Sabbath?

[from scratch]

For example, a law which tells you what type of animal sacrifice to offer for a particular sin is not a moral law, it doesn't tell you what is right or wrong. That law tells you what you must do to get that sin forgiven. The sin itself would have been defined by another law.

Now wait a minute there. If the laws regarding punishment have been nailed to the cross (are no more) and you can't be punished why bother seeking forgivness by any means?

 

[from scratch]

Honestly I see no consistency in what you are saying. A commandment of God is just that. Do you keep all of the OT laws? Or are you picking and choosing? Which Covenant are you under? New or Old?

That is because there is no consistency in what he says and believes as I have been pointing out.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Well maybe I read you wrong. I read above that you say adultery is wrong for a woman. Is this not a moral issue as well as gender issue the way you state it? The 4th is amoral like the 3 preceeding it. In the sense you define moral violation of any of the commandments would be immoral. This is backing into something that does not exist. Like sneaking in the back door and saying you came in the front door.

Adultery is wrong for both women and men. It is not a gender issue. I used woman to hope to make a reference to the woman caught in adultery who was brought to Jesus, without actually making the reference. I am saying that the law to stone a woman caught in adultery does not say adultery is wrong, it only states what the penalty for the sin is. The commandments "thou shalt not commit adultery" is what says that adultery is wrong. Moral laws are laws which speaks about what is right or wrong.

 

[RibI]

Excuse me, but why didn't Paul want the Galatians under Sabbath?

Don't you ever get tired of spewing the same tired old misrepresentation of that scripture? You have worn that thing out.

If you want to be taken seriously why don't you find the scriptures that explain when and why the Sabbath was changed or done away.

Oh that's right there aren't any.

 

[from scratch]

"The Sabbath was MADE for man and not man for the sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

Wonerdful scripture. The intended meaning by you is out of context centered on nothing more than the words. The sabbath came into being in Exodus 16 whrere it makes its appearance only to Isreal. The sabbath is not given to the Gentile, goyim. Ask any Jew. This is made adamant in Duet 5:2-5.

The majority of professing Christians today believe that the Sabbath only began when the ten commandments were given at Sinai. Is this true? No, and we can give solid, clear Bible evidence that the Seventh day Sabbath was in effect before the ten commandments. Notice that Jesus said the Sabbath was MADE. When was it made?

Genesis 2:2-3 .....'And on the seventh day, God ended His work which He had made, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it; because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made.'

No you can'tby the Bible. Notice that God blessed the seventh dayand not the Sabbath.

The word rested indicates periodic rest and not permanent rest as the word shabat indicates. The word shabat is translated as cease in Hosea 2:11 which is closer to its real meaning. It really means more like a cease and desist court order which means do not do again as in cease or stop. The word shabat is a verb and not a noun. Here is a Jewsih version of the same scripture:

By the seventh day Go completed His work which He had done and He abstained on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Tanach, Stone ed.

Notice the highlighted which corepond to ended and rested as you quoted above.

Why are there not just six days in a week? Because after the six days of creation work, God MADE another day, the seventh day. Now if God wanted to rest after His work of creating this earth, He could have done so without giving us another day. So why did He give us another day? Take another look at what Jesus said above. He MADE the sabbath day for man! Do you see this clear connection? Jesus said that the sabbath was made and He was pointing us back to the creation week where we can see the sabbath being made.

The only place we get the 7 day weekly cycle from is the creation week in the Bible. We can see months and years in the solar system that God put in place, but with the 7 day weekly cycle, we can only see it in the Word of God. Now what does this mean? It means we have to put our faith in God and His Word. I wonder if God intended it this way, so that He could see who were His true followers! Those who keep the seventh day sabbath of creation are putting their complete trust and faith in the Word of God.

No they are following part of the law given only to the Israelites.

Now let's take a look at the 4th commandment, and we will see a clear reference to the seventh day of creation being the sabbath day.

"Six days shalt thou labour and do all thy work, but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God; in it thou shalt not do any work ... For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is and rested the seventh day, wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it." (Exodus 20)

The word wherefore is a word the denotes a reason for making the sabbath. I have already stated that the sabbath made its first appearance in Ex 16. Notice also that the Lord rested - desisted from creation on what day? The seventh day or the sabbath day? God also swore that the Isrealites would never enter His (God's) rest in Ps 95:11 - Unto whom I sware in My wrath that they should not enter into My rest.quote]

DO YOU SEE? THE SEVENTH DAY OF CREATION IS THE SABBATH DAY!

