Salvation Cannot be Lost

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't believe we are slaves to sin. However even Paul said "the things I don't want to do that I do"... I've lived too long to believe sinless humans exist.

You agree with God's Word though - everyone starts out "subject to the prince of the power of the air"/ "dead in sin and trespasses", - right ?

Also, If someone brought to you for you inspection/testing/ a pure bar of gold,
and you had access to a lab that could test it,
to prove it was pure,
would you believe it was a pure bar of gold then, if proven by that laboratory ?

 

[renniks]

You agree with God's Word though - everyone starts out "subject to the prince of the power of the air"/ "dead in sin and trespasses", - right ?

Also, If someone brought to you for you inspection/testing/ a pure bar of gold,
and you had access to a lab that could test it,
to prove it was pure,
would you believe it was a pure bar of gold then, if proven by that laboratory ?

Yes, but are we pure because we are sinless or because Christ became sin for us? 2 Corinthians 5:21

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes, but are we pure because we are sinless or because Christ became sin for us? 2 Corinthians 5:21

Good question, I thought at first.... sorry - Christ became the sin offering , not sin, for us.

Even then, as written, "we purify ourselves because He is pure", and Ekklesia are washed clean by the Word, and by the Blood, and any other ? Much is written in Scripture, and is usually avoided and/or rejected on this forum.

 

[jerry kelso]

I have committed no sin since my repentance from sin.
My salvation won't be sure till the day of the Lord's judgement.


As His seed is that from which I have been (re)gendered, it can not bear the fruit of the devil.
Were I to commit a sin, I would have to admit I wasn't (re)born of God.


It is written..."All unrighteousness is sin:.." (1 John 5:17)


Not, as James writes..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15)
For something to be a sin, it requires a temptation, a lust, an enticement, and conception.
Hardly the things evident in a 'mistake'.


I've never heard the phrase before.


Had Peter fraternized with the Gentiles when the visiting Jews showed up they would have accused him of sin.
He was in a no-win situation.
Peter's real "fault" was his acting in a way that validated the Law's continued reign over men.
But even that was no sin, as there were "thousands" in Jerusalem that were zealous of the Law. (Acts 21:20)


They were "immersed", took part in an event...not into Christ and His death, burial, and resurrection.
Their "baptism" was not to cause their rebirth, so they all still walked in the flesh instead of the Spirit.


I can't get a handle on a question here.??


Again, as salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement of the last day, Ananias and wife manifested who they were really born of by their wicked fruit.


Jesus came and conquered sin, while in the flesh.
By our "immersion" (baptism), into Him we can share in that victory and power over sin.

philw,

1. You have just lied because 1 John 5:13; These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, AND THAT YE MAY BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD!!!!!!!!!!! Your doctrine is wrong. We can be sure of eternal life.
Salvation won’t be final or completed until we die unless we go up in the rapture.

2. We’ve been regenerated not regendered.
David sinned by lust, adultery, and murder but he asked for forgiveness and God said he was a man after his own heart.
Just because he was under the Old Covenant of law doesn’t mean he wasn’t saved. Romans 4:6; he was imputed with righteousness without works.
People under the Old Testament were saved to the uttermost Hebrews 7:25. This happened at the cross Hebrews 9:15; And for this cause he is the mediator of the New Testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal life.
If it weren’t for the cross no one would be saved.
Hebrews 11:40; God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
If you have a charge card and you buy something and the money is there it is in a hold mode until it is okayed and is a final transaction.
The New Covenant is built on better promises but doesn’t make us from the possibility to sin or lose Salvation anymore than Old Testament believers.

3. All unrighteousness is sin is true 1 John 5:17.
Missing the mark covers a lot of ground.
Losing one’s temper, being anxious, not having faith for without it faith one cannot please God. I could go on but these and other things can be very easy to do.
The power of God is strong enough to be sinless forever. However, the problem is man and that makes the probability very low.
Just as much as it is possible to live free from sin at times or a lot of the time or all of the time doesn’t mean one doesn’t have the possibility to sin or that he won’t.

4. All of us are tempted because the devil is out to steal, kill and destroy our lives John 10:10.
James 4:17 is talking to Christians and says; Therefore to him that know to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Yes Christians have the possibility to sin and do.

