Sad News To Report

[Shrewd Manager]

No, there's a third. God has chosen us, but there's a condition of faith that is necessary for our salvation. God's choosing is not eny, meanie, mime.,moe and it's also not universal. There are only about the thousand verses indicating that God chooses based on a humble heart of faith.

That's Samson all over.

 

[brinny]

renniks said: ↑
No, there's a third. God has chosen us, but there's a condition of faith that is necessary for our salvation. God's choosing is not eny, meanie, mime.,moe and it's also not universal. There are only about the thousand verses indicating that God chooses based on a humble heart of faith.

That's Samson all over.

This makes no sense.

Praying.

Let it rain.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

This makes no sense.

Praying.

Let it rain.

Sampson was not a humble-hearted individual. He was a fun-loving ill-tempered maniac. One of God's greats nonetheless.

 

[renniks]

That's Samson all over.

Care to explain your obscure comments?

 

[brinny]

Shrewd Manager said: ↑
That's Samson all over.

Care to explain your obscure comments?

i agree.

 

[brinny]

Sampson was not a humble-hearted individual. He was a fun-loving ill-tempered maniac. One of God's greats nonetheless.

 

[renniks]

Sampson was not a humble-hearted individual. He was a fun-loving ill-tempered maniac. One of God's greats nonetheless.

That's Samson all over.

Yes. God Chose Samson for a job in spite of Samson's temperament. But we are talking about salvation here, not a job. And in the end Samson did humble himself.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes. God Chose Samson for a job in spite of Samson's temperament. But we are talking about salvation here, not a job. And in the end Samson did humble himself.

Reminds me of when the disciples ask Jesus about why the man born blind was that way, and he tells them it's so the works of God might be displayed in him.

Or when he says the doctor comes for the sick, the healthy have no need of him.

 

[brinny]

renniks said: ↑
Yes. God Chose Samson for a job in spite of Samson's temperament. But we are talking about salvation here, not a job. And in the end Samson did humble himself.

Reminds me of when the disciples ask Jesus about why the man born blind was that way, and he tells them it's so the works of God might be displayed in him.

Or when he says the doctor comes for the sick, the healthy have no need of him.

This makes no sense.

 

[renniks]

Reminds me of when the disciples ask Jesus about why the man born blind was that way, and he tells them it's so the works of God might be displayed in him.

Or when he says the doctor comes for the sick, the healthy have no need of him.

None of which makes universalism true. In fact why do they healthy have no need of him? Actually they do ,they just refuse to acknowledge it.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

None of which makes universalism true. In fact why do they healthy have no need of him? Actually they do ,they just refuse to acknowledge it.

Yes, they do refuse to acknowledge that they are even worse off that the taxman who prays 'forgive me Lord, a sinner'.

So follow that to its logical conclusion, reason with me..evil men wax worse and worse, they reap what they sow, they get sick of the pigsty, then...?

Come on, you can get there.

 

[renniks]

Yes, they do refuse to acknowledge that they are even worse off that the taxman who prays 'forgive me Lord, a sinner'.

So follow that to its logical conclusion, reason with me..evil men wax worse and worse, they reap what they sow, they get sick of the pigsty, then...?

Come on, you can get there.

Then they either turn around and head back to their father or not. All sin is pride at its root. And many refuse to allow it to be rooted out. Salvation is a free gift, but not all receive it. Revelation 22:17


If
you are in a drought-stricken land, and I come to you and say, "food truck is coming tomorrow to the next village," and you tell me that that is just a rumor and you don't believe it, who's fault is it when you don't get any food? Is it the fault of the one who offered?

 

[FineLinen]

Then they either turn around and head back to their father or not. All sin is pride at its root. And many refuse to allow it to be rooted out. Salvation is a free gift, but not all receive it. Revelation 22:17


If you are in a drought-stricken land, and I come to you and say, "food truck is coming tomorrow to the next village," and you tell me that that is just a rumor and you don't believe it, who's fault is it when you don't get any food? Is it the fault of the one who offered?

