There is absoultely nothing wrong with the ways you want to serve God and absolutely nothing wrong with serving him in those ways on the Sabbath.
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Sabbath Do's and Dont's, do we have any?
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OntheDL
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We just to have to make sure those ways are in accordance to God's specific commands.
Cain worshipped God, correct? And he did his own way. Did it please God?
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Hi Ricker,
Yesterday you said
I'm curious, what, if anything, would it take to show you the Sabbath was not intnded just for the Jews and is indeed Biblical and relivent for Chrstians today?
Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc
Yesterday you said
I'm curious, what, if anything, would it take to show you the Sabbath was not intnded just for the Jews and is indeed Biblical and relivent for Chrstians today?
Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc
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ricker
Regular Member
That is a good and fair question. To me the Genesis 2 account of the seventh day being blessed could be taken either way. It could be understood that God blessed the seventh day, meaning every seventh day in every week thereafter, or it could be understood to mean He blessed that particular day because he was done (rested,accomplished) with His creation. It would really sway me to believe the former if there were a clear allusion to Sabbath keeping before Exodus 16.
Next there are multiple verses saying the Sabbath was commanded of the Israelites and seemingly them only. At least one says it is their sign exclusivly. If I knew of anywhere, in the old covenant even, where Jews were to procaim the blessings of the Sabbath to other nations, It would make me rethink my position.
We will now move to the gospels. Jesus admittedly kept the Sabbath, as well as the other feasts and cerimonies required of the law given to the Israelites. Jesus did not "rock the boat" by teaching all the nuances of the new covenant, which didn't go into effect until His resurrection. Remember at the Transfiguration when Moses and Elijah, signifying the law and the prophets, disappeared, leaving only Jesus, and Jesus instructed them to tell no one until "after the Son of man has been raised from the dead". That being said, of course, if Jesus had said the Sabbath was an eternal principal under the new covenant,or told his followers to proclaim the law of Moses, it would make a world of difference.
That leaves the epistles. These are the specific instructions on how Christians are to live under the new covenant. Paul is "the apostle to the gentiles." If there were admonitions for them to keep the Sabbath, or instructions on how to, It would be cut and dried.
When we bring in the subject of the law, things get confusing. The Sabbath command is in the ten. This seems to mean a lot more to some people than others. There are many laws given at Sinai. Adventists in particular seem to pick and choose which laws ar still applicable and which aren't, but some others do this also. I know of no Biblical basis for this, and who gets to decide anyway? The new testament writers don't seem to, unless you get picky on certain terminology that is never qualified.
If you take verses out of context about the law, you can prove anything you want to. I think a person has to view the law as tied to the covenants. It seems plain to me the mosaic covenant (the ten), were in effect from Sinai till "the Seed".
Anyhow, When dealing with the Sabbath, I think it best to read what the Bible says about it, and not speculate or try to make mountains out of molehills. In my mind there are plain verses such as Colossions 2:16, Galations 4:10, Romans 14:5, and Hebrews 4:9-10 that seem to indicate we don't need to observe "days" or "Sabbaths" and our rest is now in Jesus. I know these can be "expained away" by people with an agenda, but I choose to read them as they stand. I've never had to "explain away" verses saying gentiles have to keep the Sabbath.
On the flip side, The only verse I know of even vaguely saying the Sabbath was made for mankind, doesn't say that, but says for man. (Jews can be men). To me this is a very shaky verse to try to contradict the rest of the Bible. That passage also says "not man for the Sabbath", implying to me they weren't it's servant, so to speak. Also read in context Jesus is addresing questions of His behavior on the Sabbath, comparing Sabath observance to cerimonial laws, and saying the Sabbath was "made". (not eternal). Are there verses where the Bible says a command or law is made "for man", and it means mankind? I have never checked. I know of verses that are very plain when giving instruction to all of mankind. 1 Timothy 2:4 is an example.
I bet your sorry you asked now! I apologize for the long post. I appreciate your apparent concern and interest. I am an honest seeker and am not here just to cause trouble. I don't believe I am closed minded, and I pray the Spirit is leading me (as well as you). I was raised an Adventist, by great parents, and have been a member of the Lutheran church for 18 years. Again, I know Adventists are brothers and sisters in Christ and I am just explaining what I believe is truth. I harbor no ill will and thank God we're not saved by a theology exam!
God bless! Ricker
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Hi once again Ricker,
No, I'm not sorry I ask you the question. And I wish to thank you for the long post. You have given a very good and understandable response. You have also shown that you are a reasonable and open minded person who has done more than just casual reading of the Scriptures. Once again I say thank you.
