy with his new life.

After all - our crowns are only for the purpose of casting at the feet of the Lord to bring Him glory and not for our own glory. I for one want all the crowns I can muster to bring Him glory.

Why these basic truths (however crudely they have been outlined here) can't be understood by some in this forum - I really don't know for sure.

For some it's probably just misunderstanding.

For others it may be because they consider their good works as efficacious toward their justification before God as opposed to the work of the Lord only.

Some may even point to those works when they see Him face to face and hear the dreaded words "I never knew you".

Hopefully others will simply be corrected on the wrong teaching they put out while in the flesh. They will suffer loss at that time and yet they will be saved - "and yet so as by fire".

Only the Lord knows for sure who are the false teachers here and those who are simply mistaken - albeit with good motives.

God will sort us all out in the end.

But I wouldn't trade my religion of salvation by grace through faith for all the works oriented teachings in all the world.

The stakes are just too high for me to rely on what God calls filthy rags in any way to commend me to the perfect One.

I don't believe that eternal security vs. the judgment of our lives is exactly spiritual rocket surgery - at least for those who believe in salvation by grace.

This seems sort of like "evangelical Christianity 101" - that is, for those who look at the scriptures in a balance and systematic way as they should.

Of course there will always be those who like to just choose one side of a theological equation and go to war. "For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?".-

Happily - I have that mind of Christ the Lord promised us.

That mind sure seems to be grieved or perhaps even (God forbid) missing in some people here in the Forum.

 

[Phil W]

And Paul made the same point in Romans 6:16.

As you have already stipulated that sinners are not believers,
it is clear you are not crediting them with an eternal life to lose.

I suggest a review of history. The Jews were under the harsh thumb of Rome.

In a sense, true, but if Jesus was a slave of Rome, where is the evidence?
Rome occupied the lands, and exacted taxes, and were quite cruel at times. But they also allowed certain freedoms too.
Slaves of sin are not allowed that freedom.
The Jews sought a Messiah to free them from Rome but didn't realize a far more insidious enemy had control over Rome too.
Jesus freed the Jews and Romans from sin...IF they would worship God above all else and love their neighbors as themselves.

Please tell me WHERE in Scripture do you find your theories??

We shall all be judged, and some of the scrip's testifying to it are Acts 24:25, Rom 2:3, and Rom 14:10.
There are many more, but 3 will give you a feeling for the upcoming day of judgement.

Salvation is ASSURED from the MOMENT of faith in Christ.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

I couldn't agree more.
Things are pretty much the same for us in the NT too.
Keep the faith and get the reward...at the day of judgement.

These verses say the same thing. Possessing eternal life means the recipient will not be judged, or shall never perish.

I think you are jumping to conclusions without the ful knowledge availabel to man.
For instance..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" (Heb 9:27)
And..."For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" (1 Peter 4:17)

And, because...why??

You said there was no mention of sin in John 8:32-34...but changed your mind.

There is no issue of EVER "paying for it again". That is sheer nonsense.

You should have read Heb 6:6.

Uh, no, you should. I inverted nothing. The verse is quite clear. Literal water doesn't save. But is SYMBOLIC (that means NOT literal) of the baptism that does save.
And this baptism isn't SYMBOLIC, like dunking in water. It's being sealed with the Holy Spirit.
I've already given you all the verses one needs to understand the difference between the baptism that John performed and the baptism that Jesus performs. But you still do not understand.

You seem to think Jesus' baptism replaced John's.
It didn't, but was modified so our water baptism for the remission of sins is done "in the name of Jesus Christ".

Now, this is just a horrible example of how to twist Scripture.
The verse NEVER says "saved by water", but you force it into the verse.
By saying "saved THROUGH water", Peter was clear that they were saved FROM drowning. How? By being IN the ark, an anti-type of Christ.

Except that Peter didn't say "through water".
It is written..."Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Peter 3:20-21)

The ark went THROUGH the water. Neither the ark nor its occupants were immersed INTO the water. But the rest of humanity WAS dunked, and were killed.
So much for water immersion for saving anyone.

It may be your version of the bible that denies the need for baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, (Acts 2:38), but mine makes it perfectly clear that by our partaking in Christ's resurrection, post death and burial, we can be not only washed from our past sins by the blood of Christ, but also kill the old man and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...with a clean conscience towards God. (Rom 6:3-7)
"For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)

No, entry is by FAITH in Christ (Rom 3,4). And the result is the sealing with the Holy Spirit, which is the indwelling of the Spirit and called a baptism. Acts 10, 11.

Agreed.
Faith. In Christ.
And we are water baptized "into Christ and into His death". (Rom 6:3-6)
You keep mentioning faith in Christ but neglect to say how we get "in Christ".

No. Why would it?

Because salvation isn't by faith alone if we can't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands.

I'm just amazed at how much you seem to misunderstand. It was only during the transition to the church age that laying on of hands was used. And only for Gentiles.

Sorry, you already put your foot in the bucket.

By the time we get to Cornelius, it was NOT used, nor needed.

Tell that to the twelve at Ephesus.

I never said they were. And the Bible says that believers make a choice of whom they serve: sin or righteousness. Rom 6
Thank you for your opinion. But, no thanks.

Unbelievers don't serve God, as they can only serve one master...and they prefer sin.

Again, freed from sin is freed from the penalty of sin. Not the practice of sin.

Cling to that lie and you will perish.

True. But they MUST use that means. It isn't automatic, nor guaranteed, as you insinuate. It's always about choice. Rom 6:16

You doubt the power of faith?

The purpose is "to walk in newness of life". It's a policy command. It isn't a literal fact that believers will.

Just a suggestion, huh?
It is a "literal fact" for those with faith in what is written..

Correct. The new born again nature cannot sin. 1 John 3:9. But you deny that we continue to have our original human nature.

Then you don't believe 2 Cor 5:17. Or Rom 6:3-7. Or Gal 5:24.

 

[Lost4words]

Judas lost his salvation i would have thought.