Sacrifice not the only method of atonement

[simonjandrews]

Jesus Himself made a reference to the Torah in John 3:14-15:

.And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. (NLT)

In John 8:28,

He says: So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man on the cross, then you will understand that I AM he. I do nothing on my own but say only what the Father taught me. (NLT)

Jesus and His listeners understood that He would be crucified (and blood would be shed).

Is. 53:4-5 says:
Yet it was our weaknesses he carried;
it was our sorrows that weighed him down.
And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God, a punishment for his own sins!
But he was pierced for our rebellion,
crushed for our sins.
He was beaten so we could be whole.
He was whipped so we could be healed.
All of us, like sheep, have strayed away.
We have left God's paths to follow our own.
Yet the LORD laid on him
the sins of us all. (NLT)

ISAIAH 53 THIS IS A VERY POOR TRANSATION. ISAIAH 53 IS THE PASSAGE WHICH EVERYONE PICKES OUT BUT IF YOU LOOK AT IT CLEARLY YOU WILL SEE THAT IT IS TALKING ABOUT ISREAL IN THE SINGULAR, YOU JUST GOT TO READ AROUND IT A BIT.

 

[Tamara224]

The Blood of Christ

11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep." 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. 23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

(Hebrews 9:11-27 NIV).

 

[Fireinfolding]

Where did I say a body had been prepared? It does not say that in Torah so how can these scriptures point to a sacrificial body?

You didnt, ya questioned it in your first post. Simonjandrews these things are throughout scripture and I see Him in them. I get thrilled to see him just about everywhere I look, if that doesnt thrill you what can I say?

Please dont mistake me as one who cares to convince you of something. If ones sees Christ great if not its not given. Relax.

The reasoning is from the TALMUD.

THE CHILD DIED ON THE SEVENTH DAY BECAUSE ON THE 8TH DAY HE WOULD HAVE BEEN BRIT.

BRIT? Im certain you dont mean what first comes to my "mind" (as in British).

NO, ALL THE REFERENCES YOU USE ARE IN THE NEW TESAMENT AND THEN YOU TRY TO PAINT CHRIST INTO THE TORAH WHEN HE IS NOT MENTIONED.

Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Psalm 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge

IN FACT IN THE TORAH IT SPECIFICALLY SAYS THAT HASHEM IS THE NAME OF GOD AND THAT IS HOW HE SHOULD BE MENTIONED THROUGHOUT ALL GENERATIONS. THERE IS NO JESUS MENTIONED THERE.

Thats right, they were calling on the name of the Lord as early as Genesis 4:6 and thats silent there.
Interesting thought that its right after the shedding of blood

Prov 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Wanna guess?

THE CHILD WAS STRICKEN SO THAT THE DECENT COULD BE CLEARLY SEEN.

Thats your opinion and your entitled to it, but its not mine we will have to agree to disgree.

Peace

Firenfolding

 

[angelmom01]

The number 7 is used in scripture many time to show "completion". And I think that it is no wonder the there were 8 souls saved in the ARK and that Christ was raised from the dead on the 8th (FIRST) day of the week.... (or that Jewish boys were circumsized on the 8th day) as the number 8 shows (to me) A NEW CREATION.

So I'm with you Fire, as you well know , Christ many not be mentioned "by name" in the OT but He is everywhere you look, from Adam to Abel to the sacrificial offerings and everywhere inbetween... and beyond. When Christ said that the scriptures testified OF HIM, He sure wasn't kidding. . Good posts!!

 

[Lisa0315]

The number 7 is used in scripture many time to show "completion". And I think that it is no wonder the there were 8 souls saved in the ARK and that Christ was raised from the dead on the 8th (FIRST) day of the week.... (or that Jewish boys were circumsized on the 8th day) as the number 8 shows (to me) A NEW CREATION.

So I'm with you Fire, as you well know , Christ many not be mentioned "by name" in the OT but He is everywhere you look, from Adam to Abel to the sacrificial offerings and everywhere inbetween... and beyond. When Christ said that the scriptures testified OF HIM, He sure wasn't kidding. . Good posts!!

The numeric signature of Christ is 888 as well.

Lisa

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

ISAIAH 53 THIS IS A VERY POOR TRANSATION. ISAIAH 53 IS THE PASSAGE WHICH EVERYONE PICKES OUT BUT IF YOU LOOK AT IT CLEARLY YOU WILL SEE THAT IT IS TALKING ABOUT ISREAL IN THE SINGULAR, YOU JUST GOT TO READ AROUND IT A BIT.

