Salvation Cannot be Lost

[Phil W]

Sin includes not believing what Jesus taught. He taught that those given eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. And you aren't sure of your salvation.
It is obvious that your repentance isn't complete. Or finished."

According to "your" doctrine it won't matter in the end...I have eternal life no matter what I do.

OK, let's test your admission for, well, truthfulness.
Do you believe that a recipient of eternal life CAN perish? yes or no.

As eternal life won't be determined till after the day of judgement, my answer is "NO".

What do you mean by "lay claim"?

"Lay claim"...state something that is not yet manifested.

OK, let's just test your truthfulness again.
Well, do you believe that a person receives the gift of eternal life WHEN they believe?

If the belief is real...yes.
By "real" I mean...never lapses.

 

[Phil W]

So you don't believe Jesus' promise to recipients of eternal life then.

When do you believe that eternal life is given as a gift?

If I remain faithful, it will be counted from my conversion from a sinner to a lover of God above all else.
If I don't remain faithful, it was never granted.

 

[renniks]

Making a mistake on the balance in your check book is a whole lot different that satisfying a fleshly lust at the expense of self or others.

That's not what he's talking about, obviously.

 

[jerry kelso]

Today, I do believe I will inherit eternal life.
I believe I will never be tempted above what I can bear. (1 Cor 10:13)
But to say what I will believe in a year or two is not mine to declare.


Though not at all familiar with what those doctrines encapsulate, I believe that AS LONG AS I BELIEVE that I am reborn of God's seed I cannot bear evil fruit.
What I believe in a year or two...?


Bingo.
The faithful will get to heaven.
Do folks ever lose their faith?


Yes, I do believe it.


Hypocritical IF living as a Gentile...and free of the Mosaic Law
Not hypocritical if living as a Jew...and still abiding by the Law...but not necessarily FOR salvation.
"Thousands" in Jerusalem were.


Correct.
Endure till the end!!


If a Christian "fails", he isn't a Christian anymore...is he?
Presently, I use my freewill to please only God.
In a year or two I hope I am still of the same mind.


"IF".


Yes, without fail.
Failure would have admitted/manifested a separation from God.
It would have admitted/manifested I wasn't (re)born of Gods seed and was really of the devil's seed.

We are only Christians "IF" we obey God.

philw,

1. The position you hold is the infallibility doctrine.
You can be infallible as long as you stay in the state of Grace 24/7.
This means you cannot sin.

2. You say you can believe in eternal life today and not being temped above what you can bear today but may not know in a year or two and you said it is not yours to declare which implies somebody’s else could hav a say so in you not believing in eternal life and not being tempted above....

3. You say you cannot bear evil fruit as long as you believe that you are reborn of God’s seed.
The condition is believing and if you don’t believe then you can sin and bear evil fruit. You would have to believe this is possible because you don’t know how how you will believe in a couple of years.

4. Do folks ever lose their faith? Yes!
Peter lost faith in his denial of Christ. It doesn’t matter just because he was under the Old Covenant.
The New Covenant is established on Better promises that gives us greater access to God but it doesn’t make us unconditionally infallible.

5. If you believe in Ezekiel 18 then you believe that believers can sin and if they change masters and do not come back to Christ they will lose their salvation.

6. Your assessment of Peter’s hypocrisy is not the context.
You are just trying to explain the real truth away.
Paul withstood him because he was wrong knowing that Peter was right in associating with the gentiles but when he was around the Jews he would’t associate with the Gentiles because of fear that the Jews Old Testament commandment of not associating with Gentiles would end up in a rebuke and excoriation by them.
They were under the New Covent and the old covenant was abolished and replaced by the new Hebrews8:6-7.
So Peter was hypocritical and did commit an act of sin.

7. The winner runs the race when he crosses the finish line as Paul relates in Philippians.

8. A truthful person is truthful but a truthful person could tell a lie. It is the difference between one being fallible and the nature of someone of being who they are.
God looks at the heart before the action.
Can one lose salvation by one sin? Yes by a death penalty sin or unforgiven sin.
But God also offers grace and forgiveness because he is our advocate.
He is our advocate because we are his children.
He is an advocate for the sinner if they choose to believe in Christ as their Savior.
The Bible says he chastens us when we are not obeying him. If we are perfect without sin there is no need for chastening.

