Sabbath question from seeker

Stryder06 · May 31, 2011

ricker said:
I can't imagine that was the only time an Israelite was killed for breaking the Sabbath, just the only one mentioned. It was God's law to put to death those who broke it.

You're correct about intentional and unintentional sins. Only the unintentional ones were cleansed by the temple sacrifices.

I wouldn't doubt it that more Isrealites were killed for breaking the sabbath, I however contend that it wasn't some arbitrary type killing like "oh you picked up a stick! STONE HIM" type thing. I would imagine it was the mans intentions behind gathering the sticks which warranted his death.

Korah and his family were swallowed up for rebellion. Achan along with his family, were stoned for covetousness and lying. I think that these instances are much more severe since the individual along with their families were destroyed.

stinsonmarri · Jun 1, 2011

Stryder06 said:
I wouldn't doubt it that more Isrealites were killed for breaking the sabbath, I however contend that it wasn't some arbitrary type killing like "oh you picked up a stick! STONE HIM" type thing. I would imagine it was the mans intentions behind gathering the sticks which warranted his death.

Korah and his family were swallowed up for rebellion. Achan along with his family, were stoned for covetousness and lying. I think that these instances are much more severe since the individual along with their families were destroyed.

Amen!!

Blessings
stinsonmarri

ricker · Jun 1, 2011

Stryder06 said:
I wouldn't doubt it that more Isrealites were killed for breaking the sabbath, I however contend that it wasn't some arbitrary type killing like "oh you picked up a stick! STONE HIM" type thing. I would imagine it was the mans intentions behind gathering the sticks which warranted his death.

Korah and his family were swallowed up for rebellion. Achan along with his family, were stoned for covetousness and lying. I think that these instances are much more severe since the individual along with their families were destroyed.

In my past experience, law keeping pertaining to the Sabbath in Adventist circles always did seem to be quite subjective. As long as you agreed we should keep the Sabbath, and at least sometimes went to church, you were golden. It is, of course, the intentions that count.

Joe67 · Jun 2, 2011

ricker said:
In my past experience, law keeping pertaining to the Sabbath in Adventist circles always did seem to be quite subjective. As long as you agreed we should keep the Sabbath, and at least sometimes went to church, you were golden. It is, of course, the intentions that count.

ricker,

Luke 17:9-10
9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? 10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'" NASU

Rom 2:13-16
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. NASU

After being over zealous after the law according to the SdA Great Controversy presentation, I went through a period of time thinking of faith as being adversarial to law; and thereby I thought of law as against the promises of the Lord to Abraham.

Romans 2:13-16 is witnessing that all men have been bound under some form of law; wherein they accuse or defend each other and thereby the secrets of their hearts are revealed in spite of their previous profession toward the God of their worship. In this process they are being judged by the words out of their own mouth. They will be bound by what they bind. They will be set free by that which they set free. Our Lord Jesus has declared and therein promised.

Matt 12:37
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. KJV

Joe

stinsonmarri · Jun 2, 2011

ricker said:
In my past experience, law keeping pertaining to the Sabbath in Adventist circles always did seem to be quite subjective. As long as you agreed we should keep the Sabbath, and at least sometimes went to church, you were golden. It is, of course, the intentions that count.

Ricker:

I did not quite understood what you mean could you make it more simpler for me? Thanks!

Blessings
stinsonmarri

ricker · Jun 2, 2011

stinsonmarri said:
Ricker:

I did not quite understood what you mean could you make it more simpler for me? Thanks!

Blessings
stinsonmarri

Sure, I can try!

It seems to me that for many SDA people saying you believe the Sabbath law is still binding is the important thing. The details of how a person keeps it is more or less up to the individual. No real specific rules.

Edit to add. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, just an observation that relates to the OP.

stinsonmarri · Jun 4, 2011

Ricker:

Thanks for explaining this for me. Do you mind if I take you down the Bible history lane for a moment? Israel had the same problem of keeping the Sabbath as the SDA Church today. Sad to say you are correct but it does not make it right. The Sabbath was explained how to be kept and many will realize in the Church when it is too late.

I also want to say to you that the Sabbath is not the only command given by Elohim we are to keep all of His Commands and that is clear both in the OT and NT without a doubt. As I continue to say on many threads why is it so hard for others to not understand that all governments have laws? You also abide by laws even with your body the things you do. Let me explain I do not mistreat homosexuals but it is clear that this is not legally naturally. The law of birth requires a man and a woman to copulate together to conceive a child. There are others nature's laws that they can't participate in as well.

