Sad history

[Akita Suggagaki]

Guess who said, "They have poisoned the blood of our country."

 

[USincognito]

They did what they promised.
Without the insane racism and overreach,
they could have done...who knows what.

I've engaged in a thought exercise where Nazism doesn't have anti-Semitism as a core tenet. In that alternative history, WWII turns out very differently.

 

[USincognito]

The German government failed to solve the problems caused by the Great Depression. Germany was politically divided.

Germany had only been unified in 1871, and only had a 15 year history of democracy when Hitler came to power.

I'd like to think that as much as some folks here have been told the country is being destroyed from within and only a strong autocrat can fix things, enough of us retain the liberal democracy muscle memory to stop that from happening.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

There has been a lot on lately about Nazi Germany, world on Fire on PBS, All the Light We Cannot See on Netflix, etc. It makes me wonder how people could get so swept up in such madness. Have we learned anything? I am really beginning to wonder.

Adolf Hitler and the Nazis won followers by promising to create a strong Germany. The Nazis promised to

• fix the economy and put people back to work;
• return Germany to the status of a great European, and even world, power;
• regain territory Germany had lost in World War I;
• create a strong authoritarian German government;
• and unite all Germans along racial and ethnic lines.

The Nazis played on people’s hopes, fears, and prejudices. They also offered scapegoats.

While I know people try to draw parallels between horrible governments of the past and draw inferences about about what modern day political entities "might do", I think it's something of a fool's errand.

Primarily, because the first couple bullet points are something that almost every politician says/promises. I can't think of a single candidate, ever, that's said "I'm going to try to eliminate jobs, make the domestic economy worse, and just let another country take charge of the world's economy", so I don't think we can draw any inferences from that.

Creating a strong authoritarian government (while not my cup of tea) is something that politicians from around the world have been promising...the vast majority don't end up causing the type of global havoc Hitler caused.

Ethnocentrism is by no means a unique attribute. It's actually pretty pervasive in various countries all across the world.

Playing on peoples' hopes and fears is also not unique.


I know people desperately want to know what the "magic/evil formula" was that led to rise of Hitler (with good reason, people want to prevent that from happening again), but unfortunately, there is no highly accurate predictor. Since there's only been one Hitler (and he's still the measuring stick we use to define evil to this day), there's not really enough to go on.

The attributes mentioned, unfortunately, aren't much of a better a predictor of "the next Hitler" than funny little mustaches. There are certainly people who have checked a lot of those boxes off and were evil (Kim Jong il/un, Pol Pot, Pinochet, Idi Amin, Gaddafi, Ceaușescu), none of them ever really rose to the level of creating the global havoc caused by Hilter.

 

[Astrid]

I've engaged in a thought exercise where Nazism doesn't have anti-Semitism as a core tenet. In that alternative history, WWII turns out very differently.

So the anti semitism wssnt 110% bad-
In a sick sad sort of way,

 

[Astrid]

They didn't do anything. The prosperity of the pre-war years of Nazi germany were bought by stealing from the wealthy minorities and by huge amounts of debt.

The nazi government wasn't strong or efficient, either. It was one of the most inefficient regimes in history, with multiple factions always fighting for dominance and getting in the way of each other.

Thats only one way of seeing it, but im not
interested in debate on 1930s germany.

 

[USincognito]

So the anti semitism wssnt 110% bad-
In a sick sad sort of way,

That's the opposite of what I'm saying.

Jewish Germans proudly fought for the Imperial Army. Not oppressing and murdering Jews would have added another million soldiers, sailors and airmen. Then there's the pre-War Jewish brain drain that wouldn't have happened. The Nazi war machine would have all that much more powerful if they hadn't driven off or killed a significant and valuable part of their population.

 

[Astrid]

I've paid attention to what the west (in general) had done since the "Opium Wars" of the British. I assume that much of what you’re referring to involves the political ideas of the West (capitalism/democracy/communism/socialism/etc). I don't know exactly what you mean though....ideas travel in both directions, and inspire awful behavior sometimes.