5. Peter was being hypocritical and Galatians 2:14 Paul says, But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to my the truth of the gospel.
Peter sinned though he was saved. It wasn’t about being zealous of the law. V 16 says it was about being justified by works of the law, for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

6. Annanias and Sapphira was part of those that were saved of the 3000 and continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers.
They lost their salvation because of their sin by lying to the Holy Spirit Acts 5:1-10.

7. We can share in that power of God but it doesn’t mean that one doesn’t have the possibility to sin or that they won’t.
You can’t reconcile all the scriptures on this subject.
The New Covenant is built on better promises Hebrews 8:6-7.
It doesn’t make us infallible. Jerry Kelso

 

[Phil W]

I don't believe we are slaves to sin.

Jesus said..."Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:34)

However even Paul said "the things I don't want to do that I do"... I've lived too long to believe sinless humans exist.

Paul was referring to his days in the flesh: flesh killed in the previous chapter. (Rom 6:3-6)
The results were written in the next verse..."For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)
Calling us "humans" is a bit of a misnomer, as we are new creatures never seen on earth before.

On my best day, my righteous deeds are like a used tampon. And if you find that offensive, remember the Bible said it first.

The only way to change that has already been instituted.
Turn from all sin permanently.
Get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Do these things and you ill receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
Having killed the old man, you will be freed from the flesh so you can start to walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh".
Fail to do these things and you can remain a tampon.

The only way I can come to the throne is clothed in his righteousness. Because I have none of my own.

That isn't going to happen while you are still serving a different 'god'.

 

[Phil W]

philw,
1. You have just lied because 1 John 5:13; These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, AND THAT YE MAY BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD!!!!!!!!!!! Your doctrine is wrong. We can be sure of eternal life.

Are you officially changing sides? Now aligned with grace2?
My salvation will be assured "IF" I remain faithfully obedient.

Salvation won’t be final or completed until we die unless we go up in the rapture.

Make up your mind.

2. We’ve been regenerated not regendered.

As far as I'm concerned they are synonyms.

David sinned by lust, adultery, and murder but he asked for forgiveness and God said he was a man after his own heart.
Just because he was under the Old Covenant of law doesn’t mean he wasn’t saved. Romans 4:6; he was imputed with righteousness without works.

I'm not disputing that, but he had the Law's atonements to cover his sins.
Are you going back to the OT for coverings for your sins?

People under the Old Testament were saved to the uttermost Hebrews 7:25.

You've misread, or misinterpreted, Heb 7:25.
"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him,..."
How many OT people could "come unto God by Him"?
Nobody before Jesus lived, that's for sure.

This happened at the cross Hebrews 9:15; And for this cause he is the mediator of the New Testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal life.
If it weren’t for the cross no one would be saved.

Agreed.

Hebrews 11:40; God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Doesn't that imply that "they WITH us can be made perfect"?

The New Covenant is built on better promises but doesn’t make us from the possibility to sin or lose Salvation anymore than Old Testament believers.

Don't you believe that those born of God's seed cannot bring forth wicked fruit?
1 John 3:9 says it does.

3. All unrighteousness is sin is true 1 John 5:17.
Missing the mark covers a lot of ground.
Losing one’s temper, being anxious, not having faith for without it faith one cannot please God. I could go on but these and other things can be very easy to do.
The power of God is strong enough to be sinless forever. However, the problem is man and that makes the probability very low.

Low, but as you wrote "The power of God is strong enough to be sinless forever."
Don't you believe your own opinion?

Just as much as it is possible to live free from sin at times or a lot of the time or all of the time doesn’t mean one doesn’t have the possibility to sin or that he won’t.

No denying that, and the hundred something exhortations and warnings serve to keep God's children on their toes.

4. All of us are tempted because the devil is out to steal, kill and destroy our lives John 10:10.
James 4:17 is talking to Christians and says; Therefore to him that know to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Yes Christians have the possibility to sin and do.

Then none will be saved.

