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saints of this and that (moved from GT)

tadoflamb

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Now, that I've opened my heart to you all and shared many of my experiences, I'm guessing many think I'm crazy or making things up. Anyhow, I am only honest in what I think and feel. I will bow out now. Anyway, I need a break. I have a headache staring at this computer screen for so long. :wave:

Dorothea,

I think you're a lot like me, in that after all the arguments have been made about praying to the Saints, those who oppose our practice still have a lot of work to do explaining away exactly what happens when one does petition that 'great cloud of witnesses'. For me, I wouldn't even claim the Christian faith if not for our intercessions of the Blessed Virgin Mary, not to mention the other minor miracles which occurred when I implored her help. More recently, I've come under the auspices of St. Joseph the Worker. I've got some stories to tell, and I won't share them here, but again, my detractors are going to have to explain away same amazing coincedences, and like you, I don't believe in coincedences. I believe in the Communion of Saints. :crossrc:

Peace be with you,

Tad
 
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Dorothea

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Dorothea,

I think you're a lot like me, in that after all the arguments have been made about praying to the Saints, those who oppose our practice still have a lot of work to do explaining away exactly what happens when one does petition that 'great cloud of witnesses'. For me, I wouldn't even claim the Christian faith if not for our intercessions of the Blessed Virgin Mary, not to mention the other minor miracles which occurred when I implored her help. More recently, I've come under the auspices of St. Joseph the Worker. I've got some stories to tell, and I won't share them here, but again, my detractors are going to have to explain away same amazing coincedences, and like you, I don't believe in coincedences. I believe in the Communion of Saints. :crossrc:

Peace be with you,

Tad
That was beautiful. Thanks, tad. :hug:

Peace be with you as well. :)
 
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Tzaousios

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CaliforniaJosiah

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Josiah said:
Not that it would change anything, but just for my own edification, would you please give some examples of those in the First Century who prayed to someone they taught to be in heaven with something they wanted them to pass on to God, clearly with the belief that they would pass it on? Just some examples from then might help. Thanks. Perhaps you'll also give some first century examples of how Christians embraced that saints were designated to certain professions (Saint of Miners, for example) - the issue of this thread. Thanks so much!

It's probably in there right about the same place where you see them practicing artificial birth control.

Could be.... If you'd like, you can give a few quotes from those in the first century about that, too.



Fair enuf?
wink.gif



.
 
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Lion King

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No



No, they searched what he was saying



Sometimes not always. In fact when He ask His Apostles and Pope Peter affirmed that He was the Christ, Christ response was man did not reveal that to him. Christ never used sola scriptura



Don't need to the Apostles went outside of Scripture and many Protestants today would decry them because they wouldn't use Scripture as their authority


I don't really know what to say...

If you think the apostles went outside of Scripture, then you really do not understand the Father's teachings.:wave:
 
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Stryder06

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I don't want to argue law either... just pointing out, the Apostles considered it 'troubling and soul-subverting' to command Christians to keep the law.

And I'll just point out that unless you think they thought it was "troubling and soul-subverting" to keep the law you are confused. The rules they extended to the gentiles were from the law. Look it up.
 
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Stryder06

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Does the fact that some have easier or less sinful lives than others not demonstrate this?
No it doesn't. You can't read the heart of a man and you have no way of knowing if their lives are less sinful. Fact is the closer you grow to Christ the more trouble you will have. So if you're cruising down easy street then you're doing something wrong.

Do you know what prayer is always answered? "Not as I will, but as you will..."

Indeed. Do you know what His will is?
 
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Stryder06

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It's not that their prayers have a better chance than mine of reaching God. It's that their prayers are effective because of their righteousness.

See this is where we have a problem. True that the scriptures say that the fervent prayers of the righteous availeth much. This however is not saying that their righteousness is their own. It's Christ's righteousness in them (the petitioner) that allows their prayers to move the hand of God. Their faith in God, which needs only to be the size of a mustard seed, which is unwavering, is what gets God's attention, so to speak.

When you say "their prayers are effective because of their righteousness" it sounds to me like you believe that the saints have their own righteousness which was gained throughout their lives.
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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Elizabethinhatcropped.jpg

MOD HAT ON

This thread has been moved from GT by consensus of staff. Please continue. :)

MOD HAT OFF
 
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Stryder06

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Stryder, I get passionate about things. Please forgive me. I want to share with you a personal experience. Back in my early to mid 20's, I was a non practicing Christian and I consulted psychics, read horoscopes, and dream dictionaries. When my parents and I decided to start attending church, we went together, and the first Divine Liturgy - the sermon the priest gave was about psychics, reading palms, etc. He said you can't serve 2 masters. Going to these people to seek my future was serving the enemy, not God. So the Orthodox Church is quite adamant about being against such practices. So I quit right when I got home. Threw all the books and crud right into the garbage.
That's great. I'm glad you were able to learn that through your church. Let me just be clear that I don't doubt for a single minute that your heart doesn't burn with a passion to serve the Lord. I do fear however that you may trust to your traditions at the expense of the scriptures. This is why I've been sticking to the whole "Dead know not anything" stance. If scripture does not go contrary to itself, then any attempt to explain that phrase away is an attempt to cause the scriptures to discredit themselves. That I cannot do.