How do they get "pierced/wounded" from that Hebrew word?
I may use an interlinear to help translate that chapter and perhaps we can start a thread on just that chapter somewhere. Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 53:4 Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, And our pains--he hath carried them, And we--we have esteemed him plagued, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 And he is pierced for our transgressions, Bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement of our peace [is] on him, And by his bruise there is healing to us.

chalal (Strong's 02490) occurs 141 times in 131 verses:

02490 chalal {khaw-lal'}
a primitive root [compare 02470]; TWOT - 660,661; v
AV - begin 52, profane 36, pollute 23, defile 9, break 4, wounded 3,
eat 2, slay 2, first 1, gather grapes 1, inheritance 1, began men 1,
piped 1, players 1, prostitute 1, sorrow 1, stain 1, eat as
common things 1; 141
1) to profane, defile, pollute, desecrate, begin
1a) (Niphal)
1a1) to profane oneself, defile oneself, pollute oneself
1a1a) ritually
1a1b) sexually
1a2) to be polluted, be defiled
1b) (Piel)
1b1) to profane, make common, defile, pollute
1b2) to violate the honour of, dishonour
1b3) to violate (a covenant)
1b4) to treat as common
1c) (Pual) to profane (name of God)
1d) (Hiphil)
1d1) to let be profaned
1d2) to begin
1e) (Hophal) to be begun
2) to wound (fatally), bore through, pierce, bore
2a) (Qal) to pierce
2b) (Pual) to be slain
2c) (Poel) to wound, pierce
2d) (Poal) to be wounded
3) (Piel) to play the flute or pipe

 

[Fireinfolding]

The number 7 is used in scripture many time to show "completion". And I think that it is no wonder the there were 8 souls saved in the ARK and that Christ was raised from the dead on the 8th (FIRST) day of the week.... (or that Jewish boys were circumsized on the 8th day) as the number 8 shows (to me) A NEW CREATION.

So I'm with you Fire, as you well know , Christ many not be mentioned "by name" in the OT but He is everywhere you look, from Adam to Abel to the sacrificial offerings and everywhere inbetween... and beyond. When Christ said that the scriptures testified OF HIM, He sure wasn't kidding. . Good posts!!

Praise THE LORD Good to see you around!! You always add such great points Specially in regards to the LORD, love that about cha sis lol

The numeric signature of Christ is 888 as well.

Lisa

Theres another, Amen Lisa

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[winslow]

I dont see the first death in the same way, though Im looking at both of your perspectives that are "running together" and trying to point out one problem (one denying Davids sin had anything to do with the death of his firstborn) the other, "showing this speaks to Christ" thus not of physical death as it pertains to the child itself (though its shown).

Fireinfolding

I'm not denying the death of the son had anything to do with David's sin. I am saying it is not a contradiction of the scriptures that state the son will not die from the sins of the father as you stated. Our sins can have a direct negative impart, even the death of others.

The scripture you quoted is clearly talking about the second death, otherwise every time a son dies from a sinful act of his father the Lord is made out to be a liar.

To what extent David's sin had on the death of his first son with Bathsheba will never be known for sure on this side of the resurrection. What we can deduct from the story is that God is willing to forgive us our sins, but there may still be consequenses of the sin(s). For instance if I live a life of drunkeness (clearly a sin in the bible) I know I can be foregiven if I repent. I may still suffer from the debilitating effects of my former life of drunkeness, such as liver disease.

Hope this clearifies my position.

 

[simonjandrews]

I think your off your rocker........

thanks for your very helpful contribution to the topic, it has been taken into cosideration.Not

 

[simonjandrews]

The Blood of Christ

11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep." 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. 23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

(Hebrews 9:11-27 NIV).

There is not only forgiveness with the shedding of blood that is a christian misconception, look back through this post and you will see that King David was forgiven by HaShem and that there was no mention of the shedding of BLOOD!

 

[simonjandrews]

The Blood of Christ

11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep." 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. 23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

(Hebrews 9:11-27 NIV).

1.Blood is not the sole means of atonement.

There is atonement through repentance (II Samuel 12:13-14, Jonah 3:10, Lev. 26:40-42, Ezek. 18:21-32, 33:11-16), kindness (Prov. 16:6, Daniel 4:24), prayer (Hos. 14:2-3,I Kings 8:46-50, Daniel 9:19), removal of idolatry (Is. 27:9), punishment (Is. 40:1, Lam. 4:22), death (Is. 22:14), flour offerings (Lev. 5:11-13), money (Ex. 30:15), jewelry (Num. 31:50), and incense (Num. 17:11-12).

