Salvation and the Trinity

[2ducklow]

The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. Acts 17:24–25.

For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed. Mal. 3:6.

Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. Ps. 90:2.

Am I a God at hand, declares the Lord, and not a God far away? Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? Jer. 23:23–24.

Other than having some picture in our heads of some kind of superhero with big muscles, can any human being really mentally "capture" these passages?

It does not contradict scripture to state that God possesses incommunicable attributes. Indeed if he didn't he wouldn't be God. You are indeed correct - not all scripture can be "captured" - by the mind. Therefore is there some other faculty by which we're meant to read it?

I did not say that. all scripture can be captured or understood by the mind and scripture says so.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If you can't understand scripture it isn't profitable for anything; therefore, all scritpure is understandable. any interpretation that isn't understandable is incorrect, such as god is 3 no god isn't 3 God is one, no god isn't one , god is three. Which of course is the trinity doctrine in a nutshell. Is, isn't.

God is entirely expressible by his word, but not wholly conceivable.

A lot of worship comes down to "God is big and strong". Of course he is - bigger and stronger than your mind.

you're just avoiding the real and only reason you say god is and isn't. Namely that your doctrine is that God is 3 and isn't 3 and God is one and isn't one. you call your doctrine God. But it isn't God who is not understandable it is your doctrine that god is 3 and one that isn't understandable. That's why you don't name what isn't understandable but prefer to just say God is not understandable, to hide the real thing , which is your doctrine, that isn't understandable.

 

[it'sme]

More bad translations, the letter klleth, you are killing the word of God with your letter of the word.

Here is a new thought for you using God’s Word not my opinion. Notice I also use God’s Word to interpret the verse instead of some long dead (Latin) church school. So who do you believe; God’s Word or man religious tradition?

Matt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divided his sheep from the goats:

The bible symbolizes goats as ones in opposition to Jehovah.

Jeremiah 51:39 “When they are heated I shall set their banquets and I will make them drunk, in order that they may exult; and they must sleep an indefinitely lasting sleep, from which they will not wake up,” is the utterance of Jehovah. 40 “I shall bring them down like male sheep to the slaughtering, like rams along with the he-goats.”

 

[it'sme]

I'm not speculating about anything since such speculation would only be another concept. I'm merely pointing out that certain aspects of God which are clearly expressed are also inconceivable. one such concept is the contradiction/coalescence of "is" and "is not" within the trinity. The concept of trinity is clearly expressed. Its nature is not conceivable.

Gods word is understandable and uses reason. The reason is not understood and is a mystery is that is is from Satan. And is a pagan idea. Not an idea from the bible.

 

[467AIR]

Please read your Bible, goats are clean animals used for sacrific under Mosaic law, you ever heard of a scape goat, Jesus was a Jew and knew this, maybe it is time for you to search God's Word instead of puppet the JW religion.

Leviticus3: 11And the priest shall burn it upon the altar: it is the food of the offering made by fire unto the LORD.

12And if his offering be a goat, then he shall offer it before the LORD. 13And he shall lay his hand upon the head of it, and kill it before the tabernacle of the congregation: and the sons of Aaron shall sprinkle the blood thereof upon the altar round about.


Deuteronomy 14:3Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing.
4These are the beasts which ye shall eat: the ox, the sheep, and the goat, 5The hart, and the roebuck, and the fallow deer, and the wild goat, and the pygarg, and the wild ox, and the chamois.

The bible symbolizes goats as ones in opposition to Jehovah.

Jeremiah 51:39 “When they are heated I shall set their banquets and I will make them drunk, in order that they may exult; and they must sleep an indefinitely lasting sleep, from which they will not wake up,” is the utterance of Jehovah. 40 “I shall bring them down like male sheep to the slaughtering, like rams along with the he-goats.”

[/color]

 

[it'sme]

Please read your Bible, goats are clean animals used for sacrific under Mosaic law, you ever heard of a scape goat, Jesus was a Jew and knew this, maybe it is time for you to search God's Word instead of puppet the JW religion.

In the bible the term goat is used to symbolize, persons that do not want to serve God. They have their own stubborn way. That is why they are called goat's.

 

[467AIR]

Well then you are only picking and choosing the verses you want to read. I just posted two examples of a goat is clean, do I need to post them all?

If God's spirit wanted to show us an unclean animal he would of used a pig which is very symbolic of the world, but no he used a goat for he is speaking to believers not the world, the world could care less about spiritual matters for they are unclean and have not received the blood of the lamb for God has not called them yet.

You see a goat will eat anything including certain Bibles that are controlled by someones HQ's.

