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NOTE: Even if what you quoted is Scripture, it's entirely moot to anything - in this thread or any other thread at CF known to me. It says NOTHING about the sense of hearing among dead people or saints in heaven praying for anyone. I know that. You know that.
[Just ANOTHER reason why the "fight" of a few Catholic fundamentalists for the RCC's unique post-Trent "set" of Scriptures is moot. In the rare, rare, ever-so-rare cases of when a Catholic quotes them, it's moot and just doesn't matter]
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Catherineanne said:I am flattered to be mistaken for a Catholic fundamentalist, whatever that may be, but I am a plain and simple Anglican, who just happens to have an unexpurgated Bible.
Call me old fashioned, but I see no reason to take Luther's word for excising the word of God, just because he felt like it.
I was just thinking to myself, huh, I'm pretty sure she's not a Roman Catholic
I am flattered to be mistaken for a Catholic fundamentalist, whatever that may be, but I am a plain and simple Anglican, who just happens to have an unexpurgated Bible.
Call me old fashioned, but I see no reason to take Luther's word for excising the word of God, just because he felt like it.
And as I said above, God is not under time. He does not have to wait for the second coming before he gets to stand in eternity with the saints. That is just silly. Time is part of creation, and God does not answer to any part of his creation.
So, on whose authority was your version edited, given the warning about taking away from Scripture?
Sorry, I missed this part of your response. It's not about God being "out of time", but about God adhering to a schedule which He created.
Nor did I call you one, I simply noted that Catholic funamentalists tend to bring this up. Anglicans do not accept the Apocrypha as equally Scripture - at least so such have repeatedly informed me.
But you have chosen to ignore the point. The quote you offered has nothing to do with this thread (or any other at CF, to my knowledge). It says NOTHING about the sense of hearing among dead people and/or if saints in heaven pray for those on earth or offer to God our petition requests to them. It's moot. (As tends to be all the quotes from these disputed books).
Moot to this discussion. But yes - two denominations known to me have officially acted on these disputed books: the RCC and the Anglican Communion. Luther personally chose to include the RCC set (not the Anglican one) in his German translation but like the Anglican Church, shared his view that they are not equal to the others - it was his PERSONAL opinion (unlike the Anglican Church), the Lutheran Confessions say NOTHING about them, one way or the other. But again, that's moot to ANYTHING here. Your quote from what your denomination regards to be Scripture but inferior is moot - it has nothing to do with anything at issue in this thread (or any other known to me).
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Schedules are in time.
Here it is again; God is not subject to time. Christ was subject to time while he was mortal, but is no longer. God has never himself been subject to time, except in the Incarnation.
If you claim so.
The story doesn't have to do with the Christians who have reposed talking to those who haven't yet. That's not what the story is about. Maybe that's why there's the confusion.I don't understand the conversation, we're speaking about us Christians talking to dead Christians. The story in Luke shows that the dead is communicating with each and and at no point does it show that the dead is communicating with the living, so I'm not even sure, what this conversation is supposed to mean.
True, but since I used Scripture verses to no avail, I figured I'd talk to you heart to heart and through experience(s) and see if you understood what I was saying then. It appears you do not. Again, what it comes down to is the interpretations of the Church Fathers you disagree with because your interpretation doesn't line up with them. I realize that. Do you?I'm sorry, when it comes to scripture, I don't start believing things because I think that's how it should happen. People seem to think that "Oh, God can do anything so therefore what I think should be done is what is actually being doing". And while it's true that God can do anything, it doesn't mean that God does everything that we think of. If God wanted us to know that we should ask for those who have passed on to intercede for us, I'm pretty sure He would have told us. Otherwise, we're just creating more traditions and we're making God say things that He didn't say. The Apostle Paul warns us not to think beyond what is written in 1 Corinthians 4:6, and I'll take that advice.
Good question.Do you realize that what you've just done here is express a tradition? Your tradition is that only the Apostles and disciples, only the men who wrote the Bible or were alive when Christ walked the earth, were inspired by the Holy Spirit and that the men who came after them in the Church, who were responsible for preserving the writings and forming what we now know of as the Bible, were not. Your tradition is that it doesn't matter what interpretation of the Bible the men who came after the Apostles held when they decided which books were Holy Scripture and which writings were not. This is a new tradition, an innovation.
Why is your tradition to be believed over one that is 1000+ years older?
Why would the men who decided what the Bible is comprised of get right which books are Holy Scripture when they apparently did not interpret those Scriptures correctly, according to you?
Because the angel Gabriel said she was - most blessed (paraphrasing). There are many holy people, but only one that is the mother of Christ God.What makes her "most holy"? What if I sent you a message saying "Most Holy Dorothea, please pray for me"? Wouldn't that strike you as odd?
You didn't say "Most Holy friend"
yes, I know, but you tried.It does. I guess I just can't get past the whole "saint's being in heaven" thing.
It's because we don't even know who's where.It does. I guess I just can't get past the whole "saint's being in heaven" thing.
"Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."Because the angel Gabriel said she was - most blessed (paraphrasing). There are many holy people, but only one that is the mother of Christ God.
There are many holy things - the Bible, relics, altar, people, etc. What is God's is holy.
We see highly favored and blessed among women as also meaning holy."Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."
Sorry, don't see "Most Holy" in there.
I'm sorry, but I find your saying we have been deceived in asking others to pray for us as insensitive and insulting, sun.It's because we don't even know who's where.
Better NOT to pray to someone who's died,
(Not that the dead hear you anyhow)
But it does not bring glory to our God and
He's a jealous God.
Praying to a 'saint' is not at all the same as asking
a friend to pray for you.
Now I ask YOU to pray in agreement with ME for those
who have been deceived in this area.
Open the eyes of our hearts Lord!
Amen
the communion of saints is an understood and accepted part of the tradition and belief of the Church. If your particular part of the church doesn't get the communion of saints, then I am sorry about that, but that does not make what I and others are saying wrong. It simply isn't.
Any attempt to put the communion of saints into the future necessitates putting God himself under time, and subject to it. There is no Scripture whatever to make God subject to time, and plenty to confirm that he is outside it. Eternity is where God is; outside time. And that is where the communion of saints is.
When Daniel and John have their visions they are not looking into the future, they are looking through the veil which separates the world of time from the eternal realm, and into eternity. The saints in eternity are as described in Daniel and Revelation; they stand before the throne and pray for the world, and they add their prayers to ours.
Here's some historical information on the Intercession of the Saints:
The fact that Christians ask the prayers of saints and their intercession is prefigured in the New Testament. St. Paul asks the Christian Ephesians, Thessalonians, Colossians and Romans to pray for him (Ephes. 6: 19, Thesal. 5: 25; Colos. 4: 3, and Rom. 15: 30-31).
To welcome the prayers of those now in heaven is entirely unrelated to the affirmation that Christians can hear the prayer requests of all believers (including those not verbalized) and that they extend those specific requests to the Father. My grandfather MAY be praying in a general sense for me (although there is NOTHING - absolutely nothing whatsoever - that confirms or suggests such). That's altogether and entirely unrelated to the dogmatic affirmation that I can ask him to pray for a new Corvette and ERGO he (and all those in heaven) will petition God to give me a new Corvette. It's entirely and wholly unrelated to whether my grandfather (or great, great uncle or St. Martin Luther) "hear" my prayers and offer my requests to God. Apples and oranges.In one of his letters, St. Basil explicitly writes that he accepts the intercession of the apostles, prophets and martyrs, and he seeks their prayers to God (Letter 360).
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