Salvation Cannot be Lost

[Phil W]

Did you pay attention to the verb tenses. All of it was written in the present tense. So it's NOT a "remembrance" of anything.

Some of it is in the present-narrative tense. Also called present-historical.

Have you never related a past event from the perspective of being there?
I played baseball in school, and went all year without a single hit...till the last game.
I got a walk!
I'm standing on the "bag", I'm looking at second base and thinking..."can I steal second"?
I'm inching away from first, one step and then two. My mind is going crazy with joy at being on and fear of what to do next.
The fear is overwhelming me when CRACK...the guy batting after me hit the first pitch back to the pitcher making the third out.
The last three sentences were not past tense, but present historical...speaking from a past perspective.
Just like Paul does in his narrative of a past while still in the flesh.

How can you say you agree with Gal 3:2 and 5 after using Acts 2:38 for how to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?

Because by faith I believed Peter's exhortation.
Nothing done in the Lord is without faith.
You employ faith without an action.
Say it-it happens? I think not.
I show my faith with actions, whether a turn from sin or a baptism for the remission of sins past.
By faith, I believed Peter's promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost because of my turn from sin and baptism.

So what? They ALREADY received the Holy Spirit on the BASIS of faith, not water baptism. They were dunked AFTER they had already received the Spirit. That was my point, which is seems you have missed.

As I posted earlier it was a one time event for the benefit of the visiting Jews.
BTW, how much time elapsed between Cornelius's gang speaking in tongues and their baptism in water?
Five minutes?
How come the twelve at Ephesus didn't get the Holy Ghost "at belief"?
How about the Samaritan "believers"?
The Ethiopian?
The Philippian jailer?

Great question! (How does one "get in Christ"?)
Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Yikes! Your version of the bible has a bad pull to the left.
KJV Eph 1:13..."In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
Your version adds words not in earlier versions of the word of God.
How many folks have "heard the message of truth" without getting "in Christ"?
99%?

Another passage that guarantees eternal security, based on the sealing ministry of the Spirit.

Eternal security is not the question.
How does one "get in Christ"?

To answer your question specifically, one "gets in Christ" by the Holy Spirit. "you also were included IN CHRIST when you believed". That answers your question directly.

That isn't what the verse you quote (from a real bible) says.
Sorry, tainted versions of scripture won't carry the day.
Romans 6:3 says we are "baptized into Christ".

One becomes IN CHRIST when they believe in Him for salvation. No other way.

So, it's salvation by works.

 

[Phil W]

Getting in Christ is a whole different deal than Staying in Christ.
Are the following "believers" still "in Christ"?
-- not practicing righteousness
-- practicing habitual (unrepentant) sin
-- not abiding in Jesus
-- not bearing fruit
-- not loving fellow believers
-- fell away from the faith
-- estranged from Christ
-- fell from grace
-- drew back to perdition
-- not allowed into the Kingdom of God/Christ
-- not allowed into the city of New Jerusalem
-- blotted out of the Book of Life
-- has unforgiveness towards someone
-- hates someone (analgous to murder)
... my memory fails me for more!

If anyone would care to see NT verses
for any of the above, please just ask.

That didn't answer the question...though I realize the question wasn't addressed to you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, those two verses do not "refute my notion." They don't say that anyone who has ever believed will remain a believer, which is what you need them to say to support your position.

Remaining a believer isn't a factor in what Jesus clearly said in John 10:28. He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. But you keep wanting to fight that.

And I DON'T need any verse to say that. In fact, in Luke 8:13 Jesus said some "will believe for a while, and in time of testing, will fall away". What they fall away from is their faith, not salvation.

And John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 both say that condemnation is for those who NEVER BELIEVED.

Anyone who knows Jesus and who follows Him is a believer – and no one can snatch a believer out of Jesus' hands or the Father's hands. However, "if we deny Him, He will deny us, . . .for He cannot deny Himself" (2Tim.2:11-13). As for John 10:27-30, if we stop knowing Him and stop following Him, we, by our own self-willed choice, stop being His sheep. No one has "snatched us out of His hands" in that case; rather, we have abandoned Him.

You're simply adding your flawed opinion into Scripture; which Scripture itself NEVER says.