Your response deserves more than just a short or stereotyped answer. If you will indulge me, I will take the time to dig into my files and attempt to explain, what seems to me to be reasonable, logical, biblical, answers about the Sabbath. I would also like to explain the relationship that the Bible indicates that God wants to have with mankind and how the Sabbath plays a vital role in that relationship.
I may need to appoligize to you for a long post by the time we finish. In fact I know that it will take me more than only one post due to health problems. I'll probably need to take a few breaks. That combined with the fact that I've got to be the slowest person on the face of the earth when it comes to using the keyboard. LOL
I'll be back as soon as I can retrieve my notes ect. In the meantime, have a very happy Sabbath.
Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc
No, I'm not sorry I ask you the question. And I wish to thank you for the long post. You have given a very good and understandable response. You have also shown that you are a reasonable and open minded person who has done more than just casual reading of the Scriptures. Once again I say thank you.
Your response deserves more than just a short or stereotyped answer. If you will indulge me, I will take the time to dig into my files and attempt to explain, what seems to me to be reasonable, logical, biblical, answers about the Sabbath. I would also like to explain the relationship that the Bible indicates that God wants to have with mankind and how the Sabbath plays a vital role in that relationship.
I may need to appoligize to you for a long post by the time we finish. In fact I know that it will take me more than only one post due to health problems. I'll probably need to take a few breaks. That combined with the fact that I've got to be the slowest person on the face of the earth when it comes to using the keyboard. LOL
I'll be back as soon as I can retrieve my notes ect. In the meantime, have a very happy Sabbath.
Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc
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ricker
Regular Member
Sorry to hear of your health problems, Doc. Take your time, and feel free to split things up to simplify our discussions. I'm not going anywhere! I am interested also in your response to my last question. Again, take your time, I will check this thread periodically. God bless! Ricker
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ricker
Regular Member
Just so this doesn't get buried. Am I way off base in my post answering your question? I would honestly like to know your opinion. After many years of never attending an SDA church, I have been to two different ones in the last couple of months, and will probably go again in a couple of weeks. I really have questions of the Sabbath being commanded of anyone but the Jews under the old covenant. It was plainly given to them and I don't see it commanded of gentiles/Christians anywhere in the Bible. Help me out! Again, I just didn't want this to get buried and forgotten.
Sincerely, Ricker
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Hi Ricker
My first question to you would be consider the 10 commandments now if ony 1 relates to the Jews only what about the other 9?
Second question - I have not found a New Testament texts that states the apostles recognised Sunday as their new Sabbath. Even their writings about the resurrection does not recognise this.
3. Have you ever studied church history and the change from 7th day to the 1st day of the week?
Whatever you decide, let the Lord lead you and welcome! (P.S get yourself a hard hat for here-lol)
My first question to you would be consider the 10 commandments now if ony 1 relates to the Jews only what about the other 9?
Second question - I have not found a New Testament texts that states the apostles recognised Sunday as their new Sabbath. Even their writings about the resurrection does not recognise this.
3. Have you ever studied church history and the change from 7th day to the 1st day of the week?
Whatever you decide, let the Lord lead you and welcome! (P.S get yourself a hard hat for here-lol)
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ricker
Regular Member
Thank you for the warm welcome, moicherie! To answer your first question, the Bible definitely says the ten commandments were the covenant with the Jews. It also says the Sabbath was the sign to the Jews. As Christians we are under a new covenant under the Spirit. Does the Spirit lead me to kill my neighbor? No! Do I not kill my neighbor because it is in the ten commandments? Not neccesarily. Do you see what I mean?
As far as I know, the Sabbath is never commanded of gentiles or Christians in the Bible, while being specifically given to the Israelites.
To address your second question, no Christians I have met in my 47 years try to "keep" sunday at all like SDA's try to keep the Sabbath. Most churches around here have Saturday services for those who find it more convienient. I don't see anyone on this forum saying Sunday is the new Sabbath, but we now have our Sabbath rest in the completed work of Christ.
No, I have not in the least studied the "change" from Sabbath to Sunday, because I think it is a moot point. We are free to worship on any day and every day. I think our salvation rests on Christ and Christ alone, not on when we plop ourselves in a pew.
That being said, The reason I am here is not to be arguementive. My family is almost all SDA and I love them dearly and of course they think I am lost, even though I am an active member of a Christian church. I just would like someone to show me I am wrong from the Bible, and not just inuendo or speculation.
God bless you! Ricker
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Hi once again Ricker.