Do you know about the torture of US Marines at the hands of the Chinese, the public statements they made renouncing their loyalty to the US and devotion to China? Did you know that it so shocked US officials to see men saying such things we invented a technique or method that must have been used by the Chinese on POWS that we called "brainwashing"?

Did you know that the idea of brainwashing and potential discovery of such methods was the inspiration for several CIA missions like Operation Bluebird and MKULTRA?

I don't blame the Chinese for the atrocious behavior of the CIA against US citizens but the connections are there.

Surely you don't blame the west for capitalism and communism?

Im not saying Chinese are nice people.
Im not a nice person myself.

Im not complaining about ideas.

But if the topic is some sort of equivalence,
we never had gunboats in the Mississippi,
sacked the Smithsonian, or massed troops on
any westerners border nor bombarded from
the sea. Or took sides in your civil war.

 

[Astrid]

That's the opposite of what I'm saying.

Jewish Germans proudly fought for the Imperial Army. Not oppressing and murdering Jews would have added another million soldiers, sailors and airmen. Then there's the pre-War Jewish brain drain that wouldn't have happened. The Nazi war machine would have all that much more powerful if they hadn't driven off or killed a significant and valuable part of their population.

I dont suppose it was, its my own thought.

But its still so. As you clearly agree.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Im not saying Chinese are nice people.
Im not a nice person myself.

Im not complaining about ideas.

But if the topic is some sort of equivalence,
we never had gunboats in the Mississippi,
sacked the Smithsonian, or massed troops on
any westerners border nor bombarded from
the sea. Or took sides in your civil war.

Yeah but you're generalizing the west in a way I find curious.

Sure, the British empire bombarded the coast of China during the Opium War, and had a laugh at the empress' letter requesting that they stop selling opium to Chinese. These are certainly unkind things. The British finally had a product to trade with China at a profit and didn't want to give it up.

Did someone drive gunboats up the yellow river?

Did we or some other western power sack your history museum?

I know support was provided to Chang during the civil war...but I don't remember if it was purely material or involved actual troops.

 

[Astrid]

Yeah but you're generalizing the west in a way I find curious.

Sure, the British empire bombarded the coast of China during the Opium War, and had a laugh at the empress' letter requesting that they stop selling opium to Chinese. These are certainly unkind things. The British finally had a product to trade with China at a profit and didn't want to give it up.

Did someone drive gunboats up the yellow river?

Did we or some other western power sack your history museum?

I know support was provided to Chang during the civil war...but I don't remember if it was purely material or involved actual troops.

I spent 5 yrs in the USA, travelled in Europe.
Grew up / live now in Hk.

My attitude, thoughts, attitude toward the west are not so
simole.
I believe my earlier comment was that after all the chaos
in China, a strong govt has provided for peace and prosperity.

The chaos has been internally generated in part, but
foreigners played a majot role and ruthlessly exploited
the weakness of China.

To your q, about did this or did that, look up something
about looting the winter palace, and american gunboats in
China.

America is to this day involving itself in prlonging
our current civil war.

But never mind that, inform yourself as you may, its
way off thread topic.

 

[keith99]

I've engaged in a thought exercise where Nazism doesn't have anti-Semitism as a core tenet. In that alternative history, WWII turns out very differently.

Not just antisemitism. The same attitude applied to other groups. The most important being Slavic people. That led to plans to arm Slavs who had been oppressed by Russia for centuries to fail to come to pass. Those groups would have provided millions of near fanatical soldiers.

And the Nazis also turned on their own. That both German war heroes and fanatical Nazis were murdered during The Night of the Long Knives opened the eyes of many within Germany who had previously supported the Nazi regime.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I spent 5 yrs in the USA, travelled in Europe.
Grew up / live now in Hk.

I remember.

My attitude, thoughts, attitude toward the west are not so
simole.

Ok.

I believe my earlier comment was that after all the chaos
in China, a strong govt has provided for peace and prosperity.

I've often looked at what we call oppression in China as a rather measured, if not requirement, of maintaining control of a nation of 1 billion people.

