saints of this and that (moved from GT)

[ivebeenshown]

OK, well I'm not arguing law. I've taken a sabbatical from doing that.

I don't want to argue law either... just pointing out, the Apostles considered it 'troubling and soul-subverting' to command Christians to keep the law.

 

[SharonL]

What I don't understand is that God is the only all knowing, all seeing, all present - when you pray to Saints - what happens if they are listening to someone else - they can't hear your prayers - they are not all knowing, all seeing, all present.

The Bible also says that all God's children are saints.

 

[ivebeenshown]

What I don't understand is that God is the only all knowing, all seeing, all present - when you pray to Saints - what happens if they are listening to someone else - they can't hear your prayers - they are not all knowing, all seeing, all present.

The Saints in heaven are not bound by the physics of earth...

The Bible also says that all God's children are saints.

Sure... but what is usually meant by "Saint" is one who has completed the process of sanctification.

 

[MetanoiaHeart]

I would like to add a question for you, as well as daydreamer, if you don't mind, Stryder, luv.

Can you tell me why first and second century Christians were asking the prayers of those departed martyred Christian saints if it was not taught to do so? Why and how did they learn to do this? Where did they learn this from?

I'd like to hear any other answers to these questions. If Intercession of the Saints was something not passed down from the Apostles' time, then when did it start? And if it was wrong to do, what is the earliest evidence that people disagreed with it?

And if no one disagreed with it early on, why not? It seems that something as serious as "grievous wolves" encouraging the faithful to pray to pagan gods (sorry, can't remember who alluded to this upthread) would not have gone unnoticed or unchallenged when it started.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

I would like to add a question for you, as well as daydreamer, if you don't mind, Stryder, luv.

Can you tell me why first and second century Christians were asking the prayers of those departed martyred Christian saints if it was not taught to do so? Why and how did they learn to do this? Where did they learn this from?

Are not those we read of in the New Testament, the 1st generation Christian? Do we read about them asking prayers of those "departed martyred Christian saints"? Does Scripture even attest to such a thing as being done? I mean it tells us that some were baptizing themselves for the dead and Paul wrote to them about that.....but no, silence when it comes to speaking to the dead about praying for them to God.

We say, well tradition teaches this and that happened. But really, is that what tradition taught that the Apostles did? Was that God breathed? We know the testaments are true of the Scriptures because they are backed up by God inspiring them to write, but what authority do we have to say that the traditions of man is also true? You say "well that's how it has always been done in the 1st century church" but we have the writings of what was being done in the first generation church, and what you speak of, is silent on the matter.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Are not those we read of in the New Testament, the 1st generation Christian? Do we read about them asking prayers of those "departed martyred Christian saints"? Does Scripture even attest to such a thing as being done? I mean it tells us that some were baptizing themselves for the dead and Paul wrote to them about that.....but no, silence when it comes to speaking to the dead about praying for them to God.

We say, well tradition teaches this and that happened. But really, is that what tradition taught that the Apostles did? Was that God breathed? We know the testaments are true of the Scriptures because they are backed up by God inspiring them to write, but what authority do we have to say that the traditions of man is also true? You say "well that's how it has always been done in the 1st century church" but we have the writings of what was being done in the first generation church, and what you speak of, is silent on the matter.

Tradition teaches what the canon of Scripture is and is not. In fact, Paul called the CHURCH the pillar and foundation of truth -- not the bible, although the Church naturally includes the Scriptures (as well as Tradition.)

 

[Dorothea]

Well I am not against Christians praying for each other. But I guess what gets me is that it seems like you're (and I use that in general, I don't mean you particularly) are putting your faith in that saint. It's like, your prayers are said to the saint, asking them to pray for you because it's like they have a better chance of having their prayers heard then you do.

I can totally understand your feeling this way and seeing it this way. Having just started asking the saints in His presence in heaven to pray for my son and my family in 2008, I didn't really understand any of that before then. But the difference for me was that I didn't have something against it or thought it was wrong. I just didn't think I needed to and didn't know how to ask them. Then, one evening in utter emotional distress for my son, after praying to God, I did ask three Saints for their prayers. I know the effects and experience I had that followed. I only wished I'd done so years and years ago.