Passages demonstrating that salvation is conditional upon continued faith:

You were once alienated from God – your very thoughts were hostile towards Him and your deeds were evil. Yet God has now made peace with you through the death of Christ in His physical body so that you may stand before Him as holy, without blemish and free from accusation – [this you will do] if you remain solidly grounded and firmly fixed in the faith, and un-moved from your hope in the gospel . . .
Colossians 1:21-23

No, nothing here stating that salvation is conditional on continuing to believe. What the passage DOES say is that IF the believer "remains grounded" in the faith, that God WILL present the believer holy and blameless (the actual words from the Greek, and not your weakened paraphrase rendition).

Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with Him, we will also live with Him; if we persevere, we will also reign with Him. If we disown Him, He will also disown us; If we are faithless, He will remain faithful, for He cannot disown Himself.
2nd Timothy 2:11-13

In v.12 we have 2 conditions. IF we endure, we will reign with Him. This is an eternal reward; not salvation. The 2nd condition is that if we don't endure (deny/disown) Him, He will deny us that eternal reward of reigning with Him.

It is through this gospel that you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you – otherwise you have believed in vain.
1st Corinthians 15:2

The words "hold firmly" is a single Greek word meaning "possess". It has nothing to do with gripping firmly. And Paul already affirmed that they HAD believed the gospel in v.1.

Further, the words "in vain" is also a single Greek word meaning "without reason". iow, saving faith requires a goal or purpose of one's faith. Believing that Jesus walked in Palestine 2000 years ago isn't saving faith. There's no purpose in believing that.

We are of [Christ's] household, if we hold fast to our courage and confidence in this hope.
Hebrews 3:6

Says nothing about having to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.

For we have all become partners of Christ, if we hold fast to our original conviction firmly to the end.
Hebrews 3:14

To become a partner refers to being in fellowship with Him.

Human example: marriage. Parallels the Bible's words of Groom and Bride (believer).

A married couple are partners only when in fellowship with each other. If one has offended the other one, they are still married, but neither one would think they are in partnership, though married.

But I doubt Arminians will agree with any of this, because it removes their arguments and provides a better explanation of the verses they WANT to teach loss of salvation.

 

[Phil W]

This post demonstrates that this poster does not believe Eph 1:13,14. Those who are sealed with the Holy Spirit are guaranteed an inheritance for the day of redemption.

Not your version of it.

How is that so unclear to our Arminian friends? Or do they just not want to believe what is being taught?

Other verses nullify your POV.

 

[Phil W]

Fact check: do you believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish, or not?
I'll remind you of what Jesus said:
I give them eternal life and they shall never perish.

What happens to the sheep that are not His?
You know, the ones who don't follow Him?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Some of it is in the present-narrative tense. Also called present-historical.

Please cite a source for this and provide more information. The point is that Paul was speaking in the present tense.

Have you never related a past event from the perspective of being there?

No. When I relate a past event, I used past tense verbs. "I did...". "I was...". etc.

I played baseball in school, and went all year without a single hit...till the last game.
I got a walk!

All of this is in the Past tense. Thanks for the example.

I'm standing on the "bag", I'm looking at second base and thinking..."can I steal second"?

If this was preceded by an explanation of a PAST EVENT, then it would be a present historical. But Paul DIDN'T provide any such explanation in Romans 7.

I'm inching away from first, one step and then two. My mind is going crazy with joy at being on and fear of what to do next.
The fear is overwhelming me when CRACK...the guy batting after me hit the first pitch back to the pitcher making the third out.
The last three sentences were not past tense, but present historical...speaking from a past perspective.
Just like Paul does in his narrative of a past while still in the flesh.

OK, professor, please cite the EXACT words in Romans 7 that justify calling the chapter a present historical.

By faith, I believed Peter's promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost because of my turn from sin and baptism.

What he told that crowd was unique. They had just participated in the crucifixion, and by v.37, were totally convicted of their sin. That's why they asked Peter what to do.

Peter's answer was SPECIFIC to their unique position. Gal 3:2,5 apply to all believers after that. The Spirit is received by believing in Christ.

As I posted earlier it was a one time event for the benefit of the visiting Jews.
BTW, how much time elapsed between Cornelius's gang speaking in tongues and their baptism in water?
Five minutes?

So what? They were baptized with the Spirit BEFORE Peter got out the water.

How come the twelve at Ephesus didn't get the Holy Ghost "at belief"?