The chaos has been internally generated in part, but
foreigners played a majot role and ruthlessly exploited
the weakness of China.

That's an interesting view. Japan definitely saw China as exploitable...so did Russia...but I considered most western influences to be minor.

To your q, about did this or did that, look up something
about looting the winter palace, and american gunboats in
China.

You say gunboats and as someone from the US, my mind immediately goes to Vietnam.

I knew we took some part in the Opium wars but I didn't know about the gunboats.

As for the Winter Palace...well, obviously it was looted, but I don't know exactly what details you get told in China and the nature of them. Do you see these as having huge impacts on Chinese culture?

What does China teach its citizens about the Chinese Cultural Revolution?

Which of those do you think had a bigger impact on modern China?

America is to this day involving itself in prlonging
our current civil war.

I have unfortunately been reminded of an argument I used to make when I was a teenager on AOL (an old US online service provider) against anarchists in political forums....

The short version of it can be simply stated as....

The advantages of cooperation in pursuit of a goal means that not only is anarchy inherently unstable...but also...all governments trend towards totalitarianism.

But never mind that, inform yourself as you may, its
way off thread topic.

I'm not trying to persuade you....I'm sure you and I have gotten a completely different view of history. I was just surprised to hear someone suggest that western interference had a bigger impact on modern China than Mao.

 

[Nithavela]

Thats only one way of seeing it, but im not
interested in debate on 1930s germany.

Then why join a thread that is debating that topic?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I've engaged in a thought exercise where Nazism doesn't have anti-Semitism as a core tenet. In that alternative history, WWII turns out very differently.

If antisemitism wasn't a core tenet of the national socialist party....then they had zero chance of coming to power.

Post WW1 Germany had a very diverse set of varying political beliefs and political groups/parties.

The only way to appeal to all of them was to unify them against an enemy. People are willing to drop their moral views, their common decency, and let their rights be trampled in order to win against a greater threat.

It seems stupid....it seems dumb....but it works. It doesn't matter if you are from a wide range of backgrounds and experiences...if you are struggling, and anxious about the future, and someone comes along with a person or group of people to blame....it doesn't matter of it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. People will unify against those being blamed.

Were the Jewish people responsible for the defeat of Germany in WW1? No. Did they have vastly more wealth? No...just slightly more on average. Did they disproportionately occupy certain professions like professors in university or bankers? Yes...but that doesn't mean they didn't earn/deserve those positions. Were they behind the oppressive and economically crippling treaties Germany was forced to agree to? No.

But people are dumb and have no patience for complicated answers. Pointing at a group and blaming them is very uncomplicated and easy to understand.

No...I didn't throw in the question about Jews occupying certain jobs at disproportionate numbers because that's a popular argument these days. It's real....nazis actually used that argument...and it's nothing new. Yes, many here used the same scapegoating argument nazis used. Just be happy I'm not going to point out their affection towards social justice....or the practice of shouting down political opponents so no one could hear them.

Edit- Look at the OP. Why was the communist party also on the rise? Different group being blamed for everything....the wealthy. Same principle...different scapegoat.

Now imagine a communist party that doesn't scapegoat any group for all the problems....that's a communist party that never acquires power.

 

[Astrid]

Then why join a thread that is debating that topic?

The subtext appeared to be about Trump republicans, tho
the thread has not gone that way.
You neednt read my posts.

 

[Nithavela]

The subtext appeared to be about Trump republicans, tho
the thread has not gone that way.
You neednt read my posts.

I think the subtext wasn't specifically towards trump, but towards incompetent, populist, far right leaders in general. But nice of you to recognise Trump as one of those.

 

[Astrid]

I remember.



Ok.




I've often looked at what we call oppression in China as a rather measured, if not requirement, of maintaining control of a nation of 1 billion people.




That's an interesting view. Japan definitely saw China as exploitable...so did Russia...but I considered most western influences to be minor.





You say gunboats and as someone from the US, my mind immediately goes to Vietnam.

I knew we took some part in the Opium wars but I didn't know about the gunboats.