In the bible the term goat is used to symbolize, persons that do not want to serve God. They have their own stubborn way. That is why they are called goat's.

 

[it'sme]

Well then you are only picking and choosing the verses you want to read. I just posted two examples of a goat is clean, do I need to post them all?

It has nothing to do with a goat being clean. It is about a goat being stubborn, rebellious.

 

[467AIR]

Are we not talking about the Bible here? Was there not a mosaic law Jesus lived under during his 33 years on earth? Yes it does matter, It matters alot unless you want a believe in a limited understanding of God's Word. This is the problem with religious men they try to fit God's Word which is divine in their little religious box ignoring the facts, it will never fits.

It has nothing to do with a goat being clean. It is about a goat being stubborn, rebellious.

 

[it'sme]

Are we not talking about the Bible here? Was there not a mosaic law Jesus lived under during his 33 years on earth? Yes it does matter, It matters alot unless you want a believe in a limited understanding of God's Word. This is the problem with religious men they try to fit God's Word which is divine in their little religious box ignoring the facts, it will never fits.

The bible says that men will be separated just the sheep from the goats. The reason the goats were not deserving of life, was becasue they were stubborn and rebellious. That is why that illustration was used. The people because they lived with these animals. Got the point right away.
Jesus lived as a Jew under the law, until he died. After he died the law was fulfilled in him. From then on the Jews as a religion were cast off by Jesus. It's not a good thing to kill Gods Son.

 

[467AIR]

Jesus was preordained to die before He was born, for the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth, this was God's divine plan not the Jews who only did God's will at Calvary.


1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Religion is stubborn and rebellious, just like the Jews and religions hear man and reject what God's Word is saying. Carnal man could care less about anything spiritual for he is dead in trustpasses and sin.

Carnal man is a creature of darkness and that is the way God created him (created us), it was not man's choice to be this way. We were all born just like our great................grandfather Adam after the fall. We were born in darkness, our nature rejects all things of God until God turns on the light.

"The Bible plainly teaches that fallen man is blinded to the truth; the soulical man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned, and the soulical man has not the Spirit. Thus the sinner does not realize and appreciate the value of the salvation that is offered to him. In the first place, he does not know he is lost, and hence feels no need of salvation. Secondly, this sinner does not know that the salvation offered him In Christ is worth anything. All he has to go by in determining its worth is the lives of those who profess to possess it, and they for the most part, are very deficient illustrations of its merit. Furthermore, the sinner is surrounded by circumstances entirely adverse to his acceptance of Christ. And finally, worse than all, 'the mind of the flesh,' a corrupt nature, an 'evil heart of unbelief,' a 'body of death,' that leans toward the bad and opposes the good continually; and mark you, all these things are circumstances over which the individual has no control and for which he is not to blame.

So it is the religious man who is the goat.

The bible says that men will be separated just the sheep from the goats. The reason the goats were not deserving of life, was becasue they were stubborn and rebellious. That is why that illustration was used. The people because they lived with these animals. Got the point right away.
Jesus lived as a Jew under the law, until he died. After he died the law was fulfilled in him. From then on the Jews as a religion were cast off by Jesus. It's not a good thing to kill Gods Son.

 

[it'sme]

Jesus was preordained to die before He was born, for the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth, this was God's divine plan not the Jews who only did God's will at Calvary.

Jehovah assigned his own firstborn Son to fulfill the prophesied role of the “seed” and become the Messiah. There is nothing to show that that Son was “predestined” to such a role even before his creation or before rebellion broke out in Eden. God’s eventual selection of him as the one charged with fulfilling the prophecies likewise was not made without prior basis. The period of intimate association between God and his Son previous to the Son’s being sent to earth undoubtedly resulted in Jehovah’s ‘knowing’ his Son to an extent that He could be certain of his Son’s faithful fulfillment of the prophetic promises and pictures.


Matthew 26: 39 And going a little way forward, he fell upon his face, praying and saying: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.”

This tell us that Jesus was praying to his father ( so he wasn't talking to himself) and asked if he could have this test he was going to go through put aside, but then he says not my will but your will. Jehovah and Jesus are not the same entity. But Jesus always does the will of his Father.

 

[467AIR]

Jesus is not God's first born son, Adam was. No he was not talking to himself for he was a flesh man just like you and me, difference being he was perfect and we are not, He was God manifested in the flesh (which is a scritural reference you reject), we were all born of Adam, Jesus was conceived by God's Spirit in a virgin.