5. Peter was being hypocritical and Galatians 2:14 Paul says, But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to my the truth of the gospel.
Peter sinned though he was saved. It wasn’t about being zealous of the law. V 16 says it was about being justified by works of the law, for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Hypocritical to who?
The Gentiles? Or the visiting Jews?
He soon found out he couldn't please both.

6. Annanias and Sapphira was part of those that were saved of the 3000 and continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers.
They lost their salvation because of their sin by lying to the Holy Spirit Acts 5:1-10.

Yes, and...?
Don't you expect to "lose your salvation" by other types of sin too?
As you are arguing in favor of faithlessness and lack of power in our own lives, what other judgement do you expect besides destruction?

7. We can share in that power of God but it doesn’t mean that one doesn’t have the possibility to sin or that they won’t.

Then Jesus failed to deliver us from the enemy.
If it is impossible to serve God totally, the devil wins.
Frankly, that idea is a bunch of hooey.
You have surrendered to wickedness.

You can’t reconcile all the scriptures on this subject.
The New Covenant is built on better promises Hebrews 8:6-7.
It doesn’t make us infallible. Jerry Kelso

So the "promises" are lies?
Promises like..."Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)
And..."The truth shall make you free." (John 8:32)
I won't believe such defeatism, as I am partaker of all that Jesus died to accomplish.

 

[Phil W]

Just for examples: Immersion in Jesus' Name sets people free from the power of sin and of the enemy and of the world and of the flesh.
However, they can still stumble/ be deceived, sin again.

They could also remain faithfully obedient to God.
Which side are you on?
You seem to be on two sides in the issue.
"They can...but they might not"?
Pick a side and stick with it.
Do you know what is written about double-minded men? (James 1:8)

 

[renniks]

Jesus said..."Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:34)


Paul was referring to his days in the flesh: flesh killed in the previous chapter. (Rom 6:3-6)
The results were written in the next verse..."For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)
Calling us "humans" is a bit of a misnomer, as we are new creatures never seen on earth before.


The only way to change that has already been instituted.
Turn from all sin permanently.
Get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Do these things and you ill receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
Having killed the old man, you will be freed from the flesh so you can start to walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh".
Fail to do these things and you can remain a tampon.


That isn't going to happen while you are still serving a different 'god'.

There is no one on earth who does what is right all the time and never makes a mistake. Ecc. 7:20

Yes, we walk in the Spirit. Yes, I pray that everything I say and do is filtered through the Spirit.
But belief that you do not sin is itself a sin of pride.

 

[jerry kelso]

Are you officially changing sides? Now aligned with grace2?
My salvation will be assured "IF" I remain faithfully obedient.


Make up your mind.


As far as I'm concerned they are synonyms.


I'm not disputing that, but he had the Law's atonements to cover his sins.
Are you going back to the OT for coverings for your sins?


You've misread, or misinterpreted, Heb 7:25.
"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him,..."
How many OT people could "come unto God by Him"?
Nobody before Jesus lived, that's for sure.


Agreed.


Doesn't that imply that "they WITH us can be made perfect"?


Don't you believe that those born of God's seed cannot bring forth wicked fruit?
1 John 3:9 says it does.


Low, but as you wrote "The power of God is strong enough to be sinless forever."
Don't you believe your own opinion?


No denying that, and the hundred something exhortations and warnings serve to keep God's children on their toes.


Then none will be saved.


Hypocritical to who?
The Gentiles? Or the visiting Jews?
He soon found out he couldn't please both.


Yes, and...?
Don't you expect to "lose your salvation" by other types of sin too?
As you are arguing in favor of faithlessness and lack of power in our own lives, what other judgement do you expect besides destruction?


Then Jesus failed to deliver us from the enemy.
If it is impossible to serve God totally, the devil wins.
Frankly, that idea is a bunch of hooey.
You have surrendered to wickedness.


So the "promises" are lies?
Promises like..."Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)
And..."The truth shall make you free." (John 8:32)
I won't believe such defeatism, as I am partaker of all that Jesus died to accomplish.

philw,

1. Do you believe that you are not sure of salvation till judgement?
The wording you used seemed to imply that.
If you do then you are wrong according to scripture. This was the reason for showing 1 John 5:13.

