Saint Photius, Saint Gregory Palamas and others explicitly teaching the Immaculate Conception?

[TheLostCoin]

Lev Gillet was a uniate monk.

What? He officially converted to Orthodoxy because of Rome's ambivalence to their Eastern Rites. He WAS a Uniate, but he left Rome for Orthodoxy, dying in Communion with the Church, leaving beyond several writings on behalf of Orthodoxy.

The argument of the "Immaculate Conception" as defined by him is a Sanctification from the first moment of Conception by the Holy Spirit - not that she was free of Original inherited guilt.

 

[TheLostCoin]

yes, but death means separation. sin means to miss the mark. and death, which is coming for all of us, misses the mark. this is why we can say Mary is all holy and sinless, but still needed her Son. she still needed to be in the upper room at Pentecost to receive the Spirit for her salvation.

By Orthodox theological standards, is there an inherited death of the soul (not physical death, death of the soul)? WAS there an inherited death of the soul which was abolished by Christ, which only re-enters via personal sin?

It still seems rather unclear in the Council of Carthage, which still seems to lean towards Latin understanding (makes more sense considering the African Churches used Latin and the proximity to Western Europe)

I also don't know if you can classify "death" as "sinful", because if all instances of death miss the mark and are thereby sinful, God sinned when punished Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

[buzuxi02]

What? He officially converted to Orthodoxy because of Rome's ambivalence to their Eastern Rites. He WAS a Uniate, but he left Rome for Orthodoxy, dying in Communion with the Church, leaving beyond several writings on behalf of Orthodoxy.

The argument of the "Immaculate Conception" as defined by him is a Sanctification from the first moment of Conception by the Holy Spirit - not that she was free of Original inherited guilt.

Yes, but what I'm not seeing is how Lev sees that? For example my previous post actually quotes from the Liturgy of the Anunciation which says sanctification took place when Mary was overshadowed after she gave consent to Gabriel's message.
You also posted the canon of Carthage on Adam and how all men die from that original sin and Mary died. It's even said in the Liturgy of Dormition that "her end conformed to her nature", so obviously that cant be used to support IC. So I'm not sure how your reading IC into this? Even the quoted parts from St.Photios shows how words such as pure, and undefiled, and without stain, were simply adjectives for virginity and not much more.

 

[ArmyMatt]

By Orthodox theological standards, is there an inherited death of the soul (not physical death, death of the soul)? WAS there an inherited death of the soul which was abolished by Christ, which only re-enters via personal sin?

It still seems rather unclear in the Council of Carthage, which still seems to lean towards Latin understanding (makes more sense considering the African Churches used Latin and the proximity to Western Europe)

I also don't know if you can classify "death" as "sinful", because if all instances of death miss the mark and are thereby sinful, God sinned when punished Sodom and Gomorrah.

God can't sin, because He is the mark. so you can't make the argument that He sins ever, because the mark to miss is Himself, and He cannot miss Himself.

the soul was definitely darkened and disordered, which is sinful in that it's the effects of being fallen.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Yes, but what I'm not seeing is how Lev sees that? For example my previous post actually quotes from the Liturgy of the Anunciation which says sanctification took place when Mary was overshadowed after she gave consent to Gabriel's message.
You also posted the canon of Carthage on Adam and how all men die from that original sin and Mary died. It's even said in the Liturgy of Dormition that "her end conformed to her nature", so obviously that cant be used to support IC. So I'm not sure how your reading IC into this? Even the quoted parts from St.Photios shows how words such as pure, and undefiled, and without stain, were simply adjectives for virginity and not much more.

The Immaculate Conception insofar as it's understood that the Holy Spirit sanctified her from the first moment of her conception.

 

[buzuxi02]

The Immaculate Conception insofar as it's understood that the Holy Spirit sanctified her from the first moment of her conception.

I think too much emphasis is placed on that, what some dont say is we teach the same for other saints as well.. Mary is not the only one. Infact its explained by the Fathers that the grace is that she was born from a sterile womb of Anna not because Mary apart from her parents was given something unique. St. John of Damascus on His Oration to the Nativity of the Theotokos writes that Joachim and Anna are the "wholly undefiled couple" in Chapter 5 would that imply the Latin IC goes back an extra generation? St. John even salutes the seed of Joachim for being undefiled (which means he does not accept IC), " Oh most- blessed lions of Joachim of whom a wholly unblemished seed was sent forth!"(Ch2)Oration on the Nativity of the Holy Theotokos Mary (St. John of Damascus) | MYSTAGOGY RESOURCE CENTER

In the Akathyst of St. Nicholas of Myra we teach the sinlessness of his conception:
Rejoice, thou who wast purified from thy mother's womb!
Rejoice, thou who wast sanctified even unto the end!
Rejoice, thou who didst amaze thy parents by thy birth!
Rejoice, thou who didst manifest power of soul straightway after birth!
Rejoice, plant of the land of promise!
Rejoice, flower of divine planting!(Eikos 1)St. Nicholas Center ::: Akathist

We also teach the same for the Prophet Jeremiah (Jeremiah 1:4-5) and of course for John the Baptist.

 

[TheLostCoin]

What I posted was that Saint Gregory Palamas seemed to suggest that the generations of sinless parents kept on becoming more sinless until the Virgin Mary was born such that she was sanctified from her time as an embryo.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What I posted was that Saint Gregory Palamas seemed to suggest that the generations of sinless parents kept on becoming more sinless until the Virgin Mary was born such that she was sanctified from her time as an embryo.

yes. Sts Joachim and Anna were the only two who truly came together according to the fallen mode of reproduction passionlessly.

 

[Barney2.0]

Well the idea of Mary being sinless from birth was professed in the East. Although it was a bit obscure, it’s existence was obvious. This idea even found its way into Islam. It would be completely historically and theologically inaccurate to state that it was just made by the Catholic Church.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well the idea of Mary being sinless from birth was professed in the East. Although it was a bit obscure, it’s existence was obvious. This idea even found its way into Islam. It would be completely historically and theologically inaccurate to state that it was just made by the Catholic Church.

that's not the issue with the IC.

 

[Moses Medina]

Posting to further follow this discussion.

As one has said to the TC, this discussion has the potential for much good in learning others. I was under the impression what made Mary sinless was the annunciation and her action. I have learned much reading through the thread. Blessings to your seeking TC.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Saint Photius the Great - Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit