Sabbath?

[visionary]

what about the post!?
Why did Paul compare his judaisitc existence, to that of the pagans?

Acts 26:5
They have known me for a long time and can testify, if they are willing, that according to the strictest sect of our religion, I lived as a Pharisee.

 

[addo]

James 2:10 says if one messes up one part of the law they mess up the whole law. I guess you just throw it out.

Now that someone brings this passage up, I'll make a short note.

James 2:8-11
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.​

I always thought it was interesting the fact that James uses this ("For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.") as an argument for the keeping of the commandments. That is, "He who said 'do not commit adultery' also said, 'do not murder' now if you do not commit adultery but do commit murder you have become a lawbreaker", so brothers [I continue], make sure to keep the commandments; this is what basically James is saying.

I always found it interesting, as I said, that he uses it for the keeping of the commandments and not really against them.

 

[Frogster]

Acts 26:5
They have known me for a long time and can testify, if they are willing, that according to the strictest sect of our religion, I lived as a Pharisee.

Well who does not know he was a pharisee?

Beholdeth...1

13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it.

Beholdeth..2

5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, [3] blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ

 

[from scratch]

Now that someone brings this passage up, I'll make a short note.

James 2:8-11
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
​

I always thought it was interesting the fact that James uses this ("For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.") as an argument for the keeping of the commandments. That is, "He who said 'do not commit adultery' also said, 'do not murder' now if you do not commit adultery but do commit murder you have become a lawbreaker", so brothers [I continue], make sure to keep the commandments; this is what basically James is saying.

I always found it interesting, as I said, that he uses it for the keeping of the commandments and not really against them.

How does this infer that we should keep the commandments? I see it as James giving an example of breaking the law which makes one a law breaker/sinner.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Now that someone brings this passage up, I'll make a short note.

James 2:8-11
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.​

I always thought it was interesting the fact that James uses this ("For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.") as an argument for the keeping of the commandments. That is, "He who said 'do not commit adultery' also said, 'do not murder' now if you do not commit adultery but do commit murder you have become a lawbreaker", so brothers [I continue], make sure to keep the commandments; this is what basically James is saying.

I always found it interesting, as I said, that he uses it for the keeping of the commandments and not really against them.

The consequence for breaking any one of God's 10 commandments are the same. That is James point. Death is the result of sin. There is no big sin or little sin. He does endorce the keeping of the commandments as you rightly said, in fact he used to commandments which show love to fellow men as an illustration. And people believe they can not keep these commandments and yet show love to their neighbours.

 

[from scratch]

The consequence for breaking any one of God's 10 commandments are the same. That is James point. Death is the result of sin. There is no big sin or little sin. He does endorce the keeping of the commandments as you rightly said, in fact he used to commandments which show love to fellow men as an illustration. And people believe they can not keep these commandments and yet show love to their neighbours.

No James is not endorsing any of the commandments. He is doing the same thing Paul does.His point is if you break any commandment you are guity of breaking the whole law. It seems you are saying that James would have to name them all. You do not understand illustrations or speech props?

 

[Frogster]

The consequence for breaking any one of God's 10 commandments are the same. That is James point. Death is the result of sin. There is no big sin or little sin. He does endorce the keeping of the commandments as you rightly said, in fact he used to commandments which show love to fellow men as an illustration. And people believe they can not keep these commandments and yet show love to their neighbours.

Try to see it through history.

All of our past, and present sins, were already judged.

3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

What that means is, our old self was already judged, but we are in a new era, a new creation, already rasied up, so when the law arouses sin in the flesh, just tell yourself, it is the old creation, God is not..

REIMPUTING judgement to us, we are already in the future, stop looking at the flesh, that is the law doing that, binding your conscience.

That is why Paul equtes sin, law and flesh together. Tis the past...

 

[visionary]

 

[addo]

...

Interesting.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Try to see it through history.

All of our past, and present sins, were already judged.

3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

What that means is, our old self was already judged, but we are in a new era, a new creation, already rasied up, so when the law arouses sin in the flesh, just tell yourself, it is the old creation, God is not..

REIMPUTING judgement to us, we are already in the future, stop looking at the flesh, that is the law doing that, binding your conscience.

That is why Paul equtes sin, law and flesh together. Tis the past...

Actually Paul says that the carnal mind (in the flesh) is not subject to the law of God. Romans 8:7 so that seems the opposite of what you are saying. Also, the commandment are holy just and good which means it cannot be equated to the flesh which is not holy, not just and not good. The good you want to do in the flesh you cannot because you are bound by the law of sin. Paul says that the law of sin is preventing him from keeping the law of God in his mind and it is Jesus who delivers him from this law of sin.