Our entire bodies are made from Elohim's law from the beginning we call them nature or natural. For instance all hearts even though whoes are defected always comes on our left side at the right place. Our circulatory system is never backwards. Blood runs a certain way and when you die you cannot come back alive after your blood is gone.

Men speculate on many things but they cannot stop time but it was stop once and went backward once by Elohim only because they are His laws. Birds know where to go like clockwork from the south to the north. Yet man the most intelligent made in the likeness and resemblance of Yahweh thinks He do not have to be govern by the law of Elohim. How sad and how far we have fallen!

Congress of the United States make laws they fight and change and make you confuse but not about the laws that were originally given by Elohim. Those are the duties to man which are steal, killing, coveting and having one wife or husband. But the ones that Elohim specifically says about Him and your obligation to Him we fall short. We abuse and changed His name, we worship idols, and we changed His day that proves who He is the Father Elohim of the universe. How bazaar is this and to think that His Son would come down and change what the Father said! We argue over Matt 5:17 when in other places the Savior says He keeps His Father's commandments. He even told His Father that He had done what He asked Him to do and They are One working together. Just like the example of the institution of marriage They created!

Finally I will you leave with this one that truly baffles me. When Yahweh told Noah to take the animals in the boat two by two that all people speak of! Why??? The Bible clearly says that Yahweh said also to Noah to take only four unclean animals and seven clean animals into the ark. Oh yeah Noah was not a Jew and once again it shows the consistency with the Bible.

I also have two final questions to ask now what Testament did Yashua and the disciple use as their Bible because the New Testament was not even canonized until after the third century? They used only the Old Testament that means they kept the same laws and there is proof that they did! One last one question if Yashua said He was master of the Sabbath and John was in vision on the Master's day seems like the same day to me unless there is a Master I do not know about! Well that's the rest of the story.

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

ricker · Jun 5, 2011

[=stinsonmarri;57658527]

Ricker:

Thanks for explaining this for me. Do you mind if I take you down the Bible history lane for a moment? Israel had the same problem of keeping the Sabbath as the SDA Church today. Sad to say you are correct but it does not make it right. The Sabbath was explained how to be kept and many will realize in the Church when it is too late.

I also want to say to you that the Sabbath is not the only command given by Elohim we are to keep all of His Commands and that is clear both in the OT and NT without a doubt. As I continue to say on many threads why is it so hard for others to not understand that all governments have laws? You also abide by laws even with your body the things you do. Let me explain I do not mistreat homosexuals but it is clear that this is not legally naturally. The law of birth requires a man and a woman to copulate together to conceive a child. There are others nature's laws that they can't participate in as well.

Our entire bodies are made from Elohim's law from the beginning we call them nature or natural. For instance all hearts even though whoes are defected always comes on our left side at the right place. Our circulatory system is never backwards. Blood runs a certain way and when you die you cannot come back alive after your blood is gone.

Men speculate on many things but they cannot stop time but it was stop once and went backward once by Elohim only because they are His laws. Birds know where to go like clockwork from the south to the north. Yet man the most intelligent made in the likeness and resemblance of Yahweh thinks He do not have to be govern by the law of Elohim. How sad and how far we have fallen!

Congress of the United States make laws they fight and change and make you confuse but not about the laws that were originally given by Elohim. Those are the duties to man which are steal, killing, coveting and having one wife or husband. But the ones that Elohim specifically says about Him and your obligation to Him we fall short. We abuse and changed His name, we worship idols, and we changed His day that proves who He is the Father Elohim of the universe. How bazaar is this and to think that His Son would come down and change what the Father said! We argue over Matt 5:17 when in other places the Savior says He keeps His Father's commandments. He even told His Father that He had done what He asked Him to do and They are One working together. Just like the example of the institution of marriage They created!

I will tell you my point of view about the law, remembering that I can't argue against your beliefs in this forum.
I agree that God has moral standards that we, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, are to follow. Where we disagree is probably that I believe the Sabbath was not a moral law for the world, but a sign of the specific covenant God made with Israel.

Finally I will you leave with this one that truly baffles me. When Yahweh told Noah to take the animals in the boat two by two that all people speak of! Why??? The Bible clearly says that Yahweh said also to Noah to take only four unclean animals and seven clean animals into the ark. Oh yeah Noah was not a Jew and once again it shows the consistency with the Bible.

When the command was given to take extra of some animals in the ark, God hadn't even given animals to humans for food yet. After the flood when God did give permission to eat animals, it is quite apparent He gave us every animal. The clean/unclean distinction must have been for sacrificial or other reasons, not necessarily eating, especially when God after the flood said explicitly that everything that moves can be food for us.

