Sacrifice not the only method of atonement

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by J4Jesus Jesus Christ fulfilled every prophecy in the Old Testament that foretold of the Savoiur who was to come which proves He IS the Messiah

why what did he fulfill?

What didn't He fulfill

Matthew 24:1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the Temple/ierou <2411>, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the Temple/ierou <2411> [of Serpents/Robbers],

 

[simonjandrews]

1) I believe that the words "these," "christian," and "bibles" should have had the first letter capitalized.
2) I believe it is "Hebrew."
3) It assumes facts not in evidence. In fact, when the Dead Sea Scrolls were found it turns out that something like 99.99% of what we have is what was original. There's very few places where translators missed the mark and some have been corrected in subsequent translations (older one's had fewer mss to work with and less knowledge about the culture and times).

I'M AFRAID YOU ARE MISTAKEN, THERE ARE LOTS OF PASSAGES THAT DO NTO CONVEY THE CORRECT MEANING. SOME DELIBRATE AND SOME BECAUSE THE WORDS IN GREEK/ ENGLISH DO NOT SUFFICE.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'M AFRAID YOU ARE MISTAKEN, THERE ARE LOTS OF PASSAGES THAT DO NTO CONVEY THE CORRECT MEANING. SOME DELIBRATE AND SOME BECAUSE THE WORDS IN GREEK/ ENGLISH DO NOT SUFFICE.

Give me a few examples

 

[simonjandrews]

What didn't He fulfill

He didnt fulfill the conditions of the messiah. he didnt usher in a time of universal peace, he did not rebuild the 3rd temple and he was not from the tribe of judah.That my friend means in no uncertain terms that he is not the Jewish Messiah. sorry.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

He didnt fulfill the conditions of the messiah. he didnt usher in a time of universal peace, he did not rebuild the 3rd temple and he was not from the tribe of judah.That my friend means in no uncertain terms that he is not the Jewish Messiah. sorry.

Hey, that is the Jew's problem not mine.

Zechariah 8:23 Thus YHWH of Hosts: In those days take hold do ten men of all languages of the nations, Yea, they have taken hold on the skirt of a Man, a Y@huwdiy , saying: We go with you, for we heard 'Elohiym [is] with You!

Reve 5:5 and one of the elders saith to me, `Weep not; lo, overcome did the Lion, who is of the tribe of Y@huwdah, the root of David, to open the scroll,

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jew.htm
The Etymology of the Word "Jew"

In his classic Facts are Facts, Jewish historian, researcher and scholar Benjamin Freedom writes:

Jesus is referred as a so-called "Jew" for the first time in the New Testament in the 18th century. Jesus is first referred to as a so-called "Jew" in the revised 18th century editions in the English language of the 14th century first translations of the New Testament into English.

 

[simonjandrews]

I wonder if anyone is forgetting one KEY element in all the personal study here.....

JESUS CHRIST HAD TO SHED HIS BLOOD AS A SACRIFICE FOR OUR SIN.
In fact, Jesus prayed in the garden, telling the Father, (essentially) If there be any other way.... let this cup pass from Me...
IF there were any other way to atone for sin, don't you think Christ would have used it when He was struggling with His fate that nite when He was arrested by Roman gaurds?

You can try to study the bible all you want, but JESUS' own example is your proof that BLOOD IS MANDATORY TO REMOVE SIN.

Hebrews (10)? tells us that prior to Christ's death, the sacrificing merely allowed God to "pass over" the sin, it wasn't removed.
[His] Blood fully atones; removing the sin from us.

have you read the start of this post???
No there is other means of atonement, animal sacrifice was not the only method of atonement, repentance was the most important to HaShem, animal sacrifice being the leastimportant.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

have you read the start of this post???
No there is other means of atonement, animal sacrifice was not the only method of atonement, repentance was the most important to HaShem, animal sacrifice being the leastimportant.

You speak with fork tongue LOL>

1 corin 11:23 For I--I received from the Lord that which also I did deliver to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was delivered up, took bread, 24 and having given thanks, He brake, and said, `Take ye, eat ye, this is My body, that for you is being broken/klwmenon <2806>; this do ye--to the remembrance of Me.' 25 In like manner also the cup after the supping, saying, `This cup is the New Covenant in My blood; this do ye, as often as ye may drink [it] --to the remembrance of Me;' [Jeremiah 31]

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/ashes/ashes1.htm
ASHES OF THE RED HEIFER

"For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ASHES OF AN HEIFER sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies to the purifying of the flesh: how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God" (Heb. 9:13-14).

 

[simonjandrews]

Hey, that is the Jew's problem not mine.

Zechariah 8:23 Thus YHWH of Hosts: In those days take hold do ten men of all languages of the nations, Yea, they have taken hold on the skirt of a Man, a Y@huwdiy , saying: We go with you, for we heard 'Elohiym [is] with You!