 

[Johnnz]

Two Trees, Two Ways of Knowing

There were two trees in the garden, the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Humanity was to life from the tree of life, an unbroken relationship with the Godhead. Only that tree appears again in the last chapter of revelation in the renewed creation. Originally humanity did not know about good and evil, not had a conscience.

From the Fall onwards humanity has drawn from the second tree. The first response of the couple was fear and vulnerability Gen 3:10 I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid." Relationship with God, each other (blame) and creation (work, childbirth and the relationship between the couple became distorted. Categories of right and wrong, law, and self effort to deserve God’s favour predominate.

Initially humanity was created to share the divine life of the Trinity. This was an act of grace. We did not ask to be created; it was God’s desire to have us as his images overseeing creation together with Him. The Fall broke that relationship at every level.

Until Jesus and Pentecost all life was lived out of the good vs evil framework, the flesh. But through Jesus we now live in the Spirit, from an indwelling as our permanent relationship with our Father. We have a new heart, one that expresses the indwelling life of Jesus, what Jesus Himself referred to an inward well of life: John 7:38-39 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Or elsewhere as life in all its fullness (John 10:10).

Law belongs to the flesh which brings death. We are to live in the Spirit as a gift. Living as a Christian is not about what we can do, but out of who we now are in Christ. New life flows from within, creating desire to please God. Law can never achieve that. Life in the Spirit is characterised by thankfulness, freedom from guilt and condemnation, inner transformation, and rest in the finished work of Christ. The flesh requires us to perform disciplines (read the bible, pray, strive etc) and is characterised by frequent guilt, feelings of inadequacy and insecurity about one’s standing with God.

The Fall exposed us to a new and wrong way of knowing. We were created by grace, God’s favour and were to live in the total security of a love relationship. This is the message that the NT writers understood and why they consistently stated that since Christ everything has changed.


John
NZ

 

[Frogster]

Actually Paul says that the carnal mind (in the flesh) is not subject to the law of God. Romans 8:7 so that seems the opposite of what you are saying. Also, the commandment are holy just and good which means it cannot be equated to the flesh which is not holy, not just and not good. The good you want to do in the flesh you cannot because you are bound by the law of sin. Paul says that the law of sin is preventing him from keeping the law of God in his mind and it is Jesus who delivers him from this law of sin.

He did equate it to the flesh, why this?

5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

More..why does he say sin lies dead, apart from law?

8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.

The point was, he did equate sin, law and flesh.

More..

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

See, he equated sin, law and flesh, to run hand in hand. Walk in the Spirit, no law sin and flesh. Lets go by the whole of the teaching shall we.

 

[Bananna]

If you want anybody to read this post you need to clean it up.

re trying
Paul the apostle most misquoted and misread

Col 2:8 Be careful that you don't let anyone rob you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Messiah.

Paul's teaching against being bound up by manmade laws is more often used to negate Torah and promote "each man doing what is right in his own eyes". One can never remove a verse from its context if they want the truth.

Col 2:13 you were dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh. He made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses

Trespasses are the breaking of a commandment. Notice they are calling people uncircumcized in the flesh who are not necessarily with or without a foreskin because the bretheren were a mixed multitude... It basically tells us we are starting with a clean slate... not that we have no slate.

If all God's laws were done away with... we would be unable to sin. That would be chaos. However Christ affirmed the whole Torah when he confirmed we were to love God and our neighbor as our selves

Col 2:14 wiping out the handwriting in ordinances which was against us; and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross;

We see Paul teaching that what was nailed to the cross was in fact the ordinances against us... not Torah, but rather the price of our death, remitted by the Author of life dying on our cross for us. It is not a liscense to continue break God's laws. It is not an excuse for those that wish not to learn and keep God's laws. Seriously the only Law seems to bother people is the keeping of God's Sabbaths... all the rest they consider moral.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath,

We see Paul telling us not to let another judge us... in context...(col 2:8) not to be judged by human laws about how we must keep every single part of each feast, in and out of Israel by man made laws that were too great a burden, not even the Israelites could keep them. New moon Sabbaths alone had so much controversy even as it does today:
How to determine the beginning of God's Calendar
How a gentile is allowed to keep a Seventh Day Sabbath?
Can gentiles keep Sabbath in Israel if they are not in a Jewish home?