After my question to you, you responded by saying:
Just to clarify my thinking, when I got my notes out, it appears that we have exchanged thoughts on this topic before.Do you recall that exchange? I should say that whether you do, or don't, recall that exchange I'll still be happy to restate my position. It also appears that there may have been other posters here that may have taken part in the other exchange. Let me know what, if anything. you recall from past exchanges before I start my response. As the old country saying goes; "I don't want to go off half cocked and shoot twice."
Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc
After my question to you, you responded by saying:
So that we don't play 'biblical ping-pong,' I'll wait to respond to that question until after I (hopefuly) have answered your question.
Just to clarify my thinking, when I got my notes out, it appears that we have exchanged thoughts on this topic before.Do you recall that exchange? I should say that whether you do, or don't, recall that exchange I'll still be happy to restate my position. It also appears that there may have been other posters here that may have taken part in the other exchange. Let me know what, if anything. you recall from past exchanges before I start my response. As the old country saying goes; "I don't want to go off half cocked and shoot twice."
Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc
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ricker
Regular Member
Hello Doc! You keep notes? I'm impressed! Maybe, if you would, read my last reply to Telaquapacky in the "Sabbath debate" area. If you think I am wrong in my "demands" of what I would need to change my mind, I wish you would tell me. I remember your "name" but don't remember just what direction our discussion went. If I seem "short" sometimes, it's just that the same arguements are made over and over and some don't seem to be valid to me. I really don't want to bring Ellen White into this, but if anything I said contradicted her take on things, would you listen? I think this is the 400 pound gorilla in the corner for Adventist debate. They say SDA theology is all Biblical, but will not ever entertain any idea that is not endorsed by her. This seems to stifle open discussion by some. How can anyone "debate" Biblical points when there is a forgone conclusion by a person seen to be unfailing in Biblical interpretation? I'm not saying you do this, but some do.
Anyway, I think it can be profitable to exchange texts and ideas if both parties are really interested in truth. The Bible says we are to search the scriptures. If you think it might be good to continue our discussion, great! If you don't I still consider you a brother in Christ and wish you the best! Ricker
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This is where if you accept the same Spirit of Prophecy that John speaks about in Revelation as the 'testimony of Jesus Christ' then you get a first hand revelation of what the Sabbath was about, as the Creator gave the gift of the Sabbath to man.
"....The creation was now complete. "The heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them." "And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good." Eden bloomed on earth. Adam and Eve had free access to the tree of life. No taint of sin or shadow of death marred the fair creation. "The morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy." Job 38:7.
The great Jehovah had laid the foundations of the earth; He had dressed the whole world in the garb of beauty and had filled it with things useful to man; He had created all the wonders of the land and of the sea. In six days the great work of creation had been accomplished. And God "rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made." God looked with satisfaction upon the work of His hands. All was perfect, worthy of its divine Author, and He rested, not as one weary, but as well pleased with the fruits of His wisdom and goodness and the manifestations of His glory.
After resting upon the seventh day, God sanctified it, or set it apart, as a day of rest for man. Following the example of the Creator, man was to rest upon this sacred day, that as he should look upon the heavens and the earth, he might reflect upon God's great work of creation; and that as he should behold the evidences of God's wisdom and goodness, his heart might be filled with love and reverence for his Maker.
In Eden, God set up the memorial of His work of creation, in placing His blessing upon the seventh day. The Sabbath was committed to Adam, the father and representative of the whole human family. Its observance was to be an act of grateful acknowledgment, on the part of all who should dwell upon the earth, that God was their Creator and their rightful Sovereign; that they were the work of His hands and the subjects of His authority. Thus the institution was wholly commemorative, and given to all mankind. There was nothing in it shadowy or of restricted application to any people.
God saw that a Sabbath was essential for man, even in Paradise. He needed to lay aside his own interests and pursuits for one day of the seven, that he might more fully contemplate the works of God and meditate upon His power and goodness. He needed a Sabbath to remind him more vividly of God and to awaken gratitude because all that he enjoyed and possessed came from the beneficent hand of the Creator. ...." excerpts from Patriach and Prophets Chapter 2.
If you reject what God gives, then the Sabbath means nothing.....
"....The creation was now complete. "The heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them." "And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good." Eden bloomed on earth. Adam and Eve had free access to the tree of life. No taint of sin or shadow of death marred the fair creation. "The morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy." Job 38:7.
The great Jehovah had laid the foundations of the earth; He had dressed the whole world in the garb of beauty and had filled it with things useful to man; He had created all the wonders of the land and of the sea. In six days the great work of creation had been accomplished. And God "rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made." God looked with satisfaction upon the work of His hands. All was perfect, worthy of its divine Author, and He rested, not as one weary, but as well pleased with the fruits of His wisdom and goodness and the manifestations of His glory.