Dear Renniks: Assuming you read the O.P. you have exactly two (2) options>>>>

Did you choose Him, or did He choose you?

 

[A_Thinker]

Dear Renniks: Assuming you read the O.P. you have exactly two (2) options>>>>

Did you choose Him, or did He choose you?

Why ... does it matter ???

 

[renniks]

Dear Renniks: Assuming you read the O.P. you have exactly two (2) options>>>>

Did you choose Him, or did He choose you?

It's not that simple, and I already answered that question.

 

[FineLinen]

It's not that simple, and I already answered that question.

Dear Renniks: I despise the word simple. Nothing is simple in our Father's world!

The fact is this: we have exactly two options, we by our brilliant resources have chosen Him, or He, by His exceedingly abundant resources has chosen us. There is NO middle ground, no other options!

kathistemi= to cause to stand

tasso = to ordain/ appoint

Those who were ordained to eternal life became believers

 

[brinny]

Dear Renniks: I despise the word simple. Nothing is simple in our Father's world!

The fact is this: we have exactly two options, we by our brilliant resources have chosen Him, or He, by His exceedingly abundant resources has chosen us. There is NO middle ground, no other options!

kathistemi= to cause to stand

tasso = to ordain/ appoint

Those who were ordained to eternal life became believers

This makes no sense.

Regarding simplicity, God is the epitome of simplicity, which thwarts and is the antithesis of chaos and confusion.

He is not the Author of confusion.

Satan is. He "sows" confusion and distorts God's Word (or attempts to).

Praying.

Let it rain.

 

[renniks]

Dear Renniks: I despise the word simple. Nothing is simple in our Father's world!

The fact is this: we have exactly two options, we by our brilliant resources have chosen Him, or He, by His exceedingly abundant resources has chosen us. There is NO middle ground, no other options!

kathistemi= to cause to stand

tasso = to ordain/ appoint

Those who were ordained to eternal life became believers

Was Judas ordained to eternal life? Because he was one of the chosen.
As I already said yes he chooses us, but not without conditions. In fact the verse you're talkin about, comes right after a list of conditions.
"Remain in me and I also remain in you."

If"you do not remain me you will be thrown in the fire and burned."
When Paul talks about our choseness in Romans, he makes it clear that those who missed it, were themselves to blame, because they pursued the promise the wrong way, by works instead of faith. We are not chosen unconditionally.

 

[FineLinen]

He Comes; He Calls; We Follow

One of the many fundamental truths hidden in plain sight in the Bible, is the truth that when God calls we come, and when He commissions, we go forth in His name....PERIOD! The general and popular concept that God's call is a matter of an offer to come, and His commission is an offer to go forth serving, each respectively subject to our agreement, is the height of contrariety in respect to how Jesus, as Lord, operates administratively in matters of the kingdom of God. Jesus' choice of word to indicate the effect of the call of God sets the scene for our understanding: In John. 6:44, Jesus testified that, "No man can come unto me, except the Father who hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (KJV)

Though the Authorized Version (King James Version) makes it clear that the action of coming to Christ is not set in motion by our choice to do so, but by the action of the Father, without which NO MAN can come to Christ, yet it, along with other conventional translations, does not make clear the force of the Father's "call." The "call" is really not merely a "call." The Greek word has a far greater force than "call." The force of the Greek word falls nowhere short of "drag." What Jesus really said, in the choice of His wording, was that no man is able to come to Him unless the Father drags that one.

Jonathan Mitchell's Translation of the New Testament presents to us the full force of Jesus' meaning. Here it is with the Greek extended and amplified: "No man is able (or: is presently having power) to come toward Me unless the Father--the One sending Me--should drag him [as with a net] (or: draw him [as drawing water in a bucket or a sword from its sheath]), and I Myself will raise him up (resurrect him; stand him back up again) within (or: in union with) the Last Day." We're not dependent entirely to Mr. Mitchell's text alone, for many other students of New Testament Greek have noted the same fact. Even Vines (very conservative) Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, is careful to note immediately under listing of "draw," that "dragging" is indicated. The sense is continued on as Jesus says emphatically, "...and I Myself WILL raise him up..." (Emphasis mine) No ifs, ands, or buts.