Reve 5:5 and one of the elders saith to me, `Weep not; lo, overcome did the Lion, who is of the tribe of Y@huwdah, the root of David, to open the scroll,

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jew.htm
The Etymology of the Word "Jew"

In his classic Facts are Facts, Jewish historian, researcher and scholar Benjamin Freedom writes:

Jesus is referred as a so-called "Jew" for the first time in the New Testament in the 18th century. Jesus is first referred to as a so-called "Jew" in the revised 18th century editions in the English language of the 14th century first translations of the New Testament into English.

that was a poor translation shall we have a proper translation now instead of one that is fit for the trash,

Zac 8,23 Thus says the LORD of Hosts: “In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that G~d is with you.’”

See your version has to take out the Jew because then it won't clash with you pagan Idolotary, Hashem is with the Jew in this Passage and not the Xian. the Xian will be one of those who takes hold of the Jews robe, like it or not, all nations will see Torah go forth from Zion.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Zechariah 8:23 Thus YHWH of Hosts: In those days take hold do ten men of all languages of the nations, Yea, they have taken hold on the skirt of a Man, a Y@huwdiy , saying: We go with you, for we heard 'Elohiym [is] with You!

Reve 5:5 and one of the elders saith to me, `Weep not; lo, overcome did the Lion, who is of the tribe of Y@huwdah, the root of David, to open the scroll,

that was a poor translation shall we have a proper translation now instead of one that is fit for the trash,

Zac 8,23 Thus says the LORD of Hosts: &#8220;In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, &#8216;Let us go with you, for we have heard that G~d is with you.&#8217;&#8221;

See your version has to take out the Jew because then it won't clash with you pagan Idolotary, Hashem is with the Jew in this Passage and not the Xian. the Xian will be one of those who takes hold of the Jews robe, like it or not, all nations will see Torah go forth from Zion.

They were "JUDEANS".

Luke 21:21 then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;

 

[simonjandrews]

They were "JUDEANS".

Luke 21:21 then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;

we both know that is not what is meant, you are really scraping the barell.It is talkin about the end of days, how do you know they are gonna be Judeans?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
Hey, that is the Jew's problem not mine.

Zechariah 8:23 Thus YHWH of Hosts: In those days take hold do ten men of all languages of the nations, Yea, they have taken hold on the skirt of a Man, a Y@huwdiy , saying: We go with you, for we heard 'Elohiym [is] with You!

we both know that is not what is meant, you are really scraping the barell.It is talkin about the end of days, how do you know they are gonna be Judeans?

Because my Bro Paul says so.

Luke 21:21 then those in Judea/ioudaia <2449>, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;

1 Thess 2:14 for ye became imitators, brethren, of the assemblies of God that are in Judea/ioudaia <2449> in Christ Jesus, because such things ye suffered, even ye, from your own countrymen, as also they from the Judeans/ioudaiwn <2453> , 15 who did both put to death the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and did persecute us, and God they are not pleasing, and to all men [are] contrary,

Reve 5:5 and one of the elders saith to me, `Weep not; lo, overcome did the Lion, who is of the tribe of iouda <2448/Y@huwdah, the root of David, to open the scroll,

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jew.htm
The Etymology of the Word "Jew"

In his classic Facts are Facts, Jewish historian, researcher and scholar Benjamin Freedom writes:

Jesus is referred as a so-called "Jew" for the first time in the New Testament in the 18th century. Jesus is first referred to as a so-called "Jew" in the revised 18th century editions in the English language of the 14th century first translations of the New Testament into English.

 

[simonjandrews]

Give me a few examples

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.


The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."
In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.
Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.
From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nazianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."

Roman Catholics believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19).
Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3)

The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary -- i.e. confessing one's sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."
In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
Hey, that is the Jew's problem not mine.

Zechariah 8:23 Thus YHWH of Hosts: In those days take hold do ten men of all languages of the nations, Yea, they have taken hold on the skirt of a Man, a Y@huwdiy , saying: We go with you, for we heard 'Elohiym [is] with You!

The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

Yes, I had a discussion with the "Jews" on that and I agree with their translation.

(Young) Psalms 22:16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, lions/0738 'ariy digged/03738 karahat my hands and my feet.

Matt 23:32 and ye--ye fill up the measure of your fathers. 33 `Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the Gehenna?

Matthew 24:1 And having gone forth, Yeshua departed from the Temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple,

Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Yisra'el will be burying Them, in order to CLEANSE/PURIFY the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says 'Adonay Y@hovih .

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.


The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

Btw, we had a thread over here concerning Psalm 22

http://www.christianforums.com/t3203241-the-jews-and-psalm-22-question.html
Jews and psalm 22 question

 

[Fireinfolding]

Yes, I had a discussion with the "Jews" on that and I agree with their translation.

