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We have been conned into having to add this caveat.This isn’t to defend a sinful lifestyle in any way.
Amen, brother!We have been conned into having to add this caveat.
The real concern for the workers for salvation is defending THEIR lifestyle. Sad.
Wow, is that confused!!So, it's salvation by works.
Jesus is explaining how to be saved, not talking about the possibility of apostasy. You are trying to get something from the passage that isn't there.Well then, you're just not looking.
Consider "hath not believed". What does that mean? Can it include someone who did believe at one time and then ceased to believe?
Or, does it mean someone who NEVER believed?
Just answer my questions, please.
What does "hath not believed" mean?
Can "hath not believed" include someone who used to believe?
The issue was John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 and the words "has not believed".Jesus is explaining how to be saved, not talking about the possibility of apostasy. You are trying to get something from the passage that isn't there.
I get this all the time from Calvinists. "Answer the question I asked which actually has nothing to do with the verses I quoted." Uh, no, because I refuse to play that game. Scripture has to be read in context or any answers given will not be correct. You might as well ask if two plus three equals purple.I said this:
"Consider "hath not believed". What does that mean? Can it include someone who did believe at one time and then ceased to believe?
Or, does it mean someone who NEVER believed?
Just answer my questions, please.
What does "hath not believed" mean?
Can "hath not believed" include someone who used to believe?"
The issue was John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 and the words "has not believed".
So, they aren't about Jesus explaining how to be svaed. The verses are talking about who will be condemned. That is, those who have not believed.
And, out of curiosity, how come you didn't answer my question regarding the words "has not believed"?
Can those words be applied to someone who used to believe?
I always take a lack of an answer to be an answer. But not in favor of the questionee.
iow, a lack of an answer reveals an inability to answer, or just plain cowardice, knowing that the obvious answer will refute their view.
I said this:
"Consider "hath not believed". What does that mean? Can it include someone who did believe at one time and then ceased to believe?
Or, does it mean someone who NEVER believed?
Just answer my questions, please.
What does "hath not believed" mean?
Can "hath not believed" include someone who used to believe?"
Paul, here are a few considerations ...Question to anyone - is every believer either a Calvinist or an Armenian?
What is the big difference supposed to be?
Paul, here are a few considerations ...
Some Calvinists believe in strict election by God (people do not get to choose Jesus).
Some Calvinists believe salvation cannot be lost.
IMO, all Armenians believe they have chosen Jesus out of their free will.
Some Armenians believe that BACs can choose to fall away out of their free will.
Yes, this is possible ...Why can't God chose to elect some people while letting other people come to Him by free will? Why does it have to be just one or the other?
You must believe Paul knew of Romans 6 before he wrote Romans 7, so, if he knew his old man was dead and buried, (Rom 6:3-6), it is impossible for him to be talking about his life in the flesh in the present tense while writing Rom 7.Please don't dodge my point. You haven't shown ANY support for your historical present claim for ch 7.
I have proved it but you are an unbeliever.When he reminisced, he was clear that he was. But there is no evidence of reminiscing in ch 7. And you can't prove your claim.
"When we were in the flesh..." sounds like a remembrance of a past time.No, the added parentheses were to emphasize or clarify. btw, the Greeks didn't use any punctuation marks.
"When we were in the flesh..."Uh, the issue is the present tense in ch 7.
Uh, the issue is the present tense in ch 7.
He wasn't writing "of his past" in ch 7. You mentioned common sense, but you aren't showing any.
He doesn't have "it" if he followed his own words from Romans 6:3-7.Let's use some common sense here, ok? Paul is referring to a fact that you simply want to deny. When he says "in my flesh", he is referring to his human nature, which he STILL has.
Then you are also an unbeliever of 2 Cor 5:17..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."What Paul was doing was differentiating what is in him. He has the indwelling Holy Spirit and he STILL has his human nature.
Because 2 Cor 5:17 refutes the notion of dual personalities.Why do you balk at the fact that believers have 2 natures; their human sinful nature and a new born again nature, in which the Holy Spirit resides?
It is written..."A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." (James 1:8)Jesus had 2 natures as well. He was fully human, although without any sin, and He was fully Deity.
Acts 10:45 wasn't enough for you?This sounds like nothing more than an opinion. Prove it with some facts, or scholarly sources.
Neither do Jews.I said this:
"Gentile believers didn't immediately receive the Holy Spirit at faith in Christ. But after some period of time, all do receive the Spirit at faith in Christ."