I also have two final questions to ask now what Testament did Yashua and the disciple use as their Bible because the New Testament was not even canonized until after the third century? They used only the Old Testament that means they kept the same laws and there is proof that they did!

I really don't know how many copies of the OT were availiable in those times, but I'm sure that it was used by the early Christians along with the letters from the Apostles (just like we current Christians use both). That doesn't mean, however, that they set aside land on Sabbatical years, had priests absolve skin issues, and observed the feast of weeks, etc. I'm sure you get my point.

One last one question if Yashua said He was master of the Sabbath and John was in vision on the Master's day seems like the same day to me unless there is a Master I do not know about! Well that's the rest of the story.

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

The phrase used by John in Revelation "Lord's Day" from what I understand is not found anywhere else in the Bible, but this exact phrase was used by the early church to mean the first day of the week. Of course this is not "proof" that John meant the first day of the week, but it is interesting.

Thanks for your interaction and God bless.

EastCoastRemnant · Jun 6, 2011

ricker said:
When the command was given to take extra of some animals in the ark, God hadn't even given animals to humans for food yet.

We don't know that for sure.... for Noah to understand what a clean vs unclean animal was, he must have had prior knowledge.

The phrase used by John in Revelation "Lord's Day" from what I understand is not found anywhere else in the Bible, but this exact phrase was used by the early church to mean the first day of the week. Of course this is not "proof" that John meant the first day of the week, but it is interesting.

Three times, in Matt, Mark and Luke, Jesus is quoted saying that He is the Lord of the Sabbath... it doesn't take a scholar to understand that the Lord's day was the day that He said He was the Lord of.

If I tell you that I am the owner of the house at 435 Main St., and then someone refers to Ken's house in another conversation, you are not going to think they are talking about a different house.

k4c · Jun 6, 2011

ricker said:
I will tell you my point of view about the law, remembering that I can't argue against your beliefs in this forum.
I agree that God has moral standards that we, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, are to follow. Where we disagree is probably that I believe the Sabbath was not a moral law for the world, but a sign of the specific covenant God made with Israel.

When the command was given to take extra of some animals in the ark, God hadn't even given animals to humans for food yet. After the flood when God did give permission to eat animals, it is quite apparent He gave us every animal. The clean/unclean distinction must have been for sacrificial or other reasons, not necessarily eating, especially when God after the flood said explicitly that everything that moves can be food for us.

I really don't know how many copies of the OT were availiable in those times, but I'm sure that it was used by the early Christians along with the letters from the Apostles (just like we current Christians use both). That doesn't mean, however, that they set aside land on Sabbatical years, had priests absolve skin issues, and observed the feast of weeks, etc. I'm sure you get my point.

The phrase used by John in Revelation "Lord's Day" from what I understand is not found anywhere else in the Bible, but this exact phrase was used by the early church to mean the first day of the week. Of course this is not "proof" that John meant the first day of the week, but it is interesting.

Thanks for your interaction and God bless.

God blessed and sanctified the seventh day before sin and it was very good. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. We still have seven days in a week with the last day being the seventh day. Sin, death and evil did not unbless or unsanctify the seventh day. Jesus is Lord of that blessed and sanctified day. That very same day God blessed when He created it. We are called to remember to keep it a blessed and holy day. I am not under any law that forces me to remember to keep the seventh day holy or not to steal but love for God and man makes it hard not to follow these principles because God, who is love, has inspired my heart through love. If you love God and man you too will find it hard not to live by godly principles of love that have been defined by God.

ricker · Jun 6, 2011

[=EastCoastRemnant;57667403]
We don't know that for sure.... for Noah to understand what a clean vs unclean animal was, he must have had prior knowledge.

We don't know much about the whole episode concerning the clean animals going into the ark, including prior knowledge. All we know for sure is God's statement giving everything that moves to be food for us after the flood. That is hard to argue against.

Three times, in Matt, Mark and Luke, Jesus is quoted saying that He is the Lord of the Sabbath... it doesn't take a scholar to understand that the Lord's day was the day that He said He was the Lord of.

If I tell you that I am the owner of the house at 435 Main St., and then someone refers to Ken's house in another conversation, you are not going to think they are talking about a different house.

Of course those three times are describing the same event. My statement stands. It could mean the seventh day, but the exact phrase is never found elsewhere in the Bible, and was used to mean the first day by the early Christians.

k4c · Jun 6, 2011

ricker said:
We don't know much about the whole episode concerning the clean animals going into the ark, including prior knowledge. All we know for sure is God's statement giving everything that moves to be food for us after the flood. That is hard to argue against.