9. Yes without fail.
You said failure would have admitted implies that you are relying on your doctrine and not life experience ‘s. Also, manifested and showing you would be the devils seed implies you are relying your doctrine and not personal experience.

10. We are only christian’s if we obey God?
We are Christians if we obey God.
But God doesn’t do away with us as a Christian merely because we commit a sin or miss the mark. We may not being acting like a Christian but he doesn’t disown us. He never did with the disciples and the apostles after they missed the mark.
Have you made mistakes and what is the worst of them that you have made? Jerry Kelso

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jerry Kelso said:
"freegrace,

1. You don’t address or rebut about the justification by grace and justification by works. Care to take a stab at it? Jerry Kelso"

Please learn how to post properly. There is no reason to include my whole post at the beginning of your posts. My comments appear to be from you, the way you post.

This is my rebutting of your justifictaion by grace and justification by works.

There is NO SUCH THING as being justified by works, for salvation.

What James was referring to was that believers need to have such a lifestyle as to be justified in the eyes of others.

There are many verses that speak to God's perspective and man's perspective of our lifestyles.

Human and Divine perspective

Romans 12:17 - Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.

This is about the perspective of everyone.

Rom 14:18 - because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

This is about the perspective of both God and humans.

2 Cor 5:12 - We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.

This is about the perspective of others.

2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.

This is about perspective of the Lord and of man.

1 Tim 3:7 - He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

This is about perspective of outsiders.

1 John 3:18 - Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

This is directly related to James 2:15-18.

1 Thess 4:12 - so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.

This is about perspective of outsiders. To “win the respect of outsiders” is to be justified in the eyes of outsiders.

Questions?

 

[FreeGrace2]

freegrace,

1. You say that you agree with 1 Corinthians 15 is about physical resurrection and yet you believe the context is about the struggle between the flesh and the spirit. Where is that found in 1 Corinthians 15 in the first 31 verses? Jerry Kelso

ch 15 has a number of sections.

v.1-11 speaks to eyewitnesses to Christ's resurrection.
v12-34 speaks to absolute necessity of Christ's resurrection.
v35-49 speaks to our new heavenly bodies (resurrection bodies).
v.50-58 speaks of final victory over death.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Thanks for your opinion.

Now that you've gotten that off your chest, I invite you to actually show some scholarship and unpack my ""worthy exegesis". Just throwing insults at someone without any substance is not worthy of serious discussion. Kinda like arguing with a child, of which I know you are not.


Well, go ahead and prove your opinion with substance.

All you seem to be able to do is throw insults. Where is the substance of your opinions.

Because all 3 passages have the same context, they are analogous. So the statements about the kingdom are equated.

So, instead of more insults, please try to prove your thesis."

You haven't proven anything though.

Maybe you just don't understand what I posted.

All you have stated is your opinion, by throwing out three verses that all clearly mean one doesn't go to heaven without belief

I explained that the phrase "has no inheritance IN the kingdom" from Eph 5:5 doesn't preclude entering heaven.

And you have done nothing to prove otherwise. All you've got is opinions about "no inheritance in the kingdom" meaning "no entrance".

Because the 3 passages all have the SAME CONTEXT, proves that "has no inheritance IN the kingdom" is equivalent to "not inherit the kingdom".

An "inheritance" in the kingdom is related to 2 Tim2:12. I'll let you do some research on that.

and you claim that one of them means something different with for absolutely no reason.

Wow, have you misread my post then.

I showed that all 3 verses are saying the SAME THING.

Please go back and to some actual studying.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"There is no such thing as a "second work of grace". God's grace isn't numbered anywhere in Scripture."

Depends whether you believe in an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, as has often happened at various times in various churches and such as happened at Pentecost is meant to happen to every Christian.

Please show me any verse that numbers your so-called works of grace. Then you'll have a point to make. But not otherwise.

1. I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. -Joel 2:28

This is a prophesy about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the NT.

2. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. -Acts 2:4

The NT speaks of people being filled with the Spirit frequently. This is HOW the Christian life is lived biblically. Under the power of the Spirit. And believers are commanded to be filled with the Spirit. And none of this has been numbered in the Bible. That is a contrived concept.

3. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. -Acts 2:38

I see no numbering here.

As I said, I tend towards it being a process, but I'm not about to limit what the Spirit may choose to do for anyone.