It's not that their prayers have a better chance than mine of reaching God. It's that their prayers are effective because of their righteousness. The prayers of my friends and family on earth are effective as well. It has to do with the prayers of the known righteous praying for me who've finished the race and are in His presence, along with the prayers of my family and friends, and my own. We are all together praying to our Lord. The saints in heaven are part of my family, just as my family on earth. This is who they are to me. So their prayers are special to me just as my own family's prayers are.

I do think it is hard to understand when one just explains these things. It's one that has to be experienced. Just like explaining any prayer. One doesn't know what prayer is like and how it benefits our souls until we do so.

But we still have the problem of actually establishing that you have an immortal soul. I guess that's where I keep getting caught up.

Yes, I know and understand what you're saying. Unlike others who don't understand where we're coming from, I can understand your perspective.

 

[Dorothea]

Sounds new to me

 

[Dorothea]

Stryder, I get passionate about things. Please forgive me. I want to share with you a personal experience. Back in my early to mid 20's, I was a non practicing Christian and I consulted psychics, read horoscopes, and dream dictionaries. When my parents and I decided to start attending church, we went together, and the first Divine Liturgy - the sermon the priest gave was about psychics, reading palms, etc. He said you can't serve 2 masters. Going to these people to seek my future was serving the enemy, not God. So the Orthodox Church is quite adamant about being against such practices. So I quit right when I got home. Threw all the books and crud right into the garbage.

Christ transformed death into an entrance onto eternal life.

Ps: sorry for the strange post. I'm on my phone.

And btw, I contribute that to the work of the Holy Spirit that guided me back to church and to attend the liturgy where that exact and specific homily (sermon) was given.....no accient, no coincidence. I don't believe in them. See, baptism as a baby is effective. We are protected growing up and guided even if we don't know it until later on. Obviously, my experiences are a bit different than those who were baptized and raised in the faith.

 

[bbbbbbb]

OK, well I'm not arguing law. I've taken a sabbatical from doing that.

Is this a true sabbatical (a complete year of rest occuring every seventh year)?

 

[bbbbbbb]

One of the several difficulties with the doctrine of Saints is the dichotomy of where prayers are actually heard and understood by the Saints. The traditional school of thought was that the Saint heard prayers only at his holy site which was sometimes the place where he or she was martyred or some other notable event of his or her life occured. Thus, there has developed a whole system of pilgrimages to these sites in the expectation that one's prayers will be answered at these locations by the Saint.

Given the fact that not everyone is able to make a pilgrimage, the doctrine shifted to having the Saint answer prayers at sanctified altars usually containing a bit of his or her body which signified that they were somehow tied to that altar and would hear and answer prayers. There then arose the whole system of relic and reliquaries, some of which are really not for the squeamish.

Nowadays, the Saint is view somewhat as a demigod, being everywhere at the same time and hearing everyone's prayer to him or her simultaneously. Thus, a person can pray to the Saint while munching on his or her cereal at the breakfast table. That certainly saves the trouble of making a pilgrimage or even going to the nearest church with an altar or icon dedicated to the Saint

 

[Dorothea]

Are not those we read of in the New Testament, the 1st generation Christian? Do we read about them asking prayers of those "departed martyred Christian saints"? Does Scripture even attest to such a thing as being done? I mean it tells us that some were baptizing themselves for the dead and Paul wrote to them about that.....but no, silence when it comes to speaking to the dead about praying for them to God.

Sure, I would agree that the Apostles and those in the Bible are part of the first century Christians, and that also they were all part of the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church created at Pentecost.

We have eye witness reports - writings - of those asking the martyrs and Apostles to pray for them.

Here's some info on the ancient church's understanding of the Saints:

It must be stated at the beginning that the only true "saint" or holy one (Hagios) is God Himself. The Bible states "For I am the Lord your God; you shall name yourselves holy and keep yourselves holy, because I am holy ... " (Levit. 11:44; 19:2 and 20:7). Man becomes holy and "sainted" by participation in the holiness of God.

