Sabbath

[VictorC]

Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

I quoted dozens of verse over the past few weeks that I've been sharing with you.

Did you miss what I posted?
Because the sabbath is a component of the old covenant, and exists nowhere else. If you expect to keep the sabbath holy, your appeal is to compliance to the law wherein it is ordained. Without the burnt offerings and the priesthood authorized to make them, you have not complied with the law.

Resting and attending a church service doesn't meet the requirements to keep the sabbath holy, and that is the requirement in Exodus 20:8. You quoted it again, I left in my reply, and I'm waiting for your answer as to why you don't comply with it.

 

[Avonia]

We've all seen this debate go round and round many a time

You have a flare for understatement. For sure.

A weakness I see in k4c's arguments is this belief that everything not contained within the 10c was done away with.

kc4 may be better served by simply saying "I believe this because I feel called to it" instead of attempting debate - especially with somebody like Victor who takes the time and care to only offer that which is carefully thought out. I admire that discipline.

The irony is that kc4 has been effective in making the Sabbath make less sense to those who have never thought about it. There are times when I'm close to taking up his cause just to bring a bit of rigor to it - but alas, I'm not close enough! And it's ultimately a tough cause if you're anywhere close to the SDA traditional interpretation.

But it's important to kc4 - and ultimately any gaps are not that much different than the gaps I see in Christianity overall. So each follows their own path in the best way they know. This is how we learn - hopefully.

 

[VictorC]

A weakness I see in k4c's arguments is this belief that everything not contained within the 10c was done away with. It all kinda comes down to that word "commandments". Was nothing else in the OT a commandment?

That's an interesting observation. The rest of the law contains the means by which one is to comply with the Ten Commandments. How does one discard parts of the old covenant and claim they're keeping it?

 

[Duckybill]

Because the sabbath is a component of the old covenant, and exists nowhere else. If you expect to keep the sabbath holy, your appeal is to compliance to the law wherein it is ordained. Without the burnt offerings and the priesthood authorized to make them, you have not complied with the law.

I call it convenient obedience, VERY selective.

 

[Kira Light]

That's an interesting observation. The rest of the law contains the means by which one is to comply with the Ten Commandments. How does one discard parts of the old covenant and claim they're keeping it?

That might be the more productive argument to have. Obviously k4c believes everything you need to know about keeping the 4th commandment can be found within the 4th commandment (or in the NT). It is a very selective little dance, but completely necessary unless you want the whole thing to fall apart.

I guarantee k4c disagrees that the rest of the law contains the means by which you comply with the 10c, so everything else you build on top of that is immediately disregarded.

I wish there was a better way to figure out exactly where all the disagreements are so maybe this back and forth could be boiled down to its core.

 

[k4c]

Did you miss what I posted?
Because the sabbath is a component of the old covenant, and exists nowhere else. If you expect to keep the sabbath holy, your appeal is to compliance to the law wherein it is ordained. Without the burnt offerings and the priesthood authorized to make them, you have not complied with the law.

Resting and attending a church service doesn't meet the requirements to keep the sabbath holy, and that is the requirement in Exodus 20:8. You quoted it again, I left in my reply, and I'm waiting for your answer as to why you don't comply with it.

Burning animals might have been a component of the OC and it might have even been done at times on the Sabbath but that does not mean it's part of Sabbath keeping. In the same way circumcision was done on the Sabbath but that doesn't mean it's part of the Sabbath. You are adding burden just like the pharisees.

Did you know that honoring your mother and father was also a component of the OC along with not murdering, not committing adultery, not worshiping other Gods, remember the Sabbath, not stealing and so on.

Guys, it's all so very, very simple. God wants us to remember the Sabbath day taking the day off from our normal, everyday work in order to make the day special.

By saying the Ten Commandments are done away with you trample over the grace of God. You say you have no need for God's grace because you have no need for God's Law.

When asked if adultery, dishonoring your parents, stealing, using God's name in vain, worshiping other gods and so on is a sin you stumble and trip over your own belief system and have no answers.

You heal the sick and cast out demons in the name of Jesus but you are those who practice lawlessness and are not known by Jesus.