The 4th commandment is so clear about what the sabbath day is. We can see that it is talking about the seventh day of creation as being the Bible sabbath. Now for some reason, many professing Christians will adamantly proclaim that the sabbath day was not instituted at creation week, and yet we have very clear Bible proof in the 4th commandment that says the SEVENTH DAY OF CREATION IS THE SABBATH DAY. Do you see the clear link between the sabbath day of the 4th commandment and the seventh day of creation? I hope so, because they are the one same day, the Bible sabbath![/quote]This is blatantly false. Exodus 20:8-11 makes no such claim about creation or the 7th day thereof.

Big deal!! you say, the Seventh day of creation is the sabbath, so what?! Well, do you know what this means? It means that the sabbath of the 4th commandment was instituted BEFORE sin even entered this world!! And what does THAT mean?

This is blatantly false.

1. That God intended it to be observed for eternity.

Hosea 2:11 - I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

2. That it could not be a "shadow" of anything.

Except Jesus-Mat 11:28-30; Heb 4:3-11.

3. That Jesus did not change or abolish it at the cross.

Where did Jesus observe it after the cross? Jesus was on earth an addtional 40 days. Yes He did Jer 31:31-34.

4. That niether the disciples nor any man could change it to another day.

They didn't need to. Remember the woman at the well? Remember the last supper where Jesus changed Passover in time and observance -Mat 26:26-28.

Unfortunately satan has brought something into many churches today that does away with the seventh day sabbath of creation, and that is, EVOLUTION! Many professing Christians are now embracing the wicked teaching of evolution, and say that God did not create the earth in six literal days as the Bible clearly teaches, but rather that He let it evolve over a "period" of time. How do they come to this conclusion? Because they put their trust in the teachings and foolish wisdom of men, rather than in the clear teaching and great wisdom our Creator GOD.

I think I would be very carful who you are calling satan, fiend. I don't think many of the people at church are Christians. I think there are many christians.

So how is it that the majority of Christians keep the first day of the week as the sabbath day, instead of the true Bible seventh day sabbath? See who changed the sabbath for the truth on this.[/quote]We do not keep any aspect of the sabbath on Sunday.

Who Was the Sabbath Made For?

Was the seventh day sabbath made for the Jews, as the majority of professing Christians claim? There is so much we can get from that simple quote of Jesus above in Mark. Not only does it point us back to creation and the institution of the seventh day sabbath then, but Jesus also confirms that the sabbath was made for who? MAN, ie. ALL of mankind. Now why doesn't Jesus say that the sabbath was made for the Jews? Well, how many Jews were there at creation? None! There was MAN and WOMAN, Adam and Eve. So was the sabbath day made for the Jews? Of course not. It was MADE during creation week by God, for EVERYONE

This is a misuse of the word man here. I acknowledge that the word Jesus used is anthropos. It is used as a pronoun here. The context is that Jesus said He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel and Jesus was answering the Jews who posed a question. Jesus gave them an answer not the world.

"Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath." (Mark 2:28)

What is it that entitles Jesus to be LORD of the sabbath day? It's the fact that He is the Creator! In John 1:10 and Colossians 1:16 we find that Jesus is the Creator of this world. Which means that it was Jesus Himself who created the seventh day sabbath for mankind. This is how He is Lord of the sabbath.

Do you see this amazing Bible truth? Jesus created the heaven and earth. He created the seventh day sabbath. He never changed or abolished the seventh day sabbath during His ministry on earth, therefore the sabbath of the 4th commandment still stands and is binding on everyone today!

Nope. Jer 31:31-34 with Jesus testimony in MK 14:24 which states the NC is the current covenant.

'I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it.' (Ecclesiastes 3:14)

Isa 28:10 - For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

This says change. Mal 3:6 refers to God's character. If what is claimed by Eccl 3:14 is true as intended then Jer 31:31-34 is false making Jeremiah a false prophet and the bible would not be inspired by God. II Tim 3:16

 

[from scratch]

In my very first post in response to you I pointed you to Hebrews chapters 8 - 10. It shows exactly what in the old covenant was replaced by Jesus. It also shows that in the New Covenant God puts his laws in our hearts. I am under the New Covenant. If you consider being under the New Covenant as a reason to neglect God's laws then he really cannot write them on your heart. God's holy 10 commandment law which was placed seperate from the laws that Moses wrote is what God wants to write on your heart. It is his law of love. Love the lord your God will all your heart is demonstrated by the first 4 commandments. Love your neighbour and fellow men is demonstrated by the last 6 commandments. I don't need to pick and choose when the bible clearly shows us what has been done away with and what remains.

The highlighted is a pretty unfair statement.

 

[from scratch]

What you are asking others have done successful here before. Showing you that it is the same covenant. Not two. You do not understand the law at all. You do not know what the law is about , what it means and what the significance is. I have tried explaining it to you but you continue to stay stuck on points that have already been answered by others.