Holiness or sainthood is a gift (charisma) given by God to man, through the Holy Spirit. Man's effort to become a participant in the life of divine holiness is indispensable, but sanctification itself is the work of the Holy Trinity, especially through the sanctifying power of Jesus Christ, who was incarnate, suffered crucifixion, and rose from the dead, in order to lead us to the life of holiness, through the communion with the Holy Spirit. In the Second Letter to the Thessalonians St. Paul suggests: "But we are bound to thank God always for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because from the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit that consecrates you, (en agiasmo Pneumatos) and in the truth that you believe. It was for this that He called you through the Gospel we brought, so that you might possess for your own the splendor of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2: 13–14).

CATEGORIES OF SAINTS

Through the work of the Holy Trinity all Christians could be called saints; especially in the early Church as long as they were baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity, they received the Seal of the Spirit in chrismation and frequently participated in the Eucharist. In the same spirit St. Paul, when writing to the Churches he had visited, calls all the faithful "saints." Writing to the Ephesians, he addresses "the saints who live in Ephesus" (1:1); writing to the Corinthians he uses the same expressions (2 Cor. 1:11). St. Basil, commenting on this point, writes that Paul refers to all those who are united with God, who is the Being, the Life and the Truth (Against Eunomius, II, 19). Furthermore, St. Paul writes to the Colossians that God has reconciled men by Christ's death, "so that He may present you before Himself holy, without blemish and innocent in His sight" (1:22).

In our society, however, who can be addressed as a saint? Who are those men and women and children who may be called saints by the Church today? Many Orthodox theologians classify the saints in six categories:

The Apostles, who were the first ones to spread the message of the Incarnation of the Word of God and of salvation through Christ.

The Prophets, because they predicted and prophesied the coming of the Messiah.

The Martyrs, for sacrificing their lives and fearlessly confessing Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind.

The Fathers and Hierarchs of the Church, who excelled in explaining and in defending, by word and deed, the Christian faith.

The Monastics, who lived in the desert and dedicated themselves to spiritual exercise (askesis), reaching, as far as possible, perfection in Christ.

The Just, those who lived in the world, leading exemplary lives as clergy or laity with their families, becoming examples for imitation in society.
Each and every one among all these saints has his or her own calling and characteristics: they all fought the "good fight for the faith" (1 Tim. 6:12 and 2 Tim. 4:7). All of them applied in their lives the scriptural virtues of "justice, piety, fidelity, love, fortitude, and gentleness" (1 Tim. 6:11).

THE CONCEPT OF THEOSIS

The ultimate goal of the saint is to imitate God and live the life of deification (theosis). St. Maximos the Confessor (seventh century) writes that the saints are men who have reached theosis; they have avoided unnatural development of the soul, that is, sin, and tried to live the natural way of life (i.e., living according to created nature), turning and looking always towards God, thus achieving total unity with God through the Holy Spirit (On Theology, 7.73).

It may be stated here that the Saints are first of all "friends" of God. Secondly, through their genuine piety and absolute obedience to God, they pleased Him and have therefore been "sanctified" both in soul and body, and subsequently glorified in this world. Third, they have been accepted in God's bosom after their passing from the world into eternal life. Fourth, many of them have been given special "grace" or "favor" to perform miracles either before their departure from this world or after. Fifth, they have been granted the special gift to pray and intercede for those still living in this world and fighting the "good fight" for the glory of God and their own perfection in Christ. This intercession springs from the fact that they also are part of the "Communion of Saints". They share prayers and good works with Christians on earth and there is a constant interaction and unity between the glorified saints in Heaven and Christians who still live in the world.

The Saints of the Orthodox Church — Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

PRAYER TO THE SAINTS is encouraged by the Orthodox Church. Why? Because physical death is not a defeat for a Christian. It is a glorious passage into heaven. The Christian does not cease to be a part of the Church at death. God forbid! Nor is he set aside, idle until the Day of Judgment.