Christ transformed death into an entrance onto eternal life.
When?

Ps: sorry for the strange post. I'm on my phone.
No problem. I didn't think it was strange at all.
 
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Dorothea

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See this is where we have a problem. True that the scriptures say that the fervent prayers of the righteous availeth much. This however is not saying that their righteousness is their own. It's Christ's righteousness in them (the petitioner) that allows their prayers to move the hand of God. Their faith in God, which needs only to be the size of a mustard seed, which is unwavering, is what gets God's attention, so to speak.

When you say "their prayers are effective because of their righteousness" it sounds to me like you believe that the saints have their own righteousness which was gained throughout their lives.
Ah, I see what you're saying. I'm sorry my communication showed that I thought that the saints were righteous in themselves. We are nothing without God. So the righteousness is the Spirit dwelling inside of them. These people were obedient to God, followed His Commandments, did His Will, and grew in Him, and are in perfect union with Him in heaven, you see? So through God, they are righteous. Through God, we are One Body. Through God, their prayers are effective and righteous. I hope that helps. :)
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Through God, their prayers are effective and righteous. I hope that helps. :)


IF they pray (and I've not seen a shred of ANYTHING that indicates that), the issue here is altogether different: Do they specifically HEAR the prayers of the 2 billion Christians still on earth (including those not verbalized) and do they ERGO specifically and particularly "pass on" those specific petitions to the Father. To date, you've not offered ANYTHING that remotely so indicates.

And I'm still not understanding how that has to do with specific saints being particularly associated with certain professions, etc. - how it is that the Saints praying to God I win a Corvette has to do with St. Anne being the Saint of Miners, for example. I'm just not following your attempt to "connect the dots" there.


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
 
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Stryder06

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Ah, I see what you're saying. I'm sorry my communication showed that I thought that the saints were righteous in themselves. We are nothing without God. So the righteousness is the Spirit dwelling inside of them. These people were obedient to God, followed His Commandments, did His Will, and grew in Him, and are in perfect union with Him in heaven, you see? So through God, they are righteous. Through God, we are One Body. Through God, their prayers are effective and righteous. I hope that helps. :)

Thanks for the explanation. We still have that pesky overall problem though about them actually being in heaven :p

If they don't have bodies then how do they pray? With what voice do they speak? With what ears do they hear?
 
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Dorothea

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That's great. I'm glad you were able to learn that through your church. Let me just be clear that I don't doubt for a single minute that your heart doesn't burn with a passion to serve the Lord. I do fear however that you may trust to your traditions at the expense of the scriptures. This is why I've been sticking to the whole "Dead know not anything" stance. If scripture does not go contrary to itself, then any attempt to explain that phrase away is an attempt to cause the scriptures to discredit themselves. That I cannot do.
Thanks for your concern. I appreciate it. :hug: The Scriptures are part of the Church. The Church is the Body and Bride of Christ. Christ is the Head. What we believe comes from Him and our understanding of who He is and what He revealed to us, and that most certainly includes first and foremost the Holy Scriptures. What we believe is what was taught to us by the Apostles, and what their disciples and the disciples of those disciples translated and interpreted the Words of God and the Apostles to mean. It's really what it's about. The CF's interpretations and people's interpretations, whether they understood from what their teachers/elders in their traditions taught them verses in the bible meant, or they came about it on their own.

We believe in the Body of Christ not being broken, not even separating us from God in our physical deaths. So when we read praying for each other, it encompasses all and is in the communion of the saints as a whole.

Others will interpret this to mean as some have said here, only those on earth. We obviously disagree because of the CF's interpretation of no division in His Body, the Body being One, undivided, the praying for one another, the visions of the Elders with the prayers of those on earth in the bowls of incense, which always have represented our prayers going to heaven (that shows in Revelation). We did not just make up what we believe. The liturgy came about from what was taught in Exodus and mostly resembles what was explained in Isaiah and Revelation. When we are worshiping God, we are in the presence of the Trinity, the angels, and all the saints on this earth and in heaven. For about an hour and a half each Sunday, we are in heaven with God.

So, I do understand your concern and your perspective. What I would like is for you and others to understand ours. That we do not make up things. We do not just do things out of the blue. We follow what was taught and our interpretations of what the Bible OT and NT means obviously is different than some others. This does not mean we follow traditions of men, but rather we follow Apostolic Tradition - Holy Tradition - and follow what the Bible says fully. It just looks and seems different to those who may not understand or comprehend our ancient understanding and perspective.


When He died on the Cross for us and broke the chains of hades, and opened the tombs of those waiting there for Him. Death no longer held us captive. We are no longer separated from Christ. This is why St. Paul says neither death, nor.... and all the other things he mentioned, can separate us from Him.