How about the Samaritan "believers"?[/QUOTE]
Gentile believers didn't immediately receive the Holy Spirit at faith in Christ. But after some period of time, all do receive the Spirit at faith in Christ.

The Ethiopian?

No issue, because there was no mention of receiving the Holy Spirit after water baptism.

The Philippian jailer?

His water baptism followed faith in Christ and no mention of when the Spirit was received.

Yikes! Your version of the bible has a bad pull to the left.
KJV Eph 1:13..."In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
Your version adds words not in earlier versions of the word of God.

Here's the ESV:
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

So, what's the problem?

How many folks have "heard the message of truth" without getting "in Christ"?
99%?

I have no idea the percentage. What I do know is that not everyone who has 'heard the message of truth' believes the message of truth.

The key is those who have BELIEVED the message of truth.

Eternal security is not the question.
How does one "get in Christ"?

Again, as I said before, by believing the message of truth; that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing, have eternal life in His Name.

That isn't what the verse you quote (from a real bible) says.

So I don't have a real Bible? Get real.

Sorry, tainted versions of scripture won't carry the day.

Ditto.

Romans 6:3 says we are "baptized into Christ".

I refer you to Acts 1:5 - For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Words of Jesus.

Words of John: I indeed have baptised you with water, but he shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit. Mark 1:8

So, it's salvation by works.

No, it's salvation by grace, through faith. Eph 2:8 says so.

 

[BCsenior]

Getting in Christ is a whole different deal than Staying in Christ.
Are the following "believers" still "in Christ"?
-- not practicing righteousness
-- practicing habitual (unrepentant) sin
-- not abiding in Jesus
-- not bearing fruit
-- not loving fellow believers
-- fell away from the faith
-- estranged from Christ
-- fell from grace
-- drew back to perdition
-- not allowed into the Kingdom of God/Christ
-- not allowed into the city of New Jerusalem
-- blotted out of the Book of Life
-- has unforgiveness towards someone
-- hates someone (analgous to murder)
(my memory fails me for more!)

No one ... BACs, non-BACs, unfaithful BACs, etc.
... wants to see NT verses for any of the above!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"This post demonstrates that this poster does not believe Eph 1:13,14. Those who are sealed with the Holy Spirit are guaranteed an inheritance for the day of redemption."

Not your version of it.
Other verses nullify your POV.

Instead of just throwing out unsubstantiated claims, could you provide some evidence for your claims?

Claims are cheap. Evidence is golden.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Fact check: do you believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish, or not?
I'll remind you of what Jesus said:
I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."

What happens to the sheep that are not His?

They will end up in the lake of fire. Rev 20:15

You know, the ones who don't follow Him?

Why didn't you answer my question? Are you just trying to distract away from it so you won't have to answer it?

Do you believe that recipients of eternal life can perish, or not?

I'll ask this until you either provide a yes or no answer, or you tell me plainly that you have no intention of answering it.

I say this so that you and the mods will know that I'm not trolling you. I think it reasonable that you DO answer the question, given your views thus far.

 

[renniks]

And John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 both say that condemnation is for those who NEVER BELIEVED.

18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Um, I don't see the word "never" anywhere. I think you are adding your flawed theology to scripture.

 

[BCsenior]

18 He that believeth on him is not judged:
he that believeth not hath been judged already,
because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Um, I don't see the word "never" anywhere.
I think you are adding your flawed theology to scripture.

IMO, he specializes in ignoring many NT verses (as opposed to adding flawed theology).

It is absolutely necessary to RECONCILE all of the NT verses (for a particular topic),
which is the total opposite of ignoring and rejecting the verses one doesn't like.

 

[FreeGrace2]

18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Um, I don't see the word "never" anywhere.

Well then, you're just not looking.

Consider "hath not believed". What does that mean? Can it include someone who did believe at one time and then ceased to believe?

Or, does it mean someone who NEVER believed?

I think you are adding your flawed theology to scripture.

Just answer my questions, please.

What does "hath not believed" mean?

Can "hath not believed" include someone who used to believe?

 

[FreeGrace2]

IMO, he specializes in ignoring many NT verses (as opposed to adding flawed theology).

And you know better than that. I've answered the verses provided by Arminians and have explained them and shown that none of them are about loss of salvation.

