saints of this and that (moved from GT)

[Incariol]

So am I to disregard the scriptures in Thessalonians regarding the resurrection? Since the saints are already in heaven, or anyone for that matter - What need is there of a resurrection?

Their bodies, my dear, their bodies.

Or the scripture in Ecclesiastes that are very clear concerning the state of the dead?

Ecclesiastes: the dead know not any thing, that their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing under the sun and "for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Are we to let traditions of men take precident over clear scripture?

Yes, when you inappropriately quote Scripture that is talking about the dead before Christ destroyed death....

‪New Orthodox Christian martyrs of Soviet persecutions of the Church in 1918 - 1939 †‬‏ - YouTube

 

[Stryder06]

I would like to add a question for you, as well as daydreamer, if you don't mind, Stryder, luv.

Can you tell me why first and second century Christians were asking the prayers of those departed martyred Christian saints if it was not taught to do so? Why and how did they learn to do this? Where did they learn this from?

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock (Acts 20:29).

Please hear me on this for I am not trying to accuse you or anyone else of anything. The pagan practice of praying to multiple gods goes back to the days of Abraham. I remember being in B&N bookstore and seeing a book that compared every saint to a pagan god, and showed how prayers offered to them were essentially the same. This book was authored by a man who titled himself as a Reverend.

I guess a better question is why would pray to dead saints if Isa 8:19 says the following: When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

 

[Stryder06]

Their bodies, my dear, their bodies.

We're all getting new bodies when Christ returns. Why wouldn't God just give them new bodies once they got to heaven?

 

[Incariol]

We're all getting new bodies when Christ returns. Why wouldn't God just give them new bodies once they got to heaven?

Because we won't receive new bodies.

 

[Dorothea]

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock (Acts 20:29).

Please hear me on this for I am not trying to accuse you or anyone else of anything. The pagan practice of praying to multiple gods goes back to the days of Abraham. I remember being in B&N bookstore and seeing a book that compared every saint to a pagan god, and showed how prayers offered to them were essentially the same. This book was authored by a man who titled himself as a Reverend.

I guess a better question is why would pray to dead saints if Isa 8:19 says the following: When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

Because we are Christians who believe in God and that we are all alive in Christ and connected through the Spirit. Because we are not pagans or psychics, witches, wizards, or whatever.

There is a difference between asking those in Christ to pray for you and to "consult" a medium - do a seance, ask a psychic for the future, having somebody reading your palm. We do not serve two masters but one! Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!!!

Praying for each other is very much a Christian practice and has been since the beginning. Pagans and what they do in worshiping their made-up gods and those who worship inanimate objects has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Christian practice of prayer. Why in the world would you mix the two? They are like night and day. Totally different.

PS: as far as the wolves go, there were always be some people who are not really a part of the Church. Sure, but to suggest that as soon as an Apostle died, these wolves decided to come in, as if to say, "Good, now that the Apostles are out of the way, I can teach some crazy, false practice for the Christians to follow." This makes absolutely no sense. The praxis of the early Christians were taught to them by the elders of their churches, and those elders knew the Apostles and learned from them personally.

 

[Dorothea]

We're all getting new bodies when Christ returns. Why wouldn't God just give them new bodies once they got to heaven?

because we are not getting "new" bodies... - the ones we were born with will be transformed and glorified.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

I understand what you mean by the deceased Christians being in Christ. What I don't understand is the connection of being a deceased Christian and having the ability to hear the prayers of those who are on earth and being able to intercede for them.

I don't know where you are connecting the idea that a deceased Christian has the ability to not only hear what is being said on earth, but being able to pray for them.

Im a former Lutheran so asking the saints for their prayers didnt come easy for me. I dont think we can know the mechanics of how saints hear our prayers. However, my own belief is that because we are all of one church, even though it might be church militant and triumphant, it is through Christ that because we're all praying for each other in this life, why would it stop in the after-life. Hebrews 12:1 "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, ..." is where I believe that the saints are cheering us on in our race of life. If they surround us, and we are all united through Christ, how could they NOT hear our prayers?

Brian

 

[Stryder06]

because we are not getting "new" bodies... - the ones we were born with will be transformed and glorified.

Sounds new to me

 

[LinuxUser]

It should be noted that the first council went against Scripture (OT at the time) when they decided no more circumcision, circumcision was mandated in the OT. So they never used Scripture alone. If they did we would have to circumcise today

 

[Stryder06]

Because we are Christians who believe in God and that we are all alive in Christ and connected through the Spirit. Because we are not pagans or psychics, witches, wizards, or whatever.

There is a difference between asking those in Christ to pray for you and to "consult" a medium - do a seance, ask a psychic for the future, having somebody reading your palm. We do not serve two masters but one! Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!!!