The list is extensive and argumentative. They are shadows that teach us about what is to come...(they... the human traditions) they are not to be an argument that keeps people from loving one another and meeting to study Torah. Man's ways were never meant to negate God's commands

Col 2:17which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Messiah's.
Col 2:18Let no one rob you of your prize by a voluntary humility and worshipping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

The humility would refer to certain man made traditions that were "shows of humility" but really just showing off; vainly they caused one to be puffed up rather than humble.
Angels means messengers. It's debatable as to whether Paul is using the term to refer to the status of being a Jew...So contextually one might say Angels means... don't worship being a born Jew or Don't over venerate those bringing the gospel or Don't be seeking favors from Angelic beings/ministering spirits. The latter doesn't seem plausible for a number of reasons. It would seem more consistent to say again... don't let man made practices rule over you... but rather let God's Commands be your guide

Col 2:20 If you died with Messiah from the elements of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to ordinances,

Col 2:21"Don't handle, nor taste, nor touch"

Seriously, I've seen many more people trying to use their own moral code to subject believers to manmade rules... Don't drink alcohol, don't use any bible but the "name their favorite", men don;t where kilts, women don't wear pants.... don't dance, don't refuse to eat pork...etc.
Now what human am I going to let tell me to not keep Sabbath and appointed times when according to colosians, I'm not to let another judge me. Yeshua is my teacher and Judge... him I follow.

I don't begrudge anyone meeting to study Torah, Prophets and writings inspired by God any day including Sunday. It's just another man made custom. For some it will be of help and for some it will make them puffed up only God can judge. It's not like keeping the Seventh Day Sabbath only can save them.

Two things Yeshua says:

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Mat 5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Paul upheld this teaching and was most definitely following Torah in freedom. The Aleph Tav teaches us:

Psalm 119:45 I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts.

Torah is true freedom. Sabbath on the Seventh Day is true rest. God's promises for Sabbath keepers are worth having. The blessings are worth receiving.

When Yeshua says he is the alpha and omega = Aleph Tav = Psalm 119 he is claiming to be the Word made flesh... the living Torah.
Bananna

 

[Bananna]

Now that someone brings this passage up, I'll make a short note.

James 2:8-11
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
​

I always thought it was interesting the fact that James uses this ("For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.") as an argument for the keeping of the commandments. That is, "He who said 'do not commit adultery' also said, 'do not murder' now if you do not commit adultery but do commit murder you have become a lawbreaker", so brothers [I continue], make sure to keep the commandments; this is what basically James is saying.

I always found it interesting, as I said, that he uses it for the keeping of the commandments and not really against them.

The teaching on adultery and murder he is referencing here would also include the inference of not thinking of women not your wife as objects of gratification and not murdering someones image or name by gossiping about them.

It's broken down in other scriptures of who will not inherit the kingdom of God... Those who bare false witness, those who practise, pagan fertility rites, gossips, etc.

The thing with teaching precept upon precept is that Sabbath keeping teaches one to control the speach and the thoughts, therefore it is a moral discipline that precedes the teaching of Thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not bear false witness, thou shalt not commit adultery.

But those that do not practise Sabbath keeping... wouldn't usually preceive that.
bananna

 

[from scratch]