And as yet, no Arminian has ever provided any verse that plainly says that salvation can be lost.

If salvation could be lost, I'm more than sure the Bible would very clearly say so.

It is absolutely necessary to RECONCILE all of the NT verses (for a particular topic), which is the total opposite of ignoring and rejecting the verses one doesn't like.

There are no verses that I don't like.

Why do you think it's necessary to demonize me like that?

Just give me your single best verse that tells us that salvation can be lost. I've given you mine on eternal security.

So, let me ask you:

Can a recipient of eternal life ever perish?

If yes, under what circumstances?

And provide Scripture to support your answer.

 

[Paul McGraw]

FreeGrace2 - it is clear to me that you and I will never agree on this issue. If you can read John 10 and not see that plain meaning (at least plain to me) then why continue?

Regarding Arminianism, I just checked Arminianism - Wikipedia since I am not familiar with exactly what Arminianism is. Based on the Wiki article, it sounds more like your position than mine. There are many areas of theology that to me are confusing, and as a result, I take no personal position. I am a layman. I am not a member of any denomination right now. Though I would not be opposed to being in a congregation, even if I disagreed with some of their teachings.

 

[Phil W]

Please cite a source for this and provide more information. The point is that Paul was speaking in the present tense.

Do you suppose he wrote chapter 7 without remembering what he wrote about the death of the flesh in chapter 6?
Were Rom 7 in the "present tense" Paul wouldn't have twice cited former times with mentions of his flesh.
Verse 5..."For when we were in the flesh..."
Verse 18..."(that is in my flesh)...parenthesized to indicate a different condition than presently.

No. When I relate a past event, I used past tense verbs. "I did...". "I was...". etc.
All of this is in the Past tense. Thanks for the example.

I realize it is difficult to see a long held belief scuttled with common sense.
Verse 23 is addressed in Rom 8:2...it isn't "present tense".
Verse 24 was addressed in Rom 6:6...it isn't "present tense".
Rather it is the information Paul possessed while writing of his past in Rom 7.

If this was preceded by an explanation of a PAST EVENT, then it would be a present historical. But Paul DIDN'T provide any such explanation in Romans 7.

He provided it with Romans 6.

OK, professor, please cite the EXACT words in Romans 7 that justify calling the chapter a present historical.

Verse 18..."For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
He hadn't been "in the flesh" since he was crucified with Christ...in Rom 6:3-6.

What he told that crowd was unique. They had just participated in the crucifixion, and by v.37, were totally convicted of their sin. That's why they asked Peter what to do.

Unique, but not in alignment with your doctrine?
BTW, it was forty days later.

Peter's answer was SPECIFIC to their unique position. Gal 3:2,5 apply to all believers after that. The Spirit is received by believing in Christ.

Without faith, there would be no repentance from sin or baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of sins.
Without repentance, at least, there is no gift of the Holy Ghost.
Without baptism in the name of Jesus Christ there is no remission of sins.

So what? They (Cornelius's household) were baptized with the Spirit BEFORE Peter got out the water.

And the Jews were amazed...at what..."And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 10:45)
The sole purpose of them receiving the Holy Ghost before baptism was to "astonish the circumcision".

Gentile believers didn't immediately receive the Holy Spirit at faith in Christ. But after some period of time, all do receive the Spirit at faith in Christ.

If all it takes is faith, your platform is untrue.

No issue, because there was no mention of receiving the Holy Spirit after water baptism.

You are ignoring the fact that "he believed" but didn't get the gift of the holy Ghost...till some unknown time later.
Isn't that the basis of our disagreement?
You postulate that belief is the only thing necessary to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost but it didn't happen that way on any occasions but Cornelius.

His water baptism followed faith in Christ and no mention of when the Spirit was received.

Then you better quit saying that all that is necessary to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost is belief.

Here's the ESV:
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
So, what's the problem?

You forgot the part that says "in Him".
As water baptism is our "immersion into Christ", baptism must come first.
Otherwise you are believing "out of Him".

I have no idea the percentage. What I do know is that not everyone who has 'heard the message of truth' believes the message of truth.

"Faith cometh by hearing..."
But not all have faith.

The key is those who have BELIEVED the message of truth.

Believed...but didn't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Again, as I said before, by believing the message of truth; that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing, have eternal life in His Name.