Praying for each other is very much a Christian practice and has been since the beginning. Pagans and what they do in worshiping their made-up gods and those who worship inanimate objects has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Christian practice of prayer. Why in the world would you mix the two? They are like night and day. Totally different.

PS: as far as the wolves go, there were always be some people who are not really a part of the Church. Sure, but to suggest that as soon as an Apostle died, these wolves decided to come in, as if to say, "Good, now that the Apostles are out of the way, I can teach some crazy, false practice for the Christians to follow." This makes absolutely no sense. The praxis of the early Christians were taught to them by the elders of their churches, and those elders knew the Apostles and learned from them personally.

Well I am not against Christians praying for each other. But I guess what gets me is that it seems like you're (and I use that in general, I don't mean you particularly) are putting your faith in that saint. It's like, your prayers are said to the saint, asking them to pray for you because it's like they have a better chance of having their prayers heard then you do.

But we still have the problem of actually establishing that you have an immortal soul. I guess that's where I keep getting caught up.

 

[ivebeenshown]

It should be noted that the first council went against Scripture (OT at the time) when they decided no more circumcision, circumcision was mandated in the OT. So they never used Scripture alone. If they did we would have to circumcise today

And not only did they declare Mosaic law to not apply to Christians... but they set forth new ordinances with all authority. "Whatever you bind..."

 

[ivebeenshown]

Well I am not against Christians praying for each other. But I guess what gets me is that it seems like you're (and I use that in general, I don't mean you particularly) are putting your faith in that saint. It's like, your prayers are said to the saint, asking them to pray for you because it's like they have a better chance of having their prayers heard then you do.

And why would that saint even have more efficacious prayer? Due to the grace of the one and only God, of course.

But we still have the problem of actually establishing that you have an immortal soul. I guess that's where I keep getting caught up.

We don't. You do.

 

[Stryder06]

It should be noted that the first council went against Scripture (OT at the time) when they decided no more circumcision, circumcision was mandated in the OT. So they never used Scripture alone. If they did we would have to circumcise today

They didn't go against the OT. Circumcision was for a time, just like the sacrifices were for a time. That is what the whole thing was with Paul and his sermons against the Jews trying to convert the gentiles through means of circumcision. That was done away with.

 

[LinuxUser]

They didn't go against the OT. Circumcision was for a time, just like the sacrifices were for a time. That is what the whole thing was with Paul and his sermons against the Jews trying to convert the gentiles through means of circumcision. That was done away with.

How ever you may want to spin it, they did very much go against Scripture. The Apostles setup new rules and doctrines and that was why the council ultimately was setup to see who has Authority and the consensus was not Scripture alone.

The law was in Scripture and they were saying that no longer is the law alone the Authority

 

[ivebeenshown]

They didn't go against the OT. Circumcision was for a time, just like the sacrifices were for a time. That is what the whole thing was with Paul and his sermons against the Jews trying to convert the gentiles through means of circumcision. That was done away with.

It was not only circumcision, but 'the law' as a whole.

Acts 15
24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

 

[Stryder06]

And why would that saint even have more efficacious prayer? Due to the grace of the one and only God, of course.

Where exactly does God say He gives more grace to some then others? And how exactly does anyone amass enough grace to have a better shot at getting their prayers answered?

We don't. You do.

Believe me, I'm straight.

 

[Dorothea]

Stryder, I get passionate about things. Please forgive me. I want to share with you a personal experience. Back in my early to mid 20's, I was a non practicing Christian and I consulted psychics, read horoscopes, and dream dictionaries. When my parents and I decided to start attending church, we went together, and the first Divine Liturgy - the sermon the priest gave was about psychics, reading palms, etc. He said you can't serve 2 masters. Going to these people to seek my future was serving the enemy, not God. So the Orthodox Church is quite adamant about being against such practices. So I quit right when I got home. Threw all the books and crud right into the garbage.

Christ transformed death into an entrance onto eternal life.

Ps: sorry for the strange post. I'm on my phone.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Where exactly does God say He gives more grace to some then others?

Does the fact that some have easier or less sinful lives than others not demonstrate this?

And how exactly does anyone amass enough grace to have a better shot at getting their prayers answered?

Do you know what prayer is always answered? "Not as I will, but as you will..."

 

[Stryder06]

It was not only circumcision, but 'the law' as a whole.

Acts 15
24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

OK, well I'm not arguing law. I've taken a sabbatical from doing that.

 

[Stryder06]

How ever you may want to spin it, they did very much go against Scripture. The Apostles setup new rules and doctrines and that was why the council ultimately was setup to see who has Authority and the consensus was not Scripture alone.

The law was in Scripture and they were saying that no longer is the law alone the Authority

If you think they went against scripture then there's not much I can say to you.