Sacramental Grace makes no sense from what I see

[ArmyMatt]

Taking his own time to council married couples in need, working to bring kids from families of no faith to kids time at church, holding a class on parenting kids God's way on his own time, running a food pantry, evangelizing and sharing the Gospel whenever he can.

Do these qualify for good?

no, I mean in general. what is "good?" and I am going somewhere with this.

 

[Markie Boy]

It really seems you are asking the Eastern Orthodox here to go against one of their favorite slogans, "We know where the Holy Spirit is, we do not know where He is not".

It has been a consistent theme of the EO not to deny that other Christians outside their Church might have the Holy Spirit, the fruit of the other spirit etc. but rather to speak about things that help nurture the Faith from the standpoint of their own Tradition.

That is very well said. But that's not how I started.

My real question was if sacraments are a channel for so much grace - why can't we see such a large difference in those that participate in them?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

That is very well said. But that's not how I started.

My real question was if sacraments are a channel for so much grace - why can't we see such a large difference in those that participate in them?

Like I mentioned before the parable of the sower fits (Mathew 13). Written about receiving the Gospel in general but also fits this more specific area. The parable of the weeds from the same chapter also fits.

These things I'm sure would be understood "energetically", as a a person or two has already alluded to.

 

[ArmyMatt]

My real question was if sacraments are a channel for so much grace - why can't we see such a large difference in those that participate in them?

because that might not be for us to see.

 

[Markie Boy]

Good answers. I struggle with this because of my own personal experiences mostly, and trying to make sense of things.

I have people going to Mass regularly, sort of looking at those who don't like they should. But I'm quite often seeing better behavior and treatment from those that don't go.

Makes not much sense. But at that I'll let it go.

 

[zippy2006]

I think there have been some good answers too. I would add one thing. Consider the case of the person who is properly disposed to receive the sacrament. In this person the grace of the sacrament may act in a mysterious way. This is because grace works on the deep inner regions of man's being--his heart--and the effects of this may take a long time to manifest outwardly to strangers, or even to himself.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Good answers. I struggle with this because of my own personal experiences mostly, and trying to make sense of things.

I have people going to Mass regularly, sort of looking at those who don't like they should. But I'm quite often seeing better behavior and treatment from those that don't go.

Makes not much sense. But at that I'll let it go.

seriously, from before, how do you define "good?" and I am going somewhere with this question.

 

[Markie Boy]

OK - define good. We know scripture says there is none good, but God.

This side of Heaven I see good as those doing good for others, especially when they get nothing in return.

But I'm open - where are you going with it?

 

[Aussie Pete]

I can't fathom how someone can see sacraments as works. We simply submerge someone in water, and God adopts that person as an heir. We anoint them with chrism, and the Holy Spirit descends and dwells in that person. We bring bread and wine and God transforms them into His own body and blood. We anoint with oil and God provides healing of soul and body. A Bishop lays his hands on someone, and God makes that man a priest, sharing in the high priesthood of Christ. We lay crowns on the heads of a man and woman and God joins them into one flesh. These are miracles, not works. Who could boast about their role in this? Even as a priest, I know that my role in all of these is nothing without the grace of God filling the sacrament. If anything, sacraments are the very definition of good works that God prepared for us that we should walk in them. God makes them sacraments, we simply receive the gift with thanksgiving. We must actively embrace the grace given with faith and love, and in that sense it is not magic, but it is God who fills these actions with grace, not us, so it can never be a work.

Let me reply as best I can
1. God adopts a believer when he accepts Christ as Saviour. You do not have to be baptised in order to be born again.
2. You will be aware that protestants generally reject the concept of transubstantiation.
3. Physical healing is not dependent on being anointed with oil. I know what James said. I was healed long before I read the book of James and no anointing oil was involved. However, in some cases we anoint with oil. It depends on how we are led by the Spirit.
4. Healing of the soul requires more than anointing with oil. I can expound that if you wish.
5. Most protestants (including me) believe that all Christians are priests.
6. I appreciate your point of view and I accept that you are entirely sincere. From my point of view, I am unable to concur with sacramental theology.

 

[Aussie Pete]

grace, Who Christ is, the Cross, and the Resurrection are all doctrinal.

I believed the whole apostles creed before I was born again. It meant nothing to me. It was the same as I believed that Julius Caesar was a Roman Emperor. That is what I mean by doctrine not saving anyone.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I believed the whole apostles creed before I was born again. It meant nothing to me. It was the same as I believed that Julius Caesar was a Roman Emperor. That is what I mean by doctrine not saving anyone.

And that is the problem, that view is different from amemesis that is used to describe the eucharist. This was one of the few little nuggets I got from taking Greek when I was still a Protestant, going to Fuller Theological Seminary. Amemesis is not just remembering something, but it is re-experiencing it as it was in the past. The closest example I can think of is a negative example of a Veteran with PTSD as having a flashback from the battle field when they hear a loud noise, or on the positive side of things a person who sees a memento of an occasion with their long lost love or relative has a positive memory of nostalgia that changes their mood from sad etc. to being happy as they remember in a day dream like memory of that favorite event from long ago.


