Salvation and Obedience: Can you have one without the other?

We do good works because we love God. It is because we have been given a new love for Him and also our neighbour.

Now here is something that I find rather interesting. (I may have mentioned it before, but I did not add the last verse in)
Jesus told us in Mark 16:15 to "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation." This is what he commanded. He also said, "Those that love me will keep my commands." So, if we truly love Him, we will go out there and tell the good news as He commanded.
If we love our neighbour as we love ourselves, then we would want to tell as many people as possible. Sadly, many believers just sit in pews and never tell the good news to others. They do not see the urgency for it. Some just do good deeds and then say that they have been sharing the Gospel through works when in reality, they have not even spoken of the cross.
Then in James 4:17 it says, "So for one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, for him it is sin."
We all know the good we ought to do. We are to speak the Gospel to as many people as possible. That is loving our God and our neighbour. By not doing it, even though we know we should, we are sinning and not honouring our God.

I will take the old standby section of verses used to say a person must repent to receive salvation that is Acts 2:36,37,38 and Acts 3:17,18,19

So repentance is required to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. If that is the case then why is there no mention in these section of verses from Acts 2 and 3 about believing in Jesus for Eternal Life.
I know why people like to used the word salvation when they talk about being saved. Because if they use receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life instead of the word salvation. They would not be able to tell the people they are speaking to. To repent of their sins, because there are no verses in The Bible that will support using repentance to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


“Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

d taylor said:

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Why is there no mention in these section of verses from Acts 2 and 3 about believing in Jesus for Eternal Life?

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Not 100% sure in your post what you are asking but think I have the right sentence.
It comes down to your/our understanding of belief. We are saved by faith and grace alone. This is true. You are correct with this. But if someone truly believes in this, how will they act once they know the truth of this? They will act in accordance with their belief. So, if someone knew the truth that they deserve an eternal punishment that is absolutely terrible, they would do their best to not go there. They will leave their sin because of a fear from the understanding of the consequences. Proverbs 9:10. Then when they also believe that God sacrificed Himself, within themselves, they would feel anguish and sadness. This is because they can see the great cost that was paid. When they see this great cost, they realise that they cannot just simply continue to do as they did previously because the cost was too high. Thus, you will see repentance in someone who truly believes. So, true belief will have repentance. Repentance is not how we are saved; it is a result of it.

Imagine a 12-year-old child who was swimming in a river went over to a part of the river that he was told not to go to. Then he got caught in a whir pool and was being sucked under. An adult then runs in and manages to get the child out but in the process, the adult is sucked under and drowns. Then the next time the child is at the river, they are told not to go over to that part of the river. But the child, in his foolishness goes over again.
This would be like trampling on the sacrifice of the adult that saved him. (Not sure if I have described it well enough. I know that Living Waters has a really good analogy on this, but they have hundreds of vids and so I could not find it)
A person who truly understands and believes will not continue as they did previously. They will not want to trample on such a great sacrifice.
Hope this helps.

1Tonne said:

This is from the person who started the Salvation Army. General Booth. He said, “The chief danger that confronts the coming century will be religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God, heaven without hell.”
Sadly, it is already being taught, forgiveness without repentance and salvation without regeneration.

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Pastor Bonhoeffer, in Cost of Discipleship, calls this "cheap grace"; a cheapening of grace, treating the grace of God as cheap rather than as costly--costly, because it cost the life of God's own Son; costly because this grace demands our own death, to quote Bonhoeffer, "When Christ calls a man, He bids him, 'Come and die'".

"Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession…. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship

Cheap grace is, in essence, religion without Christ; the doleling out religious sentiment to cater to our own passions and desires (the very passions and desires which, on account of sin, have rendered us estranged from God and in open rebellion to Him). We can see how such cheap grace looks like in different contexts, it can take on the appearance of legalism wherein we set up systems of "holiness" which are entirely self-serving and only embolden the flesh to make us haughty and arrogant; such Paul condemns in Colossians 2 concerning those who said "don't touch, don't taste" etc. We also see it take up the appearance of open lawlessnes, "I am already saved, what do I have to repent of?" Which St. John explicitly condemned in his first epistle, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

When the word is faithfully preached, the Spirit Himself meets us to cut us asunder, for the word of God is a double-edged sword says the author of Hebrews. Through the office of the Church's ministry, "rightfully dividing the word of truth", the Law preached as the Law, the Gospel as the Gospel, we have Christ's promise that the Holy Spirit Himself will convict the world of sin.,

"And when He comes, He will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see Me no longer; concerning judgment because the prince of this world is judged." - John 16:8-11

Through the Law the Spirit shows us the depths of our depravity. Through the Gospel the Spirit grants faith to our hearts, to believe and trust Christ and what He has done.

Where, then, is the philosopher of this age? Paul asks this in 1 Corinthians, "Has God not made foolish this world's wisdom?" Where then can be our boasting, Paul also asks in Romans, "It is excluded".