2. The Book of Lamentations mourns the destruction of the Temple without once mentioning the loss of atonement and the threat of eternal damnation.

3. Tanach teaches through stories, not just law. There is not one story of how a Biblical hero became right with G-d through a blood sacrifice. So much for the "centrality" of blood in Biblical theology.

4. The Prophets consistently down play blood sacrifice and play up repentance. This is not to deny that G-d commands blood sacrifices or that sacrifices will return with the Third Temple. But is blood THE foundation of G-d's favor? No way. It is clear that repentance ranks higher than blood sacrifice for the Prophets EVEN WHEN BOTH ARE COMMANDED.

 

[Lisa0315]

There is not only forgiveness with the shedding of blood that is a christian misconception, look back through this post and you will see that King David was forgiven by HaShem and that there was no mention of the shedding of BLOOD!

The loss of his child was not sacrificial???

 

[Tamara224]

1.Blood is not the sole means of atonement.

There is atonement through repentance (II Samuel 12:13-14, Jonah 3:10, Lev. 26:40-42, Ezek. 18:21-32, 33:11-16), kindness (Prov. 16:6, Daniel 4:24), prayer (Hos. 14:2-3,I Kings 8:46-50, Daniel 9:19), removal of idolatry (Is. 27:9), punishment (Is. 40:1, Lam. 4:22), death (Is. 22:14), flour offerings (Lev. 5:11-13), money (Ex. 30:15), jewelry (Num. 31:50), and incense (Num. 17:11-12).

2. The Book of Lamentations mourns the destruction of the Temple without once mentioning the loss of atonement and the threat of eternal damnation.

3. Tanach teaches through stories, not just law. There is not one story of how a Biblical hero became right with G-d through a blood sacrifice. So much for the "centrality" of blood in Biblical theology.

4. The Prophets consistently down play blood sacrifice and play up repentance. This is not to deny that G-d commands blood sacrifices or that sacrifices will return with the Third Temple. But is blood THE foundation of G-d's favor? No way. It is clear that repentance ranks higher than blood sacrifice for the Prophets EVEN WHEN BOTH ARE COMMANDED.

Blood was required under the Law (the Old Covenant). Jesus' blood was therefore required to fulfill the Law.

All you are doing is taking Scriptures out of context and misapplying them. For what purpose, I am unsure. Why do you wish to deny the sacrifice of Christ? It is so clear and obvious. No one but you is misunderstanding the NT here.

What you are missing, imo, in all of your analysis is the fact that Jesus' sacrifice is applied to all sins, past, present and future. Scripture says He was "slain from the foundation of the world." So, any forgiveness granted in the OT was granted under the blood of Jesus. God forbore with the sins of people prior to Christ's sacrifice. God looks at a person's heart to determine whether there is true repentence, then He applies (sprinkles) the blood which sanctifies (cleanses). Although the people in the OT never lived to see the fulfillment of the promises (of which the OT sacrifices were a forshadowing) they still reap the reward because of their faith. They still, like all of us, gain entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven through Jesus Christ, made possible by Christ's sacrifice.

There wasn't a different way to get forgiven in the OT than there is now. All of the verses you cite which suggest that atonement is found another way only reiterate the truth that God looks to the heart and not to the outward show. A person could offer animal sacrifices till there was a lake of blood and it wouldn't do any good if their heart was not right. The faithfull in OT times relied on the sacrifices for a temporary "covering" of their sins and waited, not know for what, but faithful and seeking God, seeking after righteousness. The Law showed them that righteousness was not possible. Jesus therefore fulfilled the Law, his sacrifice made it possible for our sins to be washed away, not just covered, and so we can now boldly approach the throne of grace, enter the Holy of Holies. Something David, though a man after God's own heart, never did while he was living.

I leave you with some more plain language from Romans:

Romans 3:21-26
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation (sacrifice of atonement) in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I'm not denying the death of the son had anything to do with David's sin.

I wasnt saying you were in particular I mentioned that in regards to the other poster then you came into the conversation. I was showing Jesus Christ to an unbeliever and you came in to help out here lol.
You were both coming from various places. The other was saying Christ was not that Child in regards to the similitude of physical death which portays to me a picture of Christ whose SOUL was an offering for sin and how that prophetically points forward to Christ (Davids sin GOD hath PUT AWAY) but the penalty of death was still administered but to THE CHILD. Jesus is mentioned in Acts as the Holy CHILD. He is the firstborn of THE DEAD. Prophetically theres another Child. Ecc 4:15 I considered all the living which walk under the sun, with the second child that shall stand up in his stead. What you see as the first death was what already reigned and what Christ tasted in regards to tasting death for every man. Death is also regarded as a "fruit" (its tasted) and children are also shown as "fruit" these things are shown in pictures and I am one who sees things as they are "signified" more clearly but I do find articulating them rather difficult. First Child, first death, second child, second death. First covenant (ministry of death) Moses died but his "natural force" was not abated these are spiritually speaking not of carnal truths.

You were pointing out that the death of the body after a ~carnal truth~ is the first death. Im just not coming from the same place as you on it. I see it as it pertains covenantly and we will definately be speaking past each other in regards to these things.

I am saying it is not a contradiction of the scriptures that state the son will not die from the sins of the father as you stated. Our sins can have a direct negative impart, even the death of others.

From that perspective theres no doubt that these things can be, a father can murder his child, an alcoholic can kill a family of five because of his own thing. Im not talking about these sorta of things, neither do I see God speaking on them. Job is a perfect example of losing all his children (and all he had) yet it was not because of some sin in his life that took theirs lives.

I lost a my six year old daughter 2 years ago (I understand this intmately). Looking at it that way I would have to ask "what did I do"? Surely I did, I think its natural to ask. I wasnt given to know, as the Holy Spirit was not convicting me of anything in particular though I heaped all kinds of abuse on myself concerning the tradegy. If there was some sin in my life God was out to get me for (on a thing) I wasnt aware of it. By that I do not mean that I havent sin in such a way Im just saying that to make a point. It perpetuates a negative thought. It did with Job who who spoke of his error being his concern yet it wasnt about what Job did. As Job says we accept the good and the bad from the hand of the Lord and as always "blessed be the name of the Lord". Now Jobs freinds were the ones trying to make it some sin Job did but it was not. In the mist of taking Jobs Judgment away was a picture of Christ as well and who was truly being judged? It was his freinds who Job said were speaking wickedly on Gods behalf while Job sinned not in what he said and spake what was right concerning the Lord (Gods words).

Though He slay me yet will I trust in Him

Davids reactions in the death of His Child are indicators of Christ as his own servants expressively point this out to gain our attention to this.

The scripture you quoted is clearly talking about the second death, otherwise every time a son dies from a sinful act of his father the Lord is made out to be a liar.

Thats your premise and on the basis wherein you judge God on the basis of seeing it otherwise. Your coming from a premise Im not. I dont see it that way at all. You said you see death of the body as the first death, I do not. The soul that sins shall die, Paul said sin revived and he died (that he no longer lived but Christ) As all in Adam (living soul) die, all in Christ (life quickening Spirit) are made alive. Paul was physically alive when he died. Im seeing Davids Child as a similitude of Christ (speaking forward) in that light. Not of physicality (which you see as the first death) as one could live for pleasure and be dead while they live. Speaking of the Soul that sinneth shall die is NOT the BODY after a carnal truth but after a spiritual truth. Twicedead is pointed out in the the epistles I just connect them differently.

I was pointing out your first death thoughts. The penalty of sin being death did not kill Adam in the day He ate it "after the flesh" in regards to a carnal truth but a spiritual truth. Death itelf reigning includes two names (Adam and Moses) covenantally (its also hid in Genesis). Jesus was talking to (physically living) people who had no life in them (all were dead). If the penalty of sin which is death ( and which reigned) and Christ (crucified) took Adams "mortal death" (of physicality as you seem to imply) then immortality as it pertains to PUTTING IT ON (and in regards to what is mortal) would indicate we live in these bodies after a ~carnal truth~ . I'm looking at this according to what its spiritually speaking of after its signification. Its not seeing the death of our bodies as the first death. As it pertains to Christ its spoken of twofold as His life is as a thousand years twicetold and spoken to (as the word made flesh) as God says in Hosea who speaks "in similitudes". Althought a similitude speaks to a substance ( though not in itself) in reality it was of the "word made flesh" Jesus Christ who come in the flesh. In regards to the sacrifice of himself (destroy this temple of which he spake of his body) His ~soul~ was made an offering. These are hard to speak on, Im no expert in words here.

To what extent David's sin had on the death of his first son with Bathsheba will never be known for sure on this side of the resurrection.

Christ IS the Resurrection these things (to me) though maybe not to you speak of HIM.

What we can deduct from the story is that God is willing to forgive us our sins, but there may still be consequenses of the sin(s).