But we can come to the issue from another perspective---that of the Book of Acts record of the conversion of Saul of Tarsus.

Toward a major change of mind (repentance), I implore the reader to check out that record again. You see, most Christians, in reading the account, presume things utterly foreign to what went on there on the road to Damascus, when Saul (shortly to become Paul, an emissary of Jesus Christ) is thrown to the ground by a bright light from heaven, followed by a disturbingly-questioning, attention-arresting, Voice of authority. What we have in that scene is the resurrected, glorified, Jesus, with the kind and level of prerogative possessed only by Deity, commanding Saul's recognition of Jesus' lordship. No, no, no, not anything like the popular concept, "will you accept Jesus as your Lord?"

It's the Lord BEING Lord of Saul, because that's who He IS. It's the Lord COMMANDING Saul into a saving and serving relationship with Christ. There's no mere offer of salvation or service. Saul is made to understand that the One he has been persecuting (in persecuting Christians) ---as Saul as Paul will later write-- "IS Lord of all." When Paul would later write in Ephesians, "For by grace are you saved through faith...," he was explaining the nature of his experience theologically.

What happened to him on the way to Damascus was grace in operation---powerful grace, dragging grace, non-negotiable grace, effective grace,stopping Saul in his tracks and bringing to bear upon and within him, that persuasive Power that births saving faith. Saving faith, the faith that trusts God, comes from being completely convinced by the Truth. The process of saving faith is a process of so absolutely impressing the Truth upon the heart that nothing else is possible. It is, ultimately understood, the faith OF Christ. Jesus had intrusively inserted Himself into Saul's life, and did so, as it were, with batteries included, i.e., when Christ comes in, He comes in with His faith included. Faith is a gift, within the supreme gift of God's Son to us. "For by grace are you saved through faith, and THAT not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God." (Eph. 2: 8, 9 KJV) The Mitchell translation of the last phrase reads, "the gift of and from God (or, reading it as apposition: the gift which is God)."

Later Paul, in writing to the Church in Philippi, summed it up quite nicely for us: "...that I might apprehend that for which I have been apprehended of Christ Jesus." (Phil. 3:12, KJV) Here again we have a case where the Authorized Version blunts the full force of what Paul was saying. "Apprehend" does convey the action, if we think of "apprehend" as police might apprehend a criminal who is attempting to escape, but it is better rendered from the Greek as "seized," or "grasped," or "taken hold of." Paul desired to grasp that for which he had been grasped of Christ Jesus. How perfectly he describes in those few words what happened to him on the road to Damascus. It's so clear: Jesus grabbed him for Himself and for the kingdom of God.

We see the result as recorded in the end of The Book of Acts, with Paul receiving all who came to him in prison, "speaking to them of those things pertaining to the kingdom of God, and of the Lord Jesus Christ." -John Gavazzoni-

 

[brinny]

He Comes; He Calls; We Follow

One of the many fundamental truths hidden in plain sight in the Bible, is the truth that when God calls we come, and when He commissions, we go forth in His name....PERIOD! The general and popular concept that God's call is a matter of an offer to come, and His commission is an offer to go forth serving, each respectively subject to our agreement, is the height of contrariety in respect to how Jesus, as Lord, operates administratively in matters of the kingdom of God. Jesus' choice of word to indicate the effect of the call of God sets the scene for our understanding: In John. 6:44, Jesus testified that, "No man can come unto me, except the Father who hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (KJV)

Though the Authorized Version (King James Version) makes it clear that the action of coming to Christ is not set in motion by our choice to do so, but by the action of the Father, without which NO MAN can come to Christ, yet it, along with other conventional translations, does not make clear the force of the Father's "call." The "call" is really not merely a "call." The Greek word has a far greater force than "call." The force of the Greek word falls nowhere short of "drag." What Jesus really said, in the choice of His wording, was that no man is able to come to Him unless the Father drags that one.