Unless there is a verse that numbers this "work of grace", you've got no point.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Read the whole chapter. Clearly every believer has the choice of whom to serve.

Romans 12:1, 2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

This is what believers are to do. It's a choice that needs to be met.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

What do you think this verse teaches? It certainly doesn't support your numbered claim of "works of grace".

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

Did you notice that this is telling believers what they SHOULD do.

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Another great verse about what believers SHOULD do.

It's all about choice. And God rewards the right choices. And punishes the wrong choices.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:"Believers, who are credited with the righteousness of Christ.

Now, please try to prove your opinion."

17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”[f]

What don't you understand about faith being from first to last and the necessity to continue living by faith?

That question should have been directed to you. We ARE supposed to live our lives by faith, from the moment we believe (first) until we die (last). What this verse does NOT even come close to doing is support your claim that salvation is by a lifetime of faithful living. That is a command, sure. But it is NOT in any verse linked to how we are saved.

And Rom 1:17 doesn't say what you so wrongly think.

It's right there, clear as day, I don't know how you could fail to see that faith must continue for one to be considered among the righteous.

Because what you think you are seeing just isn't there.

The verse does NOT contain any kind of wording that supports your opinion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Do you not understand that people are guilty of many different sins? And yet you think that "one turn from sin" covers all the rest?
That is worse than naive."

If one "turns from" service to sin, it includes all disobedience(s) to God.

Where does the Bible command believers to turn from "service to sin"? It does say to turn from sin. Nothing about "service to sin", as you opine.

You can't quit murdering, committing adultery, stealing, and lying, but still occasionally pollute yourself with drugs.

Some have. What's your point?

It's common sense!
If a man "turns from" ALL sin, but after two years in Christ remembers he once stole something fifteen years ago, isn't his repentance from sin still valid?

You want to see real common sense. Look no farther than Scripture.

1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Isn't that what you have been claiming? That you haven't sinned for a number of years?

1 John 1:10 - If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Isn't that your claim as well?

Of course, I know you'll spin these 2 verses as to referring to someone else, but not yourself. Yeah, sure.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your salvation is contingent on belief.

Absolutely true.

To conclude that a man that quit sinning for a year, month or day was ever a believer is ludicrous.

I never even hinted at such nonsense. But please show me, from my posts, where you got that silly idea.

Where was his faith in the escapes God provided from temptation? (1 Cor 10:13)

Clearly, he had no faith in that.

Where was his love for his neighbor?

Clearly not there.

[QUTOE]Those walking in the flesh...instead of in the Spirit are NOT OF GOD. (1 Cor 6:9, James 4:4)[/QUOTE]
Sad that you keep inserting your opinions into Scripture.

To be "not of God" means "not of God's will for you". Or "not God's policy".

This is what I said that let to your response here.

"My conclusion is based solidly supported by Scripture.
Jesus SAID that whoever believes POSSESSES (has) eternal life in John 5:24and 6:47.
The Beloved disciple said the same thing in 1 John 5:11 and 13.
Jesus said that recipients of eternal life (which MEANS those who have believed) shall never perish in John 10:28.
So my conclusions are biblical. Unlike yours.
In fact, none of the verses you've cited prove your opinions and claims.
Again, which verse SAYS THIS??? You don't have any such verse.
No, the OSAS doctrine is based solely on what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.
Since John 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:11 and 13 make it clear that one who believes POSSESES (has) eternal life. This clearly means that they possess eternal life WHEN they first believe.
It is on that basis that all recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Period."

Why didn't you bother to address ANY of these verses and my conclusions?

Why didn't you even try to refute any of what I posted?

That would involve proving that my explanation of the verses I cited are wrong, and you've got the right explanation of what they mean.

Your move.

 

[renniks]

What do you think this verse teaches? It certainly doesn't support your numbered claim of "works of grace".

Did you notice that this is telling believers what they SHOULD do.

Another great verse about what believers SHOULD do.

It's all about choice. And God rewards the right choices. And punishes the wrong choices.

You are amusing, I'll give you that? Why spend time arguing against something I already said I don't hold to?
I'm not sure who you are arguing with, as I never said sanctification was something imposed on us, or anything other than a choice to live as God instructs us to.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"Your" heaven will be full of "one day" believers?

Oh, I see now. Your theology includes some kind of contrived time table for who is saved.

So, where in the Bible is this notion taught? Please share.