There was a rare verb form in Greek that had that kind of connotation, it basically referred to a past event that continues on forward to change the present.



I would counter these objections of yours can actually be interpreted as viewing the Bible from a rationalistic framework of the Renaissance and the Enlightenment!

 

[ArmyMatt]

I believed the whole apostles creed before I was born again. It meant nothing to me. It was the same as I believed that Julius Caesar was a Roman Emperor. That is what I mean by doctrine not saving anyone.

and a Jehovah's Witness can say the same thing. if doctrine doesn't save, you'd have to assume the JW is saved if he claimed a born again experience.

 

[LizaMarie]

Markie Boy: You've been given such good answers here and I don't know anything. But I believe in the Sacraments, it's why I returned to the Lutheran Church from nondenominationalism and why I am inquiring into Orthodoxy and studied Catholicism. I believe in regenerational baptism. The Baptist minister you mentioned has been baptized(I presume) in a proper Trinitarian Baptism (I presume) so he received a sacrament even if he doesn't believe he did. He received the Holy spirit. (I know this is an Orthodox forum so please correct me if I'm wrong.) The Bible says Baptism saves you in the New Testament(can't remember where now will research later.) I wonder if he would be doing the things he is doing if not for that. Of course we have free will and we can deny our baptisms and fall away.

 

[nutroll]

Let me reply as best I can
1. God adopts a believer when he accepts Christ as Saviour. You do not have to be baptised in order to be born again.
2. You will be aware that protestants generally reject the concept of transubstantiation.
3. Physical healing is not dependent on being anointed with oil. I know what James said. I was healed long before I read the book of James and no anointing oil was involved. However, in some cases we anoint with oil. It depends on how we are led by the Spirit.
4. Healing of the soul requires more than anointing with oil. I can expound that if you wish.
5. Most protestants (including me) believe that all Christians are priests.
6. I appreciate your point of view and I accept that you are entirely sincere. From my point of view, I am unable to concur with sacramental theology.

If I believe that a seat belt or a motorcycle helmet is unnecessary, will that belief protect me in a crash? If I don't believe that I need to eat my vegetables or exercise, will that belief make my body healthy? Rejecting the sacraments is rejecting the grace contained therein. You may believe that you are doing just fine without them, but that kind of belief is only 500 years old. The Church from the beginning has been sacramental. Even the vast majority of heretics believed in sacraments. God can heal our bodily afflictions, He can forgive our sins, He can do all sorts of things outside of the sacraments, but that is no reason to deny what He does in the sacraments. What the sacraments give us is more than we will find outside of them. But the only way to really understand that is to live it.

 

[nicholas123]

So I understand the ideas - but in reality the idea of receiving grace thru sacraments makes no sense.

I seem to see so much un-Christian behavior from many that won't miss their weekly sacraments. And on the flip side I see such wonderful charity from some that almost never participate in sacraments.

If the idea is someone can receive wrongly and it makes things worse I guess I can see that, but then those that don't participate hardly any sacramentally, yet are so charitable - how does any of this support that there is anything more available thru the sacraments that without?

Sorry - can you tell what I am working with today?

I think the problem is you had a false idea that the sacraments were magic spells that do not require an internal repentance. There is also the problem of believing grace is of a single shade, when you say there is nothing to be had in the sacramental experience. Grace is indeed everywhere, and saints do see it permeating all things, but every particular thing or situation interacts with it differently so as to give different fruits. Grace is like a white light and the heart of men are like prisms, some prisms are more polished than others such that interacting with little grace produces a beautiful array of graceful shades, different prisms have different main shades, and some people just need a little bit of polishing.
Comparing two different people leads us nowhere.

 

[Not David]

I think the problem is you had a false idea that the sacraments were magic spells that do not require an internal repentance. There is also the problem of believing grace is of a single shade, when you say there is nothing to be had in the sacramental experience. Grace is indeed everywhere, and saints do see it permeating all things, but every particular thing or situation interacts with it differently so as to give different fruits. Grace is like a white light and the heart of men are like prisms, some prisms are more polished than others such that interacting with little grace produces a beautiful array of graceful shades, different prisms have different main shades, and some people just need a little bit of polishing.
Comparing two different people leads us nowhere.

Wow! An Orthodox from Uruguay.

 

[Markie Boy]

I'm not overly attracted to protestant theology, and it would be harder for me to go back there than push forward with my Catholic struggles.

I guess I wonder - I have experienced as much personal change and conforming to Christ thru reading the Word, actually more, than participating in the sacraments.

I see many that participate in sacraments yet remain unchanged (still drink, party, etc). I have seen far fewer that delve into the Word and remain unchanged.

It seems like such an either-or deal - so few Catholics read scripture, and prot's don't have sacraments.

Sorry - have not made it to an EO parish yet. I come here to discuss as I have grown to respect many here, it's the closest thing I have to an Orthodox Church. Thank you guys.