Of course those three times are describing the same event. My statement stands. It could mean the seventh day, but the exact phrase is never found elsewhere in the Bible, and was used to mean the first day by the early Christians.

Noah took two unlean animals, male and female, and seven clean animals, male and female. If Noah ate even one unclean animal that breed would have become extinct from that point on.

When Jesus said He was Lord of the Sabbath they knew exactly which day He was referring to because the Sabbath change from the seventh day to the first day did not happen until 300 years after Christ and the Apostles.

Joe67 · Jun 6, 2011

Rev 1:10
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, KJV

Rev 4:2
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. KJV

Rev 17:3
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. KJV

Rev 21:10
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, KJV

It began with the following experience.
Rev 1:9
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. KJV

The key to all 4 of the experiences witnessed above is, being "in the spirit".
Being "in the spirit" is the fellowship of Jesus' sufferings. When we are given to experience the sufferings of Jesus Christ, then we are given to see that circumcision or uncircumcision avails nothing, though they were God given for a little while.

All 4 of these experiences "in the spirit" are vital parts of God's work of grace in our heart and mind.

Let us, who are mature, be "in the spirit", in the fellowship of Jesus' sufferings, being made conformable to his death.

Joe

EastCoastRemnant · Jun 6, 2011

k4c said:
If you love God and man you too will find it hard not to live by godly principles of love that have been defined by God.

EastCoastRemnant · Jun 6, 2011

ricker said:
Of course those three times are describing the same event. My statement stands. It could mean the seventh day, but the exact phrase is never found elsewhere in the Bible, and was used to mean the first day by the early Christians.

Let me ask you a question that will hopefully show what I'm talking about...

do you believe that Satan tempted Eve in the garden?

ricker · Jun 6, 2011

EastCoastRemnant said:
Let me ask you a question that will hopefully show what I'm talking about...

do you believe that Satan tempted Eve in the garden?

Yes, I believe that the serpent probably was Satan in visible form tempting Eve. Revelation says:

9 The great dragon was hurled downthat ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.

ricker · Jun 6, 2011

Joe67 said:
Rev 1:10
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, KJV

Rev 4:2
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. KJV

Rev 17:3
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. KJV

Rev 21:10
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, KJV

It began with the following experience.
Rev 1:9
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. KJV

The key to all 4 of the experiences witnessed above is, being "in the spirit".
Being "in the spirit" is the fellowship of Jesus' sufferings. When we are given to experience the sufferings of Jesus Christ, then we are given to see that circumcision or uncircumcision avails nothing, though they were God given for a little while.

All 4 of these experiences "in the spirit" are vital parts of God's work of grace in our heart and mind.

Let us, who are mature, be "in the spirit", in the fellowship of Jesus' sufferings, being made conformable to his death.

Joe

Thanks, Joe.
We should probably pay more attention the the fact that he was in the Spirit, and what that means, than what day it happened to be on.

ricker · Jun 6, 2011

k4c said:
Noah took two unlean animals, male and female, and seven clean animals, male and female. If Noah ate even one unclean animal that breed would have become extinct from that point on.

When Jesus said He was Lord of the Sabbath they knew exactly which day He was referring to because the Sabbath change from the seventh day to the first day did not happen until 300 years after Christ and the Apostles.

Did Noah eat any of the animals?

The Sabbath was never changed. The Lord's day had a different meaning on a different day of the week to the early Christians.

k4c · Jun 6, 2011

ricker said:
Did Noah eat any of the animals?

The Sabbath was never changed. The Lord's day had a different meaning on a different day of the week to the early Christians.

There are those who are always learning but they never come to a knowledge of truth. Everything that is said, they deny or inject some form of doubt and never contribute anything of substance. The first day of the week had no special meaning to the early church. As a matter of fact, at one point Paul travelled many miles on the first day by foot and by boat. Paul even gave specific instructions to the church to have them gather stuff from their homes and barns on the first day so when he returned he could collect it for the suffering brothers and sisters. Paul understood how gathering all this needed stuff would be time consuming and labor intensive so he specifically tells them to do it on the first day.

EastCoastRemnant · Jun 6, 2011

ricker said:
Yes, I believe that the serpent probably was Satan in visible form tempting Eve. Revelation says:

9 The great dragon was hurled downthat ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.

By the same method you used to identify who the serpent was, by letting scripture interpret intself, is the same way we know that the Lord's day was the day that Jesus said He was the Lord of.... Sabbath

Sabbath question from seeker

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