Jonathan Mitchell's Translation of the New Testament presents to us the full force of Jesus' meaning. Here it is with the Greek extended and amplified: "No man is able (or: is presently having power) to come toward Me unless the Father--the One sending Me--should drag him [as with a net] (or: draw him [as drawing water in a bucket or a sword from its sheath]), and I Myself will raise him up (resurrect him; stand him back up again) within (or: in union with) the Last Day." We're not dependent entirely to Mr. Mitchell's text alone, for many other students of New Testament Greek have noted the same fact. Even Vines (very conservative) Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, is careful to note immediately under listing of "draw," that "dragging" is indicated. The sense is continued on as Jesus says emphatically, "...and I Myself WILL raise him up..." (Emphasis mine) No ifs, ands, or buts.

But we can come to the issue from another perspective---that of the Book of Acts record of the conversion of Saul of Tarsus.

Toward a major change of mind (repentance), I implore the reader to check out that record again. You see, most Christians, in reading the account, presume things utterly foreign to what went on there on the road to Damascus, when Saul (shortly to become Paul, an emissary of Jesus Christ) is thrown to the ground by a bright light from heaven, followed by a disturbingly-questioning, attention-arresting, Voice of authority. What we have in that scene is the resurrected, glorified, Jesus, with the kind and level of prerogative possessed only by Deity, commanding Saul's recognition of Jesus' lordship. No, no, no, not anything like the popular concept, "will you accept Jesus as your Lord?"

It's the Lord BEING Lord of Saul, because that's who He IS. It's the Lord COMMANDING Saul into a saving and serving relationship with Christ. There's no mere offer of salvation or service. Saul is made to understand that the One he has been persecuting (in persecuting Christians) ---as Saul as Paul will later write-- "IS Lord of all." When Paul would later write in Ephesians, "For by grace are you saved through faith...," he was explaining the nature of his experience theologically.

What happened to him on the way to Damascus was grace in operation---powerful grace, dragging grace, non-negotiable grace, effective grace,stopping Saul in his tracks and bringing to bear upon and within him, that persuasive Power that births saving faith. Saving faith, the faith that trusts God, comes from being completely convinced by the Truth. The process of saving faith is a process of so absolutely impressing the Truth upon the heart that nothing else is possible. It is, ultimately understood, the faith OF Christ. Jesus had intrusively inserted Himself into Saul's life, and did so, as it were, with batteries included, i.e., when Christ comes in, He comes in with His faith included. Faith is a gift, within the supreme gift of God's Son to us. "For by grace are you saved through faith, and THAT not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God." (Eph. 2: 8, 9 KJV) The Mitchell translation of the last phrase reads, "the gift of and from God (or, reading it as apposition: the gift which is God)."

Later Paul, in writing to the Church in Philippi, summed it up quite nicely for us: "...that I might apprehend that for which I have been apprehended of Christ Jesus." (Phil. 3:12, KJV) Here again we have a case where the Authorized Version blunts the full force of what Paul was saying. "Apprehend" does convey the action, if we think of "apprehend" as police might apprehend a criminal who is attempting to escape, but it is better rendered from the Greek as "seized," or "grasped," or "taken hold of." Paul desired to grasp that for which he had been grasped of Christ Jesus. How perfectly he describes in those few words what happened to him on the road to Damascus. It's so clear: Jesus grabbed him for Himself and for the kingdom of God.

We see the result as recorded in the end of The Book of Acts, with Paul receiving all who came to him in prison, "speaking to them of those things pertaining to the kingdom of God, and of the Lord Jesus Christ." -John Gavazzoni-

The bottom line, just as other members have stated, based on what is written in God's Word, is that some will reject Jesus Christ and the grace offered through Him, and will remain unrepentant, and thus are destined for the lake of fire, which is where the devil and his angels will also be, for all of eternity.

Tragic.