Just what is is it about the word new you don't understand? The very next verse says not like. Sure seems self explanitory to me. Andof course I am referring to Jer 31:31:31, 32.

 

[from scratch]

Look at the simply reality of the situation. Frogster is here debating against the law but if a baby Christian were to ask him if killing is wrong he would say yes. Lying he would say yes. Stealing he would say yes. Frogster would not try not to kill or steal or lie because he knows it is wrong. The whole purpose of the law is to give the knowledge of sin. How did Frogster know that he shouldn't take God's name in vain? It is because of the law whether directly or indirectly. He has the knowledge of sin through the law and that cannot change. If God removes the written law, what happens to the knowledge of sin? It can never pass away because the law continues in the heart. The argument really is all about the Sabbath. Remove the Sabbath from the 10 commandments and there would be no problem. The other 9 Frogster will never willingly brake and feel good about what he did. Frogster if I am wrong please correct me. 7steps the law remains. The knowledge of sin which comes by the law remains.

Read Galatians 5:16-24.

 

[from scratch]

This has been your tactic from day one. I don't know if it is intentional but it is annoying. You always seem to get stuff from my posts that is not there and was never intended. If you don't believe the 10 commandments is God's law then suit yourself.

Just as soon as you stop saying Christians are under the OC or a renewed OC. That simply is not in line even with quotes we have from Jesus (God, Himself).

 

[from scratch]

Adultery is wrong for both women and men. It is not a gender issue. I used woman to hope to make a reference to the woman caught in adultery who was brought to Jesus, without actually making the reference. I am saying that the law to stone a woman caught in adultery does not say adultery is wrong, it only states what the penalty for the sin is. The commandments "thou shalt not commit adultery" is what says that adultery is wrong. Moral laws are laws which speaks about what is right or wrong.

I read the story in John 8:1-11 and use it often to illustrate what Jeremiah was talking about in Jer 31.

• The woman did not confess
• The woman did not repent
• Jesus acknowledged the truth - she sinned
• Jesus said go and sin no more

How much closer can one get to Jer 31:34?

 

[from scratch]

Don't you ever get tired of spewing the same tired old misrepresentation of that scripture? You have worn that thing out.

If you want to be taken seriously why don't you find the scriptures that explain when and why the Sabbath was changed or done away.

Oh that's right there aren't any.

How does Frogster's statement misrepresent any scripture? Fill me in. I am not in Seattle either.

 

[Frogster]

What you are asking others have done successful here before. Showing you that it is the same covenant. Not two. You do not understand the law at all. You do not know what the law is about , what it means and what the significance is. I have tried explaining it to you but you continue to stay stuck on points that have already been answered by others.

Oh...

Sounds like you do not wish to dicuss the Abrahamic covenant to Gentiles, and to Jews, which proves he is the God of both, which means it can't be by law, as per rom 3:29-30.

I was hoping to dicuss the Abrahamic cov, not have you say this..but ok...

 

[Frogster]

Look at the simply reality of the situation. Frogster is here debating against the law but if a baby Christian were to ask him if killing is wrong he would say yes. Lying he would say yes. Stealing he would say yes. Frogster would not try not to kill or steal or lie because he knows it is wrong. The whole purpose of the law is to give the knowledge of sin. How did Frogster know that he shouldn't take God's name in vain? It is because of the law whether directly or indirectly. He has the knowledge of sin through the law and that cannot change. If God removes the written law, what happens to the knowledge of sin? It can never pass away because the law continues in the heart. The argument really is all about the Sabbath. Remove the Sabbath from the 10 commandments and there would be no problem. The other 9 Frogster will never willingly brake and feel good about what he did. Frogster if I am wrong please correct me. 7steps the law remains. The knowledge of sin which comes by the law remains.

Actually, paul said the law was for babies, in gal 3 and 4..

No, what has really happened, is it behooves people, because they know darn well, the Abrahamic cov, is not of the law. That is why i do not expect a health rebuttal.


Rom 4: 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.

And, Israel worshippers do not like this about Abraham.


Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

 

[Frogster]

Now wait a minute there. If the laws regarding punishment have been nailed to the cross (are no more) and you can't be punished why bother seeking forgivness by any means?

Dude, your on a roll!

 

[Frogster]

Don't you ever get tired of spewing the same tired old misrepresentation of that scripture? You have worn that thing out.

If you want to be taken seriously why don't you find the scriptures that explain when and why the Sabbath was changed or done away.

Oh that's right there aren't any.

Oh my! The jewish calendar does not have the sabbath?

4;10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

What other calendar would the judaizers push?

 

[Frogster]

How does Frogster's statement misrepresent any scripture? Fill me in. I am not in Seattle either.

Seems like people are just sorta hurling stuff out! I don't know why ribi said it either.