As for the Winter Palace...well, obviously it was looted, but I don't know exactly what details you get told in China and the nature of them. Do you see these as having huge impacts on Chinese culture?

What does China teach its citizens about the Chinese Cultural Revolution?

Which of those do you think had a bigger impact on modern China?



I have unfortunately been reminded of an argument I used to make when I was a teenager on AOL (an old US online service provider) against anarchists in political forums....

The short version of it can be simply stated as....

The advantages of cooperation in pursuit of a goal means that not only is anarchy inherently unstable...but also...all governments trend towards totalitarianism.






I'm not trying to persuade you....I'm sure you and I have gotten a completely different view of history. I was just surprised to hear someone suggest that western interference had a bigger impact on modern China than Mao.

I dont know much about what is taught in mainland schools about cultural revolution. There, its bound to be seen differently. We are not too crazy about communism here.

Western interference in Chinese affairs had profound
effects from the first. One thing setting the stage for the next. Who / what had the greatest efrect is not very
meaningful.

 

[JustOneWay]

Im not saying Chinese are nice people.
Im not a nice person myself.

Im not complaining about ideas.

But if the topic is some sort of equivalence,
we never had gunboats in the Mississippi,
sacked the Smithsonian, or massed troops on
any westerners border nor bombarded from
the sea. Or took sides in your civil war.

No, but the Chinese government likes to invade American homes, business and infastructure with cyber-terrorism.

I wish you would stop trying to tell us China is better than America. It isn't.

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-rejects-claim-it-is-spying-western-critical-infrastructure-2023-05-25/

 

[Laodicean60]

But if the topic is some sort of equivalence,
we never had gunboats in the Mississippi,
sacked the Smithsonian

American gunboats were there to maintain a treaty you signed. The anti-foreigner and anti-Christian (Chinese Christian) rebellion known to us as the Boxer Rebellion initiated the looting of the Winter Palace. Wasn't Germany the main culprit who looted the winter place?

ad gunboats in the Mississippi,
sacked the Smithsonian,

Since this is an American forum I take offense to your generalizations of history. I could easily blame China for Korea and Vietnam. Because China's culture resisted modernization, it was weakened, and Japanese and European imperialism took hold.

Secretary of State Hays and the Open Door Policy: "Hay’s notes of 1899 and 1900 came as the natural culmination of over one hundred years of American involvement in China. After all these years, the United States had concluded that its interests—economic, cultural, and strategic—were best served by the preservation of the Chinese empire. Where Chinese sovereignty had been or would be impaired, within the spheres of influence controlled by outside powers, the United States sought equal treatment of the goods of all nations, presuming such practice to be advantageous to American exports".

The Open Door Policy and the Boxer War: The US and China | AP US History Study Guide from The Gilder Lehrman Institute of American History

By 1899, the United States had become a world power...

ap.gilderlehrman.org

During the second opium war, America was requested to ally but refused. There was a lone wolf:

" The Anglo-French forces insisted on landing at Taku instead of Beitang and escorting the diplomats to Beijing. On the night of 24 June 1859, a small group of British forces blew up the iron obstacles that the Chinese had placed in the Baihe River. The next day, the British forces sought to forcibly sail into the river, and shelled the Taku Forts. Low tide and soft mud prevented their landing, however, and accurate fire from Sengge Rinchen's cannons sank four gunboats and severely damaged two others. American Commodore Josiah Tattnall III, though under orders to maintain neutrality, declared "blood is thicker than water", and provided covering fire to protect the British convoy's retreat".

Second Opium War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Since I'm an American and you accuse America I take offense. We also had a good relationship during WW2 until after the communist party took over afterward.

foreigners played a majot role and ruthlessly exploited
the weakness of China.

Throughout history, your weakness was your ethnic partisanship. Finally, the Manchus prevailed creating the Qing dynasty.

America is to this day involving itself in prlonging
our current civil war.

I'm going to look this up, I didn't know you were having another civil war. Civil wars are your culture but it looks like we Americans are going in the same direction.
BTW sadly, the opium war is now America's fentanyl war.