I KNOW from John 5:24 and 6:47 that as soon as a believer has believed, they possess eternal life. But please try to prove that wrong.

And I KNOW that those given eternal life shall never perish, from John 10:28.

But please try to prove that wrong as well.

Like Ananias and Sapphira, Judas Iscariot, and Simon of Samaria?

Well, now you're just comparing apples to oranges. Ananias and Sapphire and Simon were obviously believers, and A & S received God's discipline of physical death, which had a great effect on the other believers. Simon was SAID to have believed, so that proves he was saved. And yet we can all read what Peter said about him. He still had a problem and needed to confess his sins.

But Judas was NEVER a believer. Proven from these verses:

John 6-
64 - Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

v.64 clearly includes Judas, showing that he didn't believe and was the betrayer.

 

[renniks]

That question should have been directed to you. We ARE supposed to live our lives by faith, from the moment we believe (first) until we die (last). What this verse does NOT even come close to doing is support your claim that salvation is by a lifetime of faithful living. That is a command, sure. But it is NOT in any verse linked to how we are saved.

The righteous WILL live by faith. This is not an option, it's not even only a command. It plainly states that the righteous WILL live by faith from first to last. And I already quoted verses saying that only the righteous enter the kingdom. You are just flat out ignoring what the Word clearly states.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are amusing, I'll give you that?

What are you questioning here? But I think you are amusing.

Why spend time arguing against something I already said I don't hold to?

This is what I posted, that you responded to:
"What do you think this verse teaches? It certainly doesn't support your numbered claim of "works of grace"."

And your response to my comment are totally irrelevant to what I posted.

I'm not sure who you are arguing with, as I never said sanctification was something imposed on us, or anything other than a choice to live as God instructs us to.

Well, move over, because I have no idea what you're arguing about. But I am amused about your posts.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The righteous WILL live by faith.

Do you have any idea what a "policy statement" is? Seems not.

So, I'll give you an example. Restaurant restroom. Sign on inside of the door. Says:
Employees WILL wash their hands

Do you seriously think that means that every single employee will every single time wash their hands? Or maybe, just maybe, the sign is a policy statement about what employees are SUPPOSED TO DO.

Do you see the point?

This is not an option, it's not even only a command. It plainly states that the righteous WILL live by faith from first to last.

Please study real hard what a policy statement is. And then apply it to the verse.

And I already quoted verses saying that only the righteous enter the kingdom.

Uh, no you didn't.

You are just flat out ignoring what the Word clearly states.

OK, I challenge you to cite which post # and my exact words that prove that I've ignored anything.

I'm always tired of such empty and hollow charges.

Either back up your charges, or know that you cannot prove anything.

 

[renniks]

This is what I posted, that you responded to:
"What do you think this verse teaches? It certainly doesn't support your numbered claim of "works of grace"."

I don't even think you read my posts. Because I never said I believed in numbered works of grace.

 

[renniks]

Uh, no you didn't.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous1 will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: xneither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,2 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[jerry kelso]

ch 15 has a number of sections.

v.1-11 speaks to eyewitnesses to Christ's resurrection.
v12-34 speaks to absolute necessity of Christ's resurrection.
v35-49 speaks to our new heavenly bodies (resurrection bodies).
v.50-58 speaks of final victory over death.

freegrace2,

1. You didn’t mention one thing about the struggle between the flesh and the Spirit in that chapter. Why?
That is what I asked for. Try again. Jerry Kelso

 

[renniks]

Do you have any idea what a "policy statement" is? Seems not.

So, I'll give you an example. Restaurant restroom. Sign on inside of the door. Says:
Employees WILL wash their hands

Do you seriously think that means that every single employee will every single time wash their hands? Or maybe, just maybe, the sign is a policy statement about what employees are SUPPOSED TO DO.

Do you see the point?


Please study real hard what a policy statement is. And then apply it to the verse.


Uh, no you didn't.


OK, I challenge you to cite which post # and my exact words that prove that I've ignored anything.

I'm always tired of such empty and hollow charges.

Either back up your charges, or know that you cannot prove anything.

Revelations 21:7-8:Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Only the victorious will inherit the kingdom.
There are no qualifiers, about those that once had faith being exempt from the fire. you aren't just saved by faith, as a one-time deal, you must continue to be faithful in order to attain victory and eternal life.