After resting upon the seventh day, God sanctified it, or set it apart, as a day of rest for man. Following the example of the Creator, man was to rest upon this sacred day, that as he should look upon the heavens and the earth, he might reflect upon God's great work of creation; and that as he should behold the evidences of God's wisdom and goodness, his heart might be filled with love and reverence for his Maker.
In Eden, God set up the memorial of His work of creation, in placing His blessing upon the seventh day. The Sabbath was committed to Adam, the father and representative of the whole human family. Its observance was to be an act of grateful acknowledgment, on the part of all who should dwell upon the earth, that God was their Creator and their rightful Sovereign; that they were the work of His hands and the subjects of His authority. Thus the institution was wholly commemorative, and given to all mankind. There was nothing in it shadowy or of restricted application to any people.
God saw that a Sabbath was essential for man, even in Paradise. He needed to lay aside his own interests and pursuits for one day of the seven, that he might more fully contemplate the works of God and meditate upon His power and goodness. He needed a Sabbath to remind him more vividly of God and to awaken gratitude because all that he enjoyed and possessed came from the beneficent hand of the Creator. ...." excerpts from Patriach and Prophets Chapter 2.
If you reject what God gives, then the Sabbath means nothing.....
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I don't see the Sabbath as only about formal worship, God is to be worshipped every day, our life should be an act of worship and Sabbath or Sunday keeping is more about going to church and sitting in a building for a few hours.
However at Creation the creator rested after His work was completed, considering man was made on the 6th day I would like to think Adam and the Woman enjoiyed the sabbath rest on the 7th day with the Creator and perhaps every week since. When you consider Jesus words that He did not come to abolish but to fulfil the law He is lord of the sabbath and yes its more than just doing things cos the 10 commmandments say so its about a relationship with the Lord. Just because a law is formally written - i.e the 10 commandments does not mean that law does not exist or is not practised. I like to see the sabbath as part of God 's common law, like killing, stealing, covetingetc, Yes they were formalised in Exodus 20 by being written down but those moral codes always existed before the NT and afterwards including the sabbath.
Plus I don't believe your lost just because you are not a Sabbath keeper thatsis for no human to decide, Adventist or not. Sorry about that, some Adventists do have that Borg thing going on, if you are not part of the collective you are doomed! lol
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ricker
Regular Member
Thank you for your thoughtfull reply. The only place where we seem to differ, is I don't believe the Sabbath is part of God's common law, but given to the Isrealites only as their "sign" per Exodus 31:13. How many thousand or million Spirit-filled Christians are there who don't have a Sabbath law "written on their hearts"? I would not deny your right to worship or keep the Sabbath under the freedom we have in Jesus Christ. Thank you again for your response! God bless! Ricker
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The real question is that if there was no Law at this time, why would Cain killing Abel be a transgression.......
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Dania
New Child Of Christ -- Representing KINGSTON
on sabbath i go to church.. if not i tek out my bible read it extensively. check out memory verse. listen to music. read a book or so about spiritual stuff.
i dont tek things to the extreme : i spread my bed and if i use a dish i wash it.
i avoid school work. yard work etc and just meditate, rest, think, pray, sing, talk about spiritual stuff.
its this time when things just slow down and i can catch up back on myself and God. after a stressfu; week i can unwind. figure out stuff about me that i need to change etc.. just search my soul basically. the rest of the week is so fast.. i dont have time to reflect on anything..
so that what i get out of it: prayerful reflection, rest, tr to learn something new about the christian walk.. something that will help motivate me, encourage me, strengthen me..
its actually cool to me..
especially since where i board the ppl leave for the weekend. its just me.. and the breeze .. very calming. i think i am much more calm now and not as easily irritated as i was before because of these times..
i dont think the sabbath has to be strict.. just dont work!! isnt that good news? lol just spend time in communion with God. a who day!!
i dont tek things to the extreme : i spread my bed and if i use a dish i wash it.
i avoid school work. yard work etc and just meditate, rest, think, pray, sing, talk about spiritual stuff.
its this time when things just slow down and i can catch up back on myself and God. after a stressfu; week i can unwind. figure out stuff about me that i need to change etc.. just search my soul basically. the rest of the week is so fast.. i dont have time to reflect on anything..
so that what i get out of it: prayerful reflection, rest, tr to learn something new about the christian walk.. something that will help motivate me, encourage me, strengthen me..
its actually cool to me..
especially since where i board the ppl leave for the weekend. its just me.. and the breeze .. very calming. i think i am much more calm now and not as easily irritated as i was before because of these times..
i dont think the sabbath has to be strict.. just dont work!! isnt that good news? lol just spend time in communion with God. a who day!!
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