No problem. I didn't think it was strange at all.
Well, I guess you missed the part where I accidentally hit "send" before I was ready and had half a paragraph written and had to go back and add the rest. Well, that's good. :D
 
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Dorothea

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Thanks for the explanation. We still have that pesky overall problem though about them actually being in heaven :p

If they don't have bodies then how do they pray? With what voice do they speak? With what ears do they hear?
^_^ I don't think you need a physical mouth to speak or physical ears to hear once you leave physically this life. The spirit in us is life, and how those under the altar and the elders do things is through God. They are clothed in Him, in His presence. They are in union with Him and so why think they cannot talk or hear or move or pass incense bowls around. ;) They do, is my belief. :)
 
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Dorothea

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IF they pray (and I've not seen a shred of ANYTHING that indicates that), the issue here is altogether different: Do they specifically HEAR the prayers of the 2 billion Christians still on earth (including those not verbalized) and do they ERGO specifically and particularly "pass on" those specific petitions to the Father. To date, you've not offered ANYTHING that remotely so indicates.

And I'm still not understanding how that has to do with specific saints being particularly associated with certain professions, etc. - how it is that the Saints praying to God I win a Corvette has to do with St. Anne being the Saint of Miners, for example. I'm just not following your attempt to "connect the dots" there.


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
Revelation shows they do know what's going on and hear us and pray for us.

As far as the saints for specific things, I have no clue how that came about. I'd have to do some research when I have time, CJ, which I'd be happy to do later on because I love to learn more about my faith. Every time I get involved in these types of threads, I learn more and more about what my Church teaches, and it confirms and comforts me in all of it coming together as it does. I grow closer to Him in doing so, so thank you and others who have asked questions and had me do my homework. I've learned lots the past few years I've been here. :)
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Revelation shows they do know what's going on and hear us and pray for us.

Could you quote those? I haven't seen anything (in this thread or in all my years in Catholicism) that remotely so indicated, so I don't know what verses you have in mind.

But again, praying FOR us is unrelated to the issue of passing on our petitions. Again, that my grandfather or great uncle MIGHT be praying for me is a nice thought (I don't think very controversal) but that's entirely, completely unrelated to my asking Grandpa to pray to God that I win a Corvette and ERGO he passes that on to the Father (perhaps with more force than any earthly believer could), THAT'S the point here. AND the connection of that to the whole point here: that this means at St. Anne is the Saint of Miners, for example - miners should pray to St. Anne when they need a raise or protection on the job because she, especially, will pass on every specific petition to the Father and is more likely to be heard and answered than if that miner prayed. THAT'S the discussion here.




As far as the saints for specific things, I have no clue how that came about. I'd have to do some research when I have time, CJ, which I'd be happy to do later on .

Thank you very much. That IS the issue before us, and the issue of specific saints for specific people and petitions.






.
 
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Dorothea

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Could you quote those? I haven't seen anything (in this thread or in all my years in Catholicism) that remotely so indicated, so I don't know what verses you have in mind.

Rev. 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

OSB footnotes:

Rev. 5:8: The four angelic beings, the four living creatures, and the glorified saints of all ages represented by the twenty-four elders worship Jesus, thus recognizing His deity, by elevated thanksgiving (each having a harp). And by elevated prayer (golden bowls full of incense), they present to God the prayers of the saints still on earth, manifested in the incense (8:3, 4; see Ps 140:2; Tb 12:15). In the ancient world, incense was used in both secular and liturgical life. God, people, and objects were censed as a sign of honor and dedication. And in the services of the Church, incense is also a symbol of prayer.

Psalm 140: Let my prayer set forth before You as incense.

Tobit 12:15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who report the prayers of the saints and who enter before the glory of the Holy One.
 
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M

MetanoiaHeart

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Revelation shows they do know what's going on and hear us and pray for us.

As far as the saints for specific things, I have no clue how that came about. I'd have to do some research when I have time, CJ, which I'd be happy to do later on because I love to learn more about my faith. Every time I get involved in these types of threads, I learn more and more about what my Church teaches, and it confirms and comforts me in all of it coming together as it does. I grow closer to Him in doing so, so thank you and others who have asked questions and had me do my homework. I've learned lots the past few years I've been here. :)

I know I'm new to this forum, but I've been involved with some others in the past, and I feel the same way. I was just thinking about this thread yesterday and thanking God for it because I have a new understanding about our faith that I very much needed to learn at this time. The thread is one of several things pertaining to the Saints that have occurred in my life in the last few weeks that I know are not just "coincidences", and my faith is growing because of what has happened.
 
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Dorothea

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I know I'm new to this forum, but I've been involved with some others in the past, and I feel the same way. I was just thinking about this thread yesterday and thanking God for it because I have a new understanding about our faith that I very much needed to learn at this time. The thread is one of several things pertaining to the Saints that have occurred in my life in the last few weeks that I know are not just "coincidences", and my faith is growing because of what has happened.
Glory to God in the highest! :bow: :clap:
 
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