Hardly.Then Gal 2:3, 5 is untrue.
Except in Acts 2:38, and Acts 19, and Acts 8.I said:
"No issue, because there was no mention of receiving the Holy Spirit after water baptism."
"In Him...".Didn't you read or understand what I said? There was NO MENTION of receiving the Holy Spirit after water baptism. So you are just guessing.
Why do you insist on rejecting Gal 3:2 and 5?
Why do you insist on rejecting Gal 3:2 and 5?
I said:
"Here's the ESV:
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
So, what's the problem?"
Believers get baptized...INTO CHRIST.No, I haven't. Here's the NIV:
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
Seems you're not following the discussion very well.
I have Romans 6:3-6 and its evidence in verse 7..."For he who is dead is freed from sin."Yet, you have no evidence for your opinion. I have Gal 3:2,5, Acts 1:5 and what John the baptizer said about his water baptism vs Jesus' Holy Spirit baptism.
Again, it was a one of a kind event; and they were baptized within minutes of receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost...so was still necessary.But it seems you fail to discern the difference. Even though it was clear enough in Acts 10.
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
It was AFTER this that they were water baptized. They received the Holy Spirit by faith, and THEN were water baptized.
That is the proof you are not "in Christ".Yet, since I still possess my human sinful nature, I, like Paul, still struggle with sin.
Your opinion is not supported by Scripture.
By following Jesus and obedience to His word. And believing Gal 3:2,5 about how to receive the Holy Spirit.
As you have made it clear you are still in your old body, with its sinful nature, I don"t expect you to believe anything I post from God.Please show me any verse that says eternal life is by "following Jesus".
In the meantime, consider these verses:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
1 John 5:
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life
You haven't shown any verse about having to follow Jesus to be His sheep. Why do you ignore John 10:9?
Your opinion is not supported in Scripture.
That's your choice.
But sinners, unbelievers, don't believe it either.
It would be delusional to think that Jesus would or could say that to anyone who ever HAD believed in Him.
The FACT that He said "I NEVER knew you" is a clear statement that the crowd had NEVER believed.
As you have made it clear you are still in your old body, with its sinful nature, I don"t expect you to believe anything I post from God.
I don't recall any disagreements with you.Phil W - your post gives me the impression that you are being boastful. I know it is irritating when we get into disagreements, but each of us does the best we can do.
It isn't a boast.Do I understand correctly that you are boasting that you are without sin?
Why Do Calvinists and Arminians Disagree So Strongly?Phil W - your post gives me the impression that you are being boastful. I know it is irritating when we get into disagreements, but each of us does the best we can do.
Do I understand correctly that you are boasting that you are without sin?
Well, now you're getting this from a absolute NON-Calvinist.I get this all the time from Calvinists.
Uh, no, I did not do that. But I dare you to prove your claim."Answer the question I asked which actually has nothing to do with the verses I quoted."
I don't play games. I ask straightforward questions. And I find not many Arminnians willing to answer my questions.Uh, no, because I refuse to play that game.
So, the phrase "has not believed" cannot be answered in your world. OK, got it.Scripture has to be read in context or any answers given will not be correct. You might as well ask if two plus three equals purple.
You gotta be kidding me!! Seriously? So, "has NOT believed" can mean someone who HAS believed at some point?I realize this was directed at someone else, but the answer to your question is obvious. "Hath not believed" can be someone who believed for some time, but then ceased to believe.
OK, now just stop. We're not talking about advantage, etc. We're only talking about what the phrase "has NOT believed" means. And it seems you don't like what it really means either. But it means just what it says.It is no advantage for a person to believe for a little while and then stop.
Once again, I ask for the best and clearest verse that supports your theory here.If that person finishes their life as a non-believer, then they will be judged as a non-believer.
That is absurd. If someone EVER DID believe, then it is complete nonsense to say "they have NOT believed". The Bible never put a timeframe on either verse.From the time when they ceased to believe until the time that they stand before the throne of Jesus for judgment, they have not believed.
The real key is what the Bible says. And the Bible never says that anyone is elected to salvation.If there is a better forum for discussing this, please direct me. I hate to derail the current discussion. But I am finding this Arminian vs Calvinist thing a bit confusing. Why can't God chose to elect some people while letting other people come to Him by free will? Why does it have to be just one or the other?
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