For there is no sage nor righteous man; there is only the sinner for whom Christ came and gave His life as ransom.

-CryptoLutheran

1Tonne said:

Not 100% sure in your post what you are asking but think I have the right sentence.
It comes down to your/our understanding of belief. We are saved by faith and grace alone. This is true. You are correct with this. But if someone truly believes in this, how will they act once they know the truth of this? They will act in accordance with their belief. So, if someone knew the truth that they deserve an eternal punishment that is absolutely terrible, they would do their best to not go there. They will leave their sin because of a fear from the understanding of the consequences. Proverbs 9:10. Then when they also believe that God sacrificed Himself, within themselves, they would feel anguish and sadness. This is because they can see the great cost that was paid. When they see this great cost, they realise that they cannot just simply continue to do as they did previously because the cost was too high. Thus, you will see repentance in someone who truly believes. So, true belief will have repentance. Repentance is not how we are saved; it is a result of it.

Imagine a 12-year-old child who was swimming in a river went over to a part of the river that he was told not to go to. Then he got caught in a whir pool and was being sucked under. An adult then runs in and manages to get the child out but in the process, the adult is sucked under and drowns. Then the next time the child is at the river, they are told not to go over to that part of the river. But the child, in his foolishness goes over again.
This would be like trampling on the sacrifice of the adult that saved him. (Not sure if I have described it well enough. I know that Living Waters has a really good analogy on this, but they have hundreds of vids and so I could not find it)
A person who truly understands and believes will not continue as they did previously. They will not want to trample on such a great sacrifice.
Hope this helps.

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I understand what you believe 100%, i have been debating this salvation approach since i stated participating on this forum. Plus all the Lordship Salvation people i have encountered elsewhere's. I just do not believe that is the way a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life.


My point was really simple, i will repeat it. People who use Acts 2 and 3 (chapters) for support of their salvation message that states a person must repent to receive salvation.

There is not a single mention in those two chapters and verses that people use to support a person must repent to receive salvation. About believing in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life (salvation).

So people according to people using Acts 2 and 3 a person does not have to believe in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life. They just have to repent of their sins even thought there is no mention at all in Acts 2 and 3 about receiving Eternal Life and what to to. They just add that into the verses.

Acts 2 and 3 talks about people repenting and being saved. Now, any good acts we do, cannot save us. It is by grace we have been saved through faith. That faith is believing in the sacrifice that Jesus did for us and that He took our punishment. So, because we put our faith in the sacrifice of Jesus, we then see what he did for us. When we see this, this creates love within a believer. That love will make a person want to honour God. And through that love, a person will leave their sin. So, the leaving of sin is proof that there was a change within the person's heart. So, God gave them a new heart and a new mind.

I seem to be repeating myself a lot unfortunately.

1Tonne said:

Acts 2 and 3 talks about people repenting and being saved. Now, any good acts we do, cannot save us. It is by grace we have been saved through faith. That faith is believing in the sacrifice that Jesus did for us and that He took our punishment. So, because we put our faith in the sacrifice of Jesus, we then see what he did for us. When we see this, this creates love within a believer. That love will make a person want to honour God. And through that love, a person will leave their sin. So, the leaving of sin is proof that there was a change within the person's heart. So, God gave them a new heart and a new mind.

I seem to be repeating myself a lot unfortunately.

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So you are saying that it does not take faith in Jesus to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation. Because nowhere in Acts 2 and 3 is it stated to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

The Bible is clear on this it is not faith in the sacrifice of Jesus that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life. It is faith in the person Jesus, that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believe in Me has everlasting life.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

I don't know if you read my last post properly.

1Tonne said:

It is by grace we have been saved through faith. That faith is believing in the sacrifice that Jesus did for us and that He took our punishment.

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So, yes, faith in Jesus. By believing in Jesus, you are saved. Such as the thief on the cross. He could not do anything to show his faith as he was nailed to a cross. But Jesus knew his heart from what was said. He believed.
But, when reading the bible, we need to read it in its entirety when possible. Not pick pieces here and there. So, regarding those that believe in Jesus, they will be saved (John 5:24). But because they believe, they will leave their sin (Acts 2 and 3) because they love Him.

I am agreeing with you about believing in Jesus saves you. I just believe we will see a change in someone who have a true belief.

1Tonne said:

I don't know if you read my last post properly.

So, yes, faith in Jesus. By believing in Jesus, you are saved. Such as the thief on the cross. He could not do anything to show his faith as he was nailed to a cross. But Jesus knew his heart from what was said. He believed.
But, when reading the bible, we need to read it in its entirety when possible. Not pick pieces here and there. So, regarding those that believe in Jesus, they will be saved (John 5:24). But because they believe, they will leave their sin (Acts 2 and 3) because they love Him.

I am agreeing with you about believing in Jesus saves you. I just believe we will see a change in someone who have a true belief.

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I know you stated that you have faith in Jesus's sacrifice That faith is believing in the sacrifice that Jesus did for us and that He took our punishment. Jesus's sacrifice was for the whole world believers and unbelievers, it took away the sin of the world.