The True Church is composed of all who are in Christ-in heaven and on earth. It is not limited in membership to those presently alive. Those in heaven with Christ are alive, in communion with God, worshiping God, doing their part in the Body of Christ. They actively pray to God for all those in the Church and perhaps, indeed, for the whole world. So we pray to the saints who have departed this life, seeking their prayers, even as we ask Christian friends on earth to pray for us.

PRAYER TO THE SAINTS | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese

And another explanation:

This is probably the aspects of Orthodoxy that is the most easily misunderstood by those in the Protestant churches. The respect that is paid to the Saints of the Church (we make the sign of the cross and kiss the icons) looks a whole lot like idol worship to the uninitiated. However, it only takes a few minutes of open-minded contemplation to realize that it is no more so than, for example, placing flowers on the grave of a deceased relative or to ceremoniously honor the flag. The lives of the Saints are held before us as examples of how to lead a life of holiness, as role models for us to emulate in our own lives.

We also ask the saints to pray for us, not because we can't pray directly to God, but because they may just be better at it than we are. We take the Scripture literally when it says,

The effective fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
James 5:16

From the way they led their lives, we know that they are closer to God than most of us find ourselves in our current station in life, and that is the comfort that they provide -- we have someone helping us in our prayers. At a minimum, having someone help us pray when our worldly obligations keep us away from prayer is a good thing.

Orthodoxy

We say, well tradition teaches this and that happened. But really, is that what tradition taught that the Apostles did? Was that God breathed? We know the testaments are true of the Scriptures because they are backed up by God inspiring them to write, but what authority do we have to say that the traditions of man is also true? You say "well that's how it has always been done in the 1st century church" but we have the writings of what was being done in the first generation church, and what you speak of, is silent on the matter.

So, anybody that isn't the Apostles or mentioned in the bible that says they are full of the Holy Spirit - those people after the Apostles are not lead by the Spirit or full of the Holy Spirit. Only those in a book and the book itself? God doesn't shed his Grace on anybody else?

It is your choice to believe that way, that God's grace and miracles were all contained in a book, and once the book closed, no more of God's work or miracles. Nobody else, despite the fact that thousands in the Church were given the Spirit on Pentecost, despite the fact that the Holy Spirit was given to us by God to guide the Church forever.

It is also your choice not to do some unbiased research and find out about the life of the Church, its holy people that followed the teachings of the Apostles, up to this very day. Yes, there are living, holy people of God today full of the Holy Spirit so much that they radiate with His Light.

IMO, your view of God and His great works and Grace are very limited.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

We have eye witness reports - writings - of those asking the martyrs and Apostles to pray for them.

Not that it would change anything, but just for my own edification, would you please give some examples of those in the First Century who prayed to someone they taught to be in heaven with something they wanted them to pass on to God, clearly with the belief that they would pass it on? Just some examples from then might help. Thanks. Perhaps you'll also give some first century examples of how Christians embraced that saints were designated to certain professions (Saint of Miners, for example) - the issue of this thread. Thanks so much!





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[Dorothea]

One of the several difficulties with the doctrine of Saints is the dichotomy of where prayers are actually heard and understood by the Saints. The traditional school of thought was that the Saint heard prayers only at his holy site which was sometimes the place where he or she was martyred or some other notable event of his or her life occured. Thus, there has developed a whole system of pilgrimages to these sites in the expectation that one's prayers will be answered at these locations by the Saint.

Given the fact that not everyone is able to make a pilgrimage, the doctrine shifted to having the Saint answer prayers at sanctified altars usually containing a bit of his or her body which signified that they were somehow tied to that altar and would hear and answer prayers. There then arose the whole system of relic and reliquaries, some of which are really not for the squeamish.

Nowadays, the Saint is view somewhat as a demigod, being everywhere at the same time and hearing everyone's prayer to him or her simultaneously. Thus, a person can pray to the Saint while munching on his or her cereal at the breakfast table. That certainly saves the trouble of making a pilgrimage or even going to the nearest church with an altar or icon dedicated to the Saint

I have to say, I felt very much in the presence of God at St. Andrew's relics (his head) in a church named for him in Patras, Greece. I was moved to tears. On my knees, leaning on the marble block in front of the glass relic case. I wasn't really doing anything at first but sitting there in silence. But suddenly I thought about St. Andrew and his life. I felt like I was going back to when he was alive on earth and could feel the hardships he went through, the persecutions, and eventually the being crucified on a wooden cross in the shape of an "X" that was there next to the relic area. This is what moved me to tears. I hadn't realized all that he'd gone through at that time and I was at a loss for words. All that came out of my mouth was, "St. Andrew, please pray for us." And I crossed myself and got up to leave.