There are those who turn away the sick and hungry because of their ritualistic keeping of the Sabbath, which is just as much a sin as those who say the day is not sacred.

The faith of Jesus magnified and restored honor to the Law and taught us how to keep the Ten Commandments in light of love. These are the two foundational aspects of the NC, keeping the commandments of God and having the faith of Jesus.

God will one day rid the earth of sin and sinners, those who violate God's law and profane His holy things: these people will put no difference between the holy and profane, neither will they show difference between the unclean and the clean, they will hide their eyes from God's Sabbath and He will profaned among them. They will fullfill the prophecy of Isaiah who said, "People will worship God with their lips but their heart will be far from Him". This was said in light of changing the Ten Commandments and replacing them with the commandments of men.

In the last days the love of many will grow cold because the foundation of godly love (God's Law) will be snuffed out of the land by people who are lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

They will have a form of godliness by they will deny that which teaches godiness, God's Law. From them God says, turn away.

 

[VictorC]

Burning animals might have been a component of the OC and it might have even been done at times on the Sabbath but that does not mean it's part of Sabbath keeping.

Your ignorance of the law is not an excuse for noncompliance to it, for the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." (Galatians 3:12). Here is what the law states as requisite to keep the sabbath holy:

Numbers 28
9 `And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering--
10 `this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering.​

By saying the Ten Commandments are done away with you trample over the grace of God. You say you have no need for God's grace because you have no need for God's Law.

By saying that you keep the Ten Commandments, in contradiction to God's conclusion of your performance according to Jeremiah 31:32 and Romans 11:32, and then violating the decree in the Ten Commandments to keep the sabbath holy, you violate the entire covenant while you bear false witness and consider God a liar.

You heal the sick and cast out demons in the name of Jesus but you are those who practice lawlessness and are not known by Jesus.

I have to break the bad news to you; someone does.
You're practicing lawlessness. There isn't anyone alive who isn't practicing lawlessness according to God's conclusion, and the only difference between those that Jesus never knew and those who do the will of God is who Jesus remembers the sins of. The redeemed of God have His promise "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more", and those reliant on their feigned performance will have their iniquity remembered outside of God's redemption.

The faith of Jesus magnified and restored honor to the Law and taught us how to keep the Ten Commandments in light of love. These are the two foundational aspects of the NC, keeping the commandments of God and having the faith of Jesus.

Jesus didn't teach you how to commit adultery with your former husband He redeemed us from. And no one told you to discard the commandments of God and replace them with the covenant Jesus Christ delivered us from and took away by His own Hand.

They will fullfill the prophecy of Isaiah who said, "People will worship God with their lips but their heart will be far from Him". This was said in light of changing the Ten Commandments and replacing them with the commandments of men.

That's what you're doing when you discard God's holy law while professing to keep it, and feigning ignorance of the law when you fail to comply with the burnt offerings.

I think that's enough - God told us to turn away from those professing to have a form of Godliness while concluding that God is a liar.

 

[VictorC]

That might be the more productive argument to have. Obviously k4c believes everything you need to know about keeping the 4th commandment can be found within the 4th commandment (or in the NT). It is a very selective little dance, but completely necessary unless you want the whole thing to fall apart.

I guarantee k4c disagrees that the rest of the law contains the means by which you comply with the 10c, so everything else you build on top of that is immediately disregarded.

I wish there was a better way to figure out exactly where all the disagreements are so maybe this back and forth could be boiled down to its core.

I agree with your observations.
I recently reviewed Hebrews 6:1-6, where it mentions that we aren't to lay the foundation of repentance from dead works again, which are the motions of feigned compliance to the law. This passage opines that it is impossible for those who return to those dead works to be restored, and I can only hope for better things to be found in God's mercy that passes our comprehension.

 

[VictorC]

I agree with your observations.
I recently reviewed Hebrews 6:1-6, where it mentions that we aren't to lay the foundation of repentance from dead works again, which are the motions of feigned compliance to the law. This passage opines that it is impossible for those who return to those dead works to be restored, and I can only hope for better things to be found in God's mercy that passes our comprehension.

I'm wondering if k4c has seen the impact of this statement from Scripture?