 

[Bananna]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Paul the apostle most misquoted and misread.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Col 2:8[/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Be careful that you don't let anyone rob you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Messiah. [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Paul's teaching against being bound up by manmade laws is more often used to negate Torah and promote "each man doing what is right in his own eyes" One can never remove a verse from its context. If one does one could prove all sorts of unbiblical ideas.[/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Col 2:13You were dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh. He made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Trespasses are the breaking of a commandment. If laws were done away with... we would be unable to sin. However Christ affirmed the whole Torah when he confirmed we were to love God and our neighbor as our selves.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Col 2:14wiping out the handwriting in ordinances which was against us; and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross; [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']We see Paul teaching that what was nailed to the cross was in fact the ordinances against us... Not Torah, but rather the price of our death, remitted by the Author of life dying on our cross for us.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Col 2:16Let no man therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon or Shabbat, [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']We see Paul telling us not to let other's judge us... in context... not to be judged by human laws about how we must keep every single part of each feast, in and out of Israel manmade laws were too great a burden, not even the Israelites could keep them. New moon Sabbaths alone had so much controversy even as it does today:[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']how to sight the new moon in Jerusalem [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']how to determine the beginning of God's calendar [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']if a Gentile is allowed to keep a Seventh day Sabbath in Israel[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']if they are not in a Jewish home... [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']The list is extensive and argumentative. They are shadows that teach us about what is to come... they are not to be an argument that keeps people from loving one another and meeting to study Torah. Man's ways were never meant to negate God's commands.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Col 2:17which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Messiah's. [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Col 2:18Let no one rob you of your prize by a voluntary humility and worshipping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']The humility would refer to certain man made traditions that were "shows of humility" but really just showing off; vainly they caused one to be puffed up rather than humble. [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Angels means messengers. It's debatable as to whether Paul is using the term to refer to the status of being a Jew...So contextually one might say Angels means... don't worship being a born Jew or Don't over venerate those bringing the gospel or Don't be seeking favors from Angelic beings/ministering spirits. The latter doesn't seem plausible for a number of reasons. It would seem more consistent to say again... don't let man made practices rule over you... but rather let God's Commands be your guide.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Col 2:20If you died with Messiah from the elements of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to ordinances, [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Col 2:21"Don't handle, nor taste, nor touch"[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Seriously, I've seen many more people trying to use their own moral code to subject believers to manmade rules... Don't drink alcohol, don't use any bible but the "name their favorite", men don;t where kilts, women don't wear pants.... don't dance, don't refuse to eat pork...etc. [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']..... Now what human am I going to let tell me to not keep Sabbath and appointed times?[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I don't begrudge anyone meeting to study Torah, Prophets and writings inspired by God any day including Sunday. It's just another man made custom. For some it will be of help and for some it will make them puffed up only God can judge. It's not like keeping the Seventh Day Sabbath can save them.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Two things Yeshua says:[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Mat 5:16 Let your light so [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father[/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] which is in heaven. [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Mat 5:17¶[/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets:[/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Paul upheld this teaching and was most definitely following Torah in freedom. The Aleph Tav teaches us:[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Psalm 119:45 I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Torah is true freedom. Sabbath on the Seventh Day is true rest. God's promises for Sabbath keepers are worth having. The blessings are worth receiving.[/FONT]

 

[Bananna]

Bottom line here, all are offspring in Abraham, it was before the law, that is a fact, and Sabbath and law were 430 years later.

Not to point out the obvious but the Seventh Day Sabbath started on the Seventh Day, long before Avraham.

Yeshua said the Sabbath was made for man.

That we have more information in scripture only enhances the fact that this beautiful gift brings all sorts of blessings.

I personally like the idea that I have a special place in God's holy mountain because I join myself to God's covenant to keep Commands an Sabbaths
Isa 56:5Even to them I will give in My house And within My walls a place and a name Better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name That shall not be cut off.

but that is not why I keep Sabbath. I keep it because I love meeting with my deliverer on the day He appointed.

 

[Bananna]

How many of the 600 + in the OT are we bound to keep? How do we decide which one's we don't need?

The ones that apply to you by rank, ability, gender and station.

The use of keeping "all" commandments always means as a community. The term Echad one means for God to be one with all the community of Israel, both the Hebrews and the foreigners among them.

With greater rank one has greater responsibility to keep, because the consequences will affect your subordinantes. King David broke a command God gave only to King David and thousands died.

Sabbath Keeping is a community responsibility.
Gathering fruit on the Sabbath might land generations upon generations in thorns and thisles both physically and spiritually.

Choose blessings.
bananna

 

[RibI]

How does Frogster's statement misrepresent any scripture? Fill me in. I am not in Seattle either.

I don't know how he can keep doing it, ask him.