Paul the apostle most misquoted and misread.]Col 2:8 Be careful that you don't let anyone rob you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Messiah.
Paul's teaching against being bound up by manmade laws is more often used to negate Torah and promote "each man doing what is right in his own eyes" One can never remove a verse from its context. If one does one could prove all sorts of unbiblical ideas Col 2:13 You were dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh. He made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, Trespasses are the breaking of a commandment. If laws were done away with... we would be unable to sin. However Christ affirmed the whole Torah when he confirmed we were to love God and our neighbor as our selves Col 2:14wiping out the handwriting in ordinances which was against us; and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross; We see Paul teaching that what was nailed to the cross was in fact the ordinances against us... Not Torah, but rather the price of our death, remitted by the Author of life dying on our cross for us Col 2:16Let no man therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon or Shabbat We see Paul telling us not to let other's judge us... in context... not to be judged by human laws about how we must keep every single part of each feast, in and out of Israel manmade laws were too great a burden, not even the Israelites could keep them. New moon Sabbaths alone had so much controversy even as it does today how to sight the new moon in Jerusalem how to determine the beginning of God's calendar if a Gentile is allowed to keep a Seventh day Sabbath in Israel if they are not in a Jewish home... The list is extensive and argumentative. They are shadows that teach us about what is to come... they are not to be an argument that keeps people from loving one another and meeting to study Torah. Man's ways were never meant to negate God's commands Col 2:17which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Messiah's. Col 2:18Let no one rob you of your prize by a voluntary humility and worshipping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mindThe humility would refer to certain man made traditions that were "shows of humility" but really just showing off; vainly they caused one to be puffed up rather than humble. Angels means messengers. It's debatable as to whether Paul is using the term to refer to the status of being a Jew...So contextually one might say Angels means... don't worship being a born Jew or Don't over venerate those bringing the gospel or Don't be seeking favors from Angelic beings/ministering spirits. The latter doesn't seem plausible for a number of reasons. It would seem more consistent to say again... don't let man made practices rule over you... but rather let God's Commands be your guide Col 2:20If you died with Messiah from the elements of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to ordinances, Col2:21"Don't handle, nor taste, nor touch" Seriously, I've seen many more people trying to use their own moral code to subject believers to manmade rules... Don't drink alcohol, don't use any bible but the "name their favorite", men don;t where kilts, women don't wear pants.... don't dance, don't refuse to eat pork...etc...... Now what human am I going to let tell me to not keep Sabbath and appointed times I don't begrudge anyone meeting to study Torah, Prophets and writings inspired by God any day including Sunday. It's just another man made custom. For some it will be of help and for some it will make them puffed up only God can judge. It's not like keeping the Seventh Day Sabbath can save them.
Two things Yeshua says Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill Paul upheld this teaching and was most definitely following Torah in freedom. The Aleph Tav teaches us Psalm 119:45 I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts Torah is true freedom. Sabbath on the Seventh Day is true rest. God's promises for Sabbath keepers are worth having. The blessings are worth receiving.

Here you go.Now it is readable. all I did was use the delete feature to remove the tags brought in with your c&p. I might have also deleted some punctuation not on purpose. This program does that with c & p jobs sometimes.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

........................We see Paul teaching that what was nailed to the cross was in fact the ordinances against us... not Torah, ....................

GE:

This is open, unmistakable, CONTRADICTING the very thing Paul states.

WHY, I cannot see why!

Jesus Christ encompasses ALL Law and laws of God in his own Self "by the sacrifice of Himself" --- ESPECIALLY 'Torah'. THIS, Colossians 2:14, is the establishment and confirmation of, and Yea and Amen to God's Law, in its very annulment being resurrected as from the dead IN CHRIST.

Can't you see it? I wonder not that you don't; I had to be taught the same DIFFICULT lesson myself. So I KNOW! Nevertheless, TRY see it! It will not disappoint you.

 

[visionary]

The teaching on adultery and murder he is referencing here would also include the inference of not thinking of women not your wife as objects of gratification and not murdering someones image or name by gossiping about them.

It's broken down in other scriptures of who will not inherit the kingdom of God... Those who bare false witness, those who practise, pagan fertility rites, gossips, etc.

The thing with teaching precept upon precept is that Sabbath keeping teaches one to control the speach and the thoughts, therefore it is a moral discipline that precedes the teaching of Thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not bear false witness, thou shalt not commit adultery.

But those that do not practise Sabbath keeping... wouldn't usually preceive that.
bananna

amen... restraints constraints us..

 

[visionary]

GE:

This is open, unmistakable, CONTRADICTING the very thing Paul states.

WHY, I cannot see why!

Jesus Christ encompasses ALL Law and laws of God in his own Self "by the sacrifice of Himself" --- ESPECIALLY 'Torah'. THIS, Colossians 2:14, is the establishment and confirmation of, and Yea and Amen to God's Law, in its very annulment being resurrected as from the dead IN CHRIST.

Can't you see it? I wonder not that you don't; I had to be taught the same DIFFICULT lesson myself. So I KNOW! Nevertheless, TRY see it! It will not disappoint you.

Yeshua truly does encompass all the Laws of God in Himself and in whom we are to emulate...

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally Posted by Bananna
.................
The thing with teaching precept upon precept is ........................
bananna


GE:

...teaching precept upon precept is... the drunken priests' way.

 

[Frogster]

Yeshua truly does encompass all the Laws of God in Himself and in whom we are to emulate...

Then why does scripture, clearly point us to Abe's children, and use Abe to show it is not about Moses?

Paul actually used the father of all, to show that we are not in the Mosic cov.

Abe did not have sabbath.