2. The argument between Calvinists and Arminians is Unconditional and Conditional Eternal Security.
You believe in the extreme of Calvinist for you believe you can’t sin at all for no reason.

3. I have not changed any position for the word has not changed. The faithful will get to Heaven.

4. The law had atonements for sin and we have forgiveness through the blood of Jesus.
David was still a believer in spite of sinning.
The Jews in Ezekiel 18 believed God was unequal in accepting the wicked repenting but would not save them if they didn’t repent.
They were mad that God would not remember their righteousness anymore if they did not repent because they were his chosen people. The righteousness of the law was those that do them shall live in them.
God is no respect of persons and can only punish sin whether in the new or the old covenant.
James was speaking to Christians in James 5:19-20 when he said if a brethren errors from the truth and one converts him converts the sinner from the error of his way, shall save a soul and hide a multitude of sins.
You don’t believe this?

5. Peter was hypocritical because he ate with the gentiles then withdrew and separated from them because he was afraid of the secular Jews. Yes he sinned because he knew better and Paul’s point was not being justified by the works of the law and said Peter was not actually acting righteous! which is being unrighteousness which is sin.
It didn’t mean he was going to Hell. Even under the law all sins were not death penalty sins.

6. A person doesn’t lose their salvation till they reject living for Christ and change back to living for the devil.
Romans 6 beats this out.

7. Jesus never fails, it is man that fails even Christians.
We have free will choice and obviously you don’t believe that or you believe you choose what God wants all the time because you are so in tune with God.
Even Wesley’s sinless perfection didn’t believe that you didn’t have the possibility to sin.

8. What is a bunch of baloney is your refusal to rightly divide the word.

9. Gods promises are true if you believe in faith and follow through by doing them.

10. Have you done everything God has ever asked you to do without fail since becoming a Christian?
Have you ever been in a situation that you offended someone?
Have you ever told a half truth? Have you ever failed to have faith?
Have you ever displeased God in any way?
Have you ever jumped the gun and judged someone wrongly before you got to know them?
Have you ever got upset with someone unfairly?
I ask these in real life experiences and not according to your doctrine. Jerry Kelso

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

They could also remain faithfully obedient to God.
Which side are you on?
You seem to be on two sides in the issue.
"They can...but they might not"?
Pick a side and stick with it.
Do you know what is written about double-minded men? (James 1:8)

I was bought with a precious price, the preciousness of Jesus, and remain on His Side.

Which side would you choose if not His ?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Show me a verse that says non-believers will be saved.

This is a really strange request. I never ever suggested that any unbeliever will be saved.

Why are you so confused about my very clearly stated beliefs?

What John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 tell us is that those who "have not believed" will be condemned.

Can you in honesty say a former believer "has not believed"?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Quite the opposite.
One turn from sin, if real, is all that is necessary.

Do you not understand that people are guilty of many different sins? And yet you think that "one turn from sin" covers all the rest?

That is worse than naive.

If one has "turned from" ALL darkness, and unto the Lord, any sin from the past is just a memory.

You got a verse that supports your opinion here?

"Turn from all sin."
Doesn't that cover the things long forgotten?
I think so.

You got a verse that says any of this?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have concluded that your judgement has already occurred. ie. eternal security.

My conclusion is based solidly supported by Scripture.

Jesus SAID that whoever believes POSSESSES (has) eternal life in John 5:24 and 6:47.

The Beloved disciple said the same thing in 1 John 5:11 and 13.

Jesus said that recipients of eternal life (which MEANS those who have believed) shall never perish in John 10:28.

So my conclusions are biblical. Unlike yours.

The scriptures I cited prove otherwise.

In fact, none of the verses you've cited prove your opinions and claims.

All will be judged for the deeds done in the body, so if evil is found, the judgement will not be eternal life with God.

Again, which verse SAYS THIS??? You don't have any such verse.

The OSAS doctrine is erroneously used as a "get out of hell free card".

No, the OSAS doctrine is based solely on what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

Since John 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:11 and 13 make it clear that one who believes POSSESES (has) eternal life. This clearly means that they possess eternal life WHEN they first believe.

It is on that basis that all recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Period.

 

[FreeGrace2]

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Those who believe possess salvation.