You all can call that a bunch of garbage all you want. I don't care. I know what I felt through the Spirit and I am grateful for the experience. He gave me compassion to feel what an saintly Apostle lived through at the time. Glory to God!

 

[Dorothea]

Not that it would change anything, but just for my own edification, would you please give some examples of those in the First Century who prayed to someone they taught to be in heaven with something they wanted them to pass on to God, clearly with the belief that they would pass it on? Just some examples from then might help. Thanks. Perhaps you'll also give some first century examples of how Christians embraced that saints were designated to certain professions (Saint of Miners, for example) - the issue of this thread. Thanks so much!





.

Then why bother? You want me to go and research all this for you, but you're saying it won't matter. Am I to waste my time on this?

 

[Dorothea]

Now, that I've opened my heart to you all and shared many of my experiences, I'm guessing many think I'm crazy or making things up. Anyhow, I am only honest in what I think and feel. I will bow out now. Anyway, I need a break. I have a headache staring at this computer screen for so long.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Then why bother? You want me to go and research all this for you, but you're saying it won't matter. Am I to waste my time on this?

Well, from MY perspective, just because someone did something in 80 AD does not THEREBY substantiate that it's good and right. Do you agree?

But you seem to be suggesting that praying to those now believed to be in heaven in the belief that they will pass it on to God is the original practice. Again, I'm not sure THAT, in and of itself, makes it good and right but I AM interested in the history here. You seem especially good at the historical aspect of things. Thus, my request. It would be INTERESTING to me if indeed this is the original practice (and if you can show several examples from the first century, that might even suggest an Apostolic practice). But I haven't seen anything to confirm such.

If you don't want to provide such, NO hard feelings at all. We all need to be good stewards of our time. I'm just interested.




.

 

[Lion King]

How ever you may want to spin it, they did very much go against Scripture. The Apostles setup new rules and doctrines and that was why the council ultimately was setup to see who has Authority and the consensus was not Scripture alone.

The law was in Scripture and they were saying that no longer is the law alone the Authority

Oh, dear me....

How can the apostles go against the word of the LORD? Wasn't the circumcision of the heart written in the Old Testament?

Didn't Paul use the Scriptures to preach the GOOD NEWS to the Bereans?

Didn't Jesus Christ use the Scriptures to explain His death to those who didn't believe that He was indeed the Messiah?

I humbly suggest you think twice before making such a claim.

 

[tadoflamb]

Not that it would change anything, but just for my own edification, would you please give some examples of those in the First Century who prayed to someone they taught to be in heaven with something they wanted them to pass on to God, clearly with the belief that they would pass it on? Just some examples from then might help. Thanks. Perhaps you'll also give some first century examples of how Christians embraced that saints were designated to certain professions (Saint of Miners, for example) - the issue of this thread. Thanks so much!





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It's probably in there right about the same place where you see them practicing artificial birth control.

So, you keep your condoms, and I'll keep praying to the Saints.

Fair enuf?

 

[LinuxUser]

Oh, dear me....

How can the apostles go against the word of the LORD? Wasn't the circumcision of the heart written in the Old Testament?

No

Didn't Paul use the Scriptures to preach the GOOD NEWS to the Bereans?

No, they searched what he was saying

Didn't Jesus Christ use the Scriptures to explain His death to those who didn't believe that He was indeed the Messiah?

Sometimes not always. In fact when He ask His Apostles and Pope Peter affirmed that He was the Christ, Christ response was man did not reveal that to him. Christ never used sola scriptura

I humbly suggest you think twice before making such a claim.

Don't need to the Apostles went outside of Scripture and many Protestants today would decry them because they wouldn't use Scripture as their authority