...even if they don't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?
Can't agree.
Simon of Samaria is a good example of "belief" without the Holy Ghost or eternal life.

I refer you to Acts 1:5 - For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Words of Jesus.
Words of John: I indeed have baptised you with water, but he shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit. Mark 1:8

That doesn't negate the fact that we are "immersed" into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection by water baptism. (Rom 6:3-6)
The result?..."For he that is dead is freed from sin." (v 7)
Did your method of salvation make you a non-sinner?
If it did, it is from God.

No, it's salvation by grace, through faith. Eph 2:8 says so.

I believe the truth of Eph 2:8, and my faith is manifested by my adherence to the commandments of Jesus and His apostles.
Including Acts 2:38.
How is your faith manifested?

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"This post demonstrates that this poster does not believe Eph 1:13,14. Those who are sealed with the Holy Spirit are guaranteed an inheritance for the day of redemption."

Instead of just throwing out unsubstantiated claims, could you provide some evidence for your claims?

Claims are cheap. Evidence is golden.

The Samaritans and the twelve at Ephesus refute your POV.
They all believed but didn't get the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"Fact check: do you believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish, or not?
I'll remind you of what Jesus said:
I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."

They will end up in the lake of fire. Rev 20:15


Why didn't you answer my question? Are you just trying to distract away from it so you won't have to answer it?

If they are "His sheep", manifested by their following Him, they will receive eternal life.
If they don't follow Him, they are not His sheep and will receive nothing but damnation.
Sinners are not His sheep and will perish.

Do you believe that recipients of eternal life can perish?

I don't believe it.
But sinners, unbelievers, don't believe it either.
They think that no matter what they do, they have said the magic words that open the door to heaven.

Jesus said unto them "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:23)

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 - it is clear to me that you and I will never agree on this issue. If you can read John 10 and not see that plain meaning (at least plain to me) then why continue?

Quitting is your call. I will always respond to posts to me. This is a matter of defending truth. You have admitted that you see both sides of the issue in Scripture. That means you view Scripture as contradicted. It is that simple, whether you understand that or not.

Regarding Arminianism, I just checked Arminianism - Wikipedia since I am not familiar with exactly what Arminianism is. Based on the Wiki article, it sounds more like your position than mine.

Well then, Wiki isn't worth much in the realm of reality. I use the term Arminian to group all who believe that salvation can be lost.

There are many areas of theology that to me are confusing, and as a result, I take no personal position.

You have taken a position on eternal security, in spite of STILL not providing any verse that outright says salvation can be lost.

The statement by Jesus regarding recipients of eternal life is definitely a statement about eternal security.

I've been asking a simple question, but no one is answering.

Do you believe that a recipient of eternal life CAN perish?

If so, what are the criteria for them to perish. Please include Scripture to support your answer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you suppose he wrote chapter 7 without remembering what he wrote about the death of the flesh in chapter 6?

Please don't dodge my point. You haven't shown ANY support for your historical present claim for ch 7.

Were Rom 7 in the "present tense" Paul wouldn't have twice cited former times with mentions of his flesh.
Verse 5..."For when we were in the flesh..."

When he reminisced, he was clear that he was. But there is no evidence of reminiscing in ch 7. And you can't prove your claim.

Verse 18..."(that is in my flesh)...parenthesized to indicate a different condition than presently.

No, the added parentheses were to emphasize or clarify. btw, the Greeks didn't use any punctuation marks.

I realize it is difficult to see a long held belief scuttled with common sense.

lol

Verse 23 is addressed in Rom 8:2...it isn't "present tense".

Uh, the issue is the present tense in ch 7.

Verse 24 was addressed in Rom 6:6...it isn't "present tense".

Uh, the issue is the present tense in ch 7.

Rather it is the information Paul possessed while writing of his past in Rom 7.

He wasn't writing "of his past" in ch 7. You mentioned common sense, but you aren't showing any.

Verse 18..."For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
He hadn't been "in the flesh" since he was crucified with Christ...in Rom 6:3-6.

Let's use some common sense here, ok? Paul is referring to a fact that you simply want to deny. When he says "in my flesh", he is referring to his human nature, which he STILL has.

What Paul was doing was differentiating what is in him. He has the indwelling Holy Spirit and he STILL has his human nature.

Why do you balk at the fact that believers have 2 natures; their human sinful nature and a new born again nature, in which the Holy Spirit resides?