Yes, they do. And Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. That is directly a statement of eternal security.

We must have faith from first to last, not just once upon a time. We have to live by faith.

OK, go back to Rom 1:16,17 and show me where it says we have to live by faith from first to last in order to be saved.

Well, as you know, that isn't found in either verse. So your opinion is wrong.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Who are the righteous?

Interesting. First you quote 2 verses from Rom 1. Then without any explanation you make a huge leap to another passage. Fortunately, I am well versed and I recognize v.9 is from 1 Cor 6. Why wouldn't you at least let others know when you change books and passages?

Those who live by faith, according to Paul. Not the ones who once had faith before they got distracted by the world, or the flesh or the devil, but those currently living by faith.

your opinion is noted. And rejected.

1 Cor 6:9 is one of 3 parallel verses about "inheriting the kingdom".

We also have Eph 5:5 and Gal 5:21.

The contexts are the same. Those who live a certain way (sinful) won't inherit the kingdom.

Both 1 Cor 6:9 and Gal 5:21 says "not inherit the kingdom".

However, Eph 5:5 says "shall have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

You might have noticed that I emphasized the word "in" in Eph 5:5.

Here's the reason: to "not inherit the kingdom" is equivalent to "have no inheritance in the kingdom".

Therefore, it should be clear that "not inheriting" cannot mean "not enter", as you opine.

To "have no inheritance IN the kingdom" does not say "have no entrance in the kingdom". It does NOT exclude entrance into the kingdom, but only notes there will be NO inheritance IN the kingdom.

Therefore, all 3 passages address believers who will be IN the kingdom but will have forfeited their eternal reward because of certain lifestyles, as all 3 passages show.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I hope you can see that the antithesis of "believing the truth" is "delighting in wickedness".
Those still committing sin don't believe the truth.

I wish you could realize that what Jesus said in John 10:28 means that by giving eternal life to the believer WHEN they believe means eternal security.

Your argument is with Jesus. He is the One who clearly taught eternal security, whether you like it or not.

I suggest you get over it and begin to like what Jesus taught.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"You JUST SINNED when you typed that statement.
Sin includes not believing what Jesus taught. He taught that those given eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. And you aren't sure of your salvation.
It is obvious that your repentance isn't complete. Or finished."

I do believe it.

OK, let's test your admission for, well, truthfulness.

Do you believe that a recipient of eternal life CAN perish? yes or no.

I just don't believe everybody who lays claim to that verse is being true about their belief.

What do you mean by "lay claim"?

The final judgement will sort out the wheat from the chaff.

OK, let's just test your truthfulness again.

Well, do you believe that a person receives the gift of eternal life WHEN they believe?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Wow, even the holiness Church's I was raised in allowed that you will need to be sanctified before you quit sinning entirely.

When do you believe (or the church you were raised in) a person is "sanctified"?

 

[FreeGrace2]

My salvation won't be assured till the final judgement on the day of the Lord's return.

So you don't believe Jesus' promise to recipients of eternal life then.

When do you believe that eternal life is given as a gift?

 

[renniks]

OK, go back to Rom 1:16,17 and show me where it says we have to live by faith from first to last in order to be saved.

17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

 

[renniks]

Interesting. First you quote 2 verses from Rom 1. Then without any explanation you make a huge leap to another passage. Fortunately, I am well versed and I recognize v.9 is from 1 Cor 6. Why wouldn't you at least let others know when you change books and passages?

Both 1 Cor 6:9 and Gal 5:21 says "not inherit the kingdom".

However, Eph 5:5 says "shall have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

You might have noticed that I emphasized the word "in" in Eph 5:5.

Here's the reason: to "not inherit the kingdom" is equivalent to "have no inheritance in the kingdom".

Therefore, it should be clear that "not inheriting" cannot mean "not enter", as you opine.

To "have no inheritance IN the kingdom" does not say "have no entrance in the kingdom". It does NOT exclude entrance into the kingdom, but only notes there will be NO inheritance IN the kingdom.

Oh good grief. That's some exegesis worthy of a cult. You spin like a top. Just take the verse for what it says, to have no inheritance in the kingdom of God, is to not inherit the kingdom. I really can't take you serious anymore.