(Young) Psalms 22:16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, lions/0738 'ariy digged/03738 karahat my hands and my feet.

That picture speaks so true to me as He surely comes in the VOLUME of THE BOOK. The book was sprinkled with blood as well as the vessels of the house wasnt it?

Bind up "the testimony" (see below the binding the STONE to the BOOK)

Isaiah 8:16 Bind up ~the testimony~, seal the law among my disciples.

The "testimony"

Rev 10:10 for the testimony of ~Jesus~ IS ~the spirit of prophecy~.

"Bind the testimony" (the Spirit of which) is "Jesus Christ", among my disciples is THE WE

2Peter 1:19 We have also a ~more sure~ word of prophecy

Thou shalt BIND A STONE to THE BOOK (HE is THE STONE the builders REJECTED) HE is THE END of THE LAW


Jerm 51:63 it shall be,when thou hast made an END of reading THIS BOOK, that thou ~shalt bind~ A STONE to ~IT ~and cast it into the midst of Euphrates:

The STONE the builders rejected, FOR LIBERTY Christ made US FREE

Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, LOOSE the FOUR ANGELS which are BOUND in the great river Euphrates.

John 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus,(The STONE) took his garments, and made FOUR PARTS, to EVERY SOLDIER A PART; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout. (Duet 22:12 vesture FOUR parts Psalm 22:18 )

That we might be the righteousness of God in Him

Mat 27:28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.

Rev 19:13 he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.


....~Reasoned with them~ out of the scriptures


Psalm 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of ~THE BOOK~ it is written of ME,


Heb 1:12 as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.


Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do notall go to one place?


Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[simonjandrews]

Yes, I had a discussion with the "Jews" on that and I agree with their translation.

(Young) Psalms 22:16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, lions/0738 'ariy digged/03738 karahat my hands and my feet.

well why follow something when you know it has been corrupted?

 

[djconklin]

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

The LXX was written by Jews, not Christians. Matthew used the LXX which uses the word "parthenos" which means "virgin." There is no evidence that there were any "first century idea of mortals being impregnated by gods." Boslooper wrote a book on the virgin birth that deals partly with this false idea.

 

[djconklin]

I'M AFRAID YOU ARE MISTAKEN, THERE ARE LOTS OF PASSAGES THAT DO NTO CONVEY THE CORRECT MEANING. SOME DELIBRATE AND SOME BECAUSE THE WORDS IN GREEK/ ENGLISH DO NOT SUFFICE

I am sorry, but while it is true that there is no precise one-to-one correspondance between the Hebrew and English (actually between any two languages) it is not true that the English Bibles have "lots of passages" that are in error. Scholars of the Judeo-Christian religion have studied this subject for literally decades and have found no major difference between the MT and the OT in the English. Anyone who has told you otherwise didn't know what they are talking about. Scholars consult Hebrew-English lexicons (in some cases written by Jews) in order to get at the proper meaning of the texts that they are examining/translating (that's how we learned how to translate Hebrew when we were in the Seminary or preparing for it.).

 

[Fireinfolding]

Woman or Virgin work, these are similitudes even to Mary (as one prophesied of the many in regards to the sword to her soul) Paul never even mentioned the virgin birth, he spoke of "the woman" as it pertains to the redemption from the law. Yet Paul transfers a "chaste virgin" TO THEM in regards to becoming corrupted from the simplicity of Christ.

Gal 4:4-5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons

Joseph was "espoused" to Mary it shows the same spiritual truth. Before "they came together" she was with CHILD, its being DELIVERED OF the Child that a SON (Christ) be formed in her after the similitude.

2Cr 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused ~you~ to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (God with us)


Songs 1:3 Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name is as ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins love thee.

Ephes 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.


2Cr 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

Paul makes no deal out of the word virgin, not once did Paul say a thing on it. NOT saying this is untrue. But the Apostle himself transfers the espousal of a virgin to the many (to them) and relates to Christ being made of a woman under the law.

I know others make a big deal over this... change the words, if the original is the original word I dont see why there cannot be a correction and a reevalution concerning the application. It works both ways in my understanding.

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[simonjandrews]

I am sorry, but while it is true that there is no precise one-to-one correspondance between the Hebrew and English (actually between any two languages) it is not true that the English Bibles have "lots of passages" that are in error. Scholars of the Judeo-Christian religion have studied this subject for literally decades and have found no major difference between the MT and the OT in the English. Anyone who has told you otherwise didn't know what they are talking about. Scholars consult Hebrew-English lexicons (in some cases written by Jews) in order to get at the proper meaning of the texts that they are examining/translating (that's how we learned how to translate Hebrew when we were in the Seminary or preparing for it.).

who talkin about English to English, I'm talkin Hebrew to Greek and then English. there are a number of differences which nobody can deny.