You seem to be missing that Jesus's sacrifice (death on the cross) is not Jesus. It is something Jesus went through.There is nowhere in The Bible that states that faith in Jesus's s sacrifice gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life.

What Jesus did on the cross and after (the resurrection) should point a person to see that Jesus is who He said He is. The promised Messiah from the prophecies of The Tanakh, The only begotten Son of God. So they can place their faith in Jesus the person.

I use The Gospel of John only, to tell people about how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

To believe that someone did something (die on a cross) must mean you believe in the person. For a person to make an action, they have to be real. I believe in Jesus, and I believe He died on the cross for me. I have faith that because of His sacrifice and that I believe, that my sins have been washed away.
I could say that you believe in Jesus, but you have not put your faith in His sacrifice. That is why He died for us.
Even the Romans believed in Jesus. Even many atheists believe in Jesus but they don't believe he died and rose again.

Here is a good verse about belief and leaving your sin
"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” John 3:36

1Tonne said:

To believe that someone did something (die on a cross) must mean you believe in the person. For a person to make an action, they have to be real. I believe in Jesus, and I believe He died on the cross for me. I have faith that because of His sacrifice and that I believe, that my sins have been washed away.
I could say that you believe in Jesus, but you have not put your faith in His sacrifice. That is why He died for us.
Even the Romans believed in Jesus. Even many atheists believe in Jesus but they don't believe he died and rose again.

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Not necessarily, most all people (people who identify as christian) believe Jesus died on the cross for their sins. But how many of these people have believed in Jesus for Eternal Life.

I have not put may faith in Jesus sacrifice, nowhere in The Bible does it say to put your faith in Jesus sacrifice.
I believe Jesus died on the cross and rose three days later and that accomplishment took away the sin of the world.

Many people believe in Jesus but those same people are not believing in Jesus for Eternal Life

1Tonne said:

Here is a good verse about belief and leaving your sin
"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” John 3:36

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The world obey in other verse translations of John 3:36 states but the one who does not believe the Son will not see life.

NKJV
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Strong's Concordance
apeitheó: to disobey
Original Word: ἀπειθέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apeitheó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i-theh'-o)
Definition: to disobey
Usage: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity.

apeithéō – literally, refuse to be persuaded (by the Lord). See 543 (apeitheia).

d taylor said:

The world obey in other verse translations of John 3:36 states but the one who does not believe the Son will not see life.

NKJV
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Strong's Concordance
apeitheó: to disobey
Original Word: ἀπειθέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apeitheó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i-theh'-o)
Definition: to disobey
Usage: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity.

apeithéō – literally, refuse to be persuaded (by the Lord). See 543 (apeitheia).

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The word "not believe" (apeitheó) is synonymous with disobedience. They can interchange. Likewise, "belief" being synonymous with "obedience".
That is what I have been trying to say. If you believe, then because you believe you will obey.

I enjoy this conversation, but we are going round in circles.

To address the original question, the answer is a resounding yes. There are innumerable multitudes of folks who obey various Christian and Jewish commandments who are not partakers of salvation and never can be - if salvation entails faith in Jesus Christ.

1Tonne said:

The word "not believe" (apeitheó) is synonymous with disobedience. They can interchange. Likewise, "belief" being synonymous with "obedience".
That is what I have been trying to say. If you believe, then because you believe you will obey.

I enjoy this conversation, but we are going round in circles.

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I understand that you believe that belief/faith is defined as obedience. And that is how you can say that a person must do this and that and that and that for salvation.

I do not believe that is how The Bible defines belief/faith in Jesus. Belief and how it is used in The Bible is that a person has been fully persuaded, convinced by the testimony of facts given in The Bible about Jesus, that this testimony is true. This includes how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

d taylor said:

I understand that you believe that belief/faith is defined as obedience. And that is how you can say that a person must do this and that and that and that for salvation.

I do not believe that is how The Bible defines belief/faith in Jesus. Belief and how it is used in The Bible is that a person has been fully persuaded, convinced by the testimony of facts given in The Bible about Jesus, that this testimony is true. This includes how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

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No. Faith /belief is just that. Belief. Belief is not defined as obedience. Obedience is a fruit of belief.

1Tonne said:

No. Faith /belief is just that. Belief. Belief is not defined as obedience. Obedience is a fruit of belief.

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I am only going by what you write and you wrote "belief" being synonymous with "obedience".

synonym
one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses
synonymous
having the same connotations, implications, or reference

d taylor said:

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I am only going by what you write and you wrote "belief" being synonymous with "obedience".

synonym
one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses
synonymous
having the same connotations, implications, or reference

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So, what do you think about all that multitude of folks who implicitly obey without having any faith whatsoever in Jesus Christ?

bbbbbbb said:

So, what do you think about all that multitude of folks who implicitly obey without having any faith whatsoever in Jesus Christ?

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Well looks like they are obeying ideas (a theology) they have created from The Bible.