Jehovah assigned his own firstborn Son to fulfill the prophesied role of the “seed” and become the Messiah. There is nothing to show that that Son was “predestined” to such a role even before his creation or before rebellion broke out in Eden. God’s eventual selection of him as the one charged with fulfilling the prophecies likewise was not made without prior basis. The period of intimate association between God and his Son previous to the Son’s being sent to earth undoubtedly resulted in Jehovah’s ‘knowing’ his Son to an extent that He could be certain of his Son’s faithful fulfillment of the prophetic promises and pictures.


Matthew 26: 39 And going a little way forward, he fell upon his face, praying and saying: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.”

This tell us that Jesus was praying to his father ( so he wasn't talking to himself) and asked if he could have this test he was going to go through put aside, but then he says not my will but your will. Jehovah and Jesus are not the same entity. But Jesus always does the will of his Father.

 

[RMDY]

Matthew 26: 39 And going a little way forward, he fell upon his face, praying and saying: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.”

That was in his humanity, not in his divinity. Jesus was tempted as we are, yet without sin. He knew his mission and experience what we would experience. That's him speaking as a man with his human nature, not with his divine.

 

[it'sme]

That was in his humanity, not in his divinity. Jesus was tempted as we are, yet without sin. He knew his mission and experience what we would experience. That's him speaking as a man with his human nature, not with his divine.

Ok then who was he talking to? And why was he asking God for this cup to be removed from him?

 

[RMDY]

That was in his humanity, not in his divinity. Jesus was tempted as we are, yet without sin. He knew his mission and experience what we would experience. That's him speaking as a man with his human nature, not with his divine.

Ok then who was he talking to? And why was he asking God for this cup to be removed from him?

As a man He was subject to God and also a high priest. Jesus was tempted as we are, yet without sin.

 

[467AIR]

Jesus is God manifested in the flesh and He is many things because of this, He is our spiritual example of whom and what God is God's nature and character in human flesh. He is the Lamb of God who lay down his life for all of His creation. He purposely took on human form so he could be the ultimate sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. He is the mercy seat, the Ark of God, the Holy of holies, He is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end and all the Greek letters in between. He was the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth, and to be slain he took on human form, but never its nature for His nature and character is God manifested in flesh. Not one drop of Adam’s blood flowed though his veins for the blood line goes thought the father not the mother. His birth was divine and his death was the reason he came. He is the Lord of Lords, King of kings the mighty God.

That was in his humanity, not in his divinity. Jesus was tempted as we are, yet without sin. He knew his mission and experience what we would experience. That's him speaking as a man with his human nature, not with his divine.

Ok then who was he talking to? And why was he asking God for this cup to be removed from him?

 

[it'sme]

As a man He was subject to God and also a high priest. Jesus was tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Yes but , was Jesus talking to someone in heaven when he was praying. He also asked for this cup to be passed from him. So was he really talking to someone else ( Jehovah), or what was he doing?

 

[467AIR]

You still do not get it. Jesus was taking to God who is spirit, at this time he was not glorified, HE was human flesh much like you and I, but He was still God manifested in the flesh. You are assuming God cannot be both flesh and spirit at the same time. Yes the flesh is limited to one being, but there is no limits in the realm of the spirit. God is not a man He is the creator of all things and He manifested himself as Jesus.

Forget all you been told, forget your human religious reason and believe God's Word "God was manifested in the flesh".

Yes but , was Jesus talking to someone in heaven when he was praying. He also asked for this cup to be passed from him. So was he really talking to someone else ( Jehovah), or what was he doing?

 

[it'sme]

You still do not get it. Jesus was taking to God who is spirit, at this time he was not glorified, HE was human flesh much like you and I, but He was still God manifested in the flesh. You are assuming God cannot be both flesh and spirit at the same time. Yes the flesh is limited to one being, but there is no limits in the realm of the spirit. God is not a man He is the creator of all things and He manifested himself as Jesus.

Forget all you been told, forget your human religious reason and believe God's Word "God was manifested in the flesh".

You do know that the trinity is a pagan idea. That the thinking the Jehovah is Jesus comes from paganism. The Jews were expecting Jehovahs Son on God himself. It was the Phariesees or religious leaders that said Jesus was equal to God. You realize that !

What is the origin of the Trinity doctrine?
The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

 

[467AIR]

I am not a trinitarian I have told you this at least three times. What is not pagan is the 1 Tim. 3: which you reject because it does not fit in your JW little box. God is one, He was also God manifested in the flesh which is Jesus. You are not addressing this verse.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You do know that the trinity is a pagan idea. That the thinking the Jehovah is Jesus comes from paganism. The Jews were expecting Jehovahs Son on God himself. It was the Phariesees or religious leaders that said Jesus was equal to God. You realize that !

What is the origin of the Trinity doctrine?
The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.