God shows this in Jesus Christ and theres no doubt that if we live after the flesh we shall die but if by the Spirit we put to death the deeds of the body we shall live regarding whats written.

For instance if I live a life of drunkeness (clearly a sin in the bible) I know I can be foregiven if I repent. I may still suffer from the debilitating effects of my former life of drunkeness, such as liver disease.

Hope this clearifies my position.

I AGREE we REAP what we SOW God is not mocked theres no question about this. Thats not what I am examining as it pertains to these things in particular. Im looking to point and show Jesus Christ who is the encompassed Truth of scripture within the many pictures presented. Him who was concealed to Gods glory and to our honour to search out in relation to Gods redemptive plan showing Him within it. He comes in the volume of the book and that is what I was speaking of. How you see something is certainly yours to see. God makes things visible and we can only see something as He affords us to.

Comparing "spiritual things" with spiritual not natural things here

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[simonjandrews]

The loss of his child was not sacrificial???

No, David did not offer the child as a sacrifice, no. HaShem does not take sacrifices from people by force and so I dont see any sacrifice being offered???

 

[Fireinfolding]

The loss of his child was not sacrificial???

That picture is much more clearer looking at Abraham in regards to going to sacrifice Isaac (His Son) by promise (in type).

Although Abraham knows its God who provides the lamb.

Davids Child was just another way of showing that its God striking the Child (and to whom it speaks) and the reason.

HE awakes the Sword against the Son.

Just as Abraham carried the knife.

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[simonjandrews]

That picture is much more clearer looking at Abraham in regards to going to sacrifice Isaac (His Son) by promise (in type).

Although Abraham knows its God who provides the lamb.

Davids Child was just another way of showing that its God striking the Child (and to whom it speaks) and the reason.

HE awakes the Sword against the Son.

Just as Abraham carried the knife.

where does Abraham come into this, there is nowhere where it speaks of Jesus in Torah literally or allergorically.Also why are you guys so fixated with a lamb, a lamb is an animal and Jesus was a man, these two things are not the same thing they will never be the same thing they do not represent anything other than what they are in the physical. Is this like a form of mysticism which you guys practice????

 

[Tamara224]

where does Abraham come into this, there is nowhere where it speaks of Jesus in Torah literally or allergorically.Also why are you guys so fixated with a lamb, a lamb is an animal and Jesus was a man, these two things are not the same thing they will never be the same thing they do not represent anything other than what they are in the physical. Is this like a form of mysticism which you guys practice????

Really?! Or are you just baiting? But, just FYI...

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

Also, throughout the book of Revelation, Jesus is referred to as the Lamb.

Jesus is the Passover Lamb, the shedding of His blood and the sprinkling of it on the doorposts of our hearts has caused death to pass over us!

It might be considered a form of mysticism. There's no doubt that Christianity involves the mystical. It's also a form of symbolism and metaphor, but it goes deeper than that.

 

[Fireinfolding]

NO, ALL THE REFERENCES YOU USE ARE IN THE NEW TESAMENT AND THEN YOU TRY TO PAINT CHRIST INTO THE TORAH WHEN HE IS NOT MENTIONED.

You know... this is something I think we all ask. Been looking at this searching it out.

Still looking (even now) as to why if this be true. The connection I see again pertains to sins and Him.

Jesus says the scriptures testify of Him (and elsewhere) as He comes in the volume of the book (to me anyway) so why so elusive? So I was lead to consider the following.

To me this is speaking prophetically of Christ who was MADE SIN (for us) and contextually its speaking of this and one blotted out of his book. Him being made sin was so that we might be the righteousness of God in Him. But Im seeing God who knows all things pretermined to CONCEAL His Son.


This speaks of blotted out of the book which was written.

Exodus 32:32 And ~it came to pass on~ the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.


Exodus 32:33 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.



Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which ~thou hast~ written.


Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever (for ~all have~) hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.



2Cr 5:21 For HE hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Isaiah 49:16 ((( Behold ))), I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; ~thy walls ~are continually before me. John 20:25


The righteousness without the law Romans speaks of through the perfect sacrifice (to which) the law and prophets speak of Jesus Christ (in types, shadows etc)



Gal 3:13 answers to Duet 23


Gal 3:13 Christ hath ~redeemed us~ from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

God just conceals a thing.This has me further curious

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Fireinfolding]

Simonjandrews,

For some odd reason I want to look at your last post on the atonement. Not sure if this evening or by tommorrow I'll share what I find

Jesus did say in relation to the destruction of the temple (the one he spoke of was in relation to His body).

Let me look these up and see what emerges.

Peace

Fireinfolding