Jesus had 2 natures as well. He was fully human, although without any sin, and He was fully Deity.

And the Jews were amazed...at what..."And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 10:45)
The sole purpose of them receiving the Holy Ghost before baptism was to "astonish the circumcision".

This sounds like nothing more than an opinion. Prove it with some facts, or scholarly sources.

I said this:
"Gentile believers didn't immediately receive the Holy Spirit at faith in Christ. But after some period of time, all do receive the Spirit at faith in Christ."

If all it takes is faith, your platform is untrue.

Then Gal 2:3, 5 is untrue.

I said:
"No issue, because there was no mention of receiving the Holy Spirit after water baptism."

You are ignoring the fact that "he believed" but didn't get the gift of the holy Ghost...till some unknown time later.

Didn't you read or understand what I said? There was NO MENTION of receiving the Holy Spirit after water baptism. So you are just guessing.

Isn't that the basis of our disagreement?
You postulate that belief is the only thing necessary to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost but it didn't happen that way on any occasions but Cornelius.

Why do you insist on rejecting Gal 3:2 and 5?

Then you better quit saying that all that is necessary to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost is belief.

Why do you insist on rejecting Gal 3:2 and 5?

I said:
"Here's the ESV:
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
So, what's the problem?"

You forgot the part that says "in Him".

No, I haven't. Here's the NIV:
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Seems you're not following the discussion very well.

As water baptism is our "immersion into Christ", baptism must come first.
Otherwise you are believing "out of Him".

Yet, you have no evidence for your opinion. I have Gal 3:2,5, Acts 1:5 and what John the baptizer said about his water baptism vs Jesus' Holy Spirit baptism.

But it seems you fail to discern the difference. Even though it was clear enough in Acts 10.
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.

It was AFTER this that they were water baptized. They received the Holy Spirit by faith, and THEN were water baptized.

"Faith cometh by hearing..."
But not all have faith.

And they are not saved.

I said:
"The key is those who have BELIEVED the message of truth."

Believed...but didn't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Says you. Paul says Gal 3:2,5. I believe Paul.

...even if they don't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Where does the Bible support your opinions?

Again, Paul says we receive the Spirit by faith. Gal 3:2,5

Can't agree.

That's your freedom. To make mistakes.

Simon of Samaria is a good example of "belief" without the Holy Ghost or eternal life.

Where does the Bible say that. What Luke said about Simon he said about the rest of the people who believed.

Acts 8-
12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

You have opinions. I have Scripture.

That doesn't negate the fact that we are "immersed" into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection by water baptism. (Rom 6:3-6)

Water baptism is a symbol only. 1 Pet 3:21

We are "immersed" into Christ when the Holy Spirit indwells the believer. At the moment of faith in Christ.

The result?..."For he that is dead is freed from sin." (v 7)

Free from the penalty of sin, obviously.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Red words are present tense. We have eternal life NOW, when we believe.
Blue words are future tense. No condemnation.
Green words are past tense. That's justification. Once justified, always justified.

Did your method of salvation make you a non-sinner?

"My method"??? No, I followed the Bible. I placed my faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross for my sins to be saved.

Yet, since I still possess my human sinful nature, I, like Paul, still struggle with sin.

If it did, it is from God.

Your opinion is not supported by Scripture.

I believe the truth of Eph 2:8, and my faith is manifested by my adherence to the commandments of Jesus and His apostles.
Including Acts 2:38.
How is your faith manifested?

By following Jesus and obedience to His word. And believing Gal 3:2,5 about how to receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If they are "His sheep", manifested by their following Him, they will receive eternal life.

Please show me any verse that says eternal life is by "following Jesus".

In the meantime, consider these verses:

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

If they don't follow Him, they are not His sheep and will receive nothing but damnation.

You haven't shown any verse about having to follow Jesus to be His sheep. Why do you ignore John 10:9?

Sinners are not His sheep and will perish.

Your opinion is not supported in Scripture.

I don't believe it.

That's your choice.
But sinners, unbelievers, don't believe it either.

Jesus said unto them "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:23)

It would be delusional to think that Jesus would or could say that to anyone who ever HAD believed in Him.

The FACT that He said "I NEVER knew you" is a clear statement that the crowd had NEVER believed.