I actually overstated when I first posted, about disagreeing with him. I have sinced edited the post to make it clearer. There are things he's written that don't "strike me" as 100%, but other than perhaps what you mention, and possibly a few minor incidentals, Chestertos is about as sharp as they come.PE - I'd be curious as to what you do disagree with - I disagree with almost nothing, except the Catholic Church, of course, and on his faith in accomplishing things through political action in this world (a common Catholic malaise).
what? You are leaving? no way..budy... You made me read and read your posts *full of wisodom* Made me read CS Lewis for the first time (from your posts in TAW) and your insights in Russia and Russian Orthodoxy are eyeopeners for meYou ain't going nowhere ya hear??
Do not make me come to Russia to visit ya
Please don't leave rus, I appreciate your posts hereAnd besides, you don't want us to start a thread called "bring back rus" do you?
I think people of other faiths think us to be on a high horse if they hear us sing "We have found the true faith..." (and are no longer open to syncretism or finding truth in other faiths). I guess the question is, can a person think himself really right and not be arrogant in doing so? I don't think I'm anything special - the things I learned I learned by the circumstances of life and God's providence. The way I see it, I am just a jerk, but even a jerk can really know something, be sure of it, and be right where other, better people are wrong. My failing is undoubtedly, to my mind, in communicating the part that I am just a jerk. Also, it has been said that men speak to the topic, and women speak to each other. There may be some ways in which my words may be more likely to bounce off a woman's ears because of that. Just an idea, but I think it not unreasonable or unlikely.
If our perspective is that of the faith being true, of the Church having the authority to teach us and starting from an acknowledgement of the Fall, then it is certainly a perspective we don't want to lose. But do I think others have truth? Certainly. Do I think them all nuts? Not at all. Do I think that a great many of them might have been deceived by the world about certain things? I certainly do, and we as Orthodox Christians certainly do about a great many things.
So what is true and right in your words as they relate to me? Well, I think a lack of care in my words - a failure of charity, in spite of my attempts to speak with charity. What I do is obviously not good enough if you get the impression that I think everybody is nuts.
.....
I think RKO touched on something big. Probably the very best example of this would be a person who, having read some GKC, thinks him to be an anti-semite. And there are such people. And they are wrong. But they HAVE read something, which, as far as they understand it, as far as it appears to them, is (as they understand it) anti-semite. But the person who reads further and looks harder finds clarity - and a clue to that is when you discover how much the Zionists considered him to be an ally, because he really was against ill-treatment of Jews, and really was for them having a homeland of their own - and that clarifies the earlier statements into treating Jews, not as foreign scum to be trashed, but as foreign dignitaries to be honored. Not that I want to hash that all out here, just to say that a quick surface reading can give false impressions, and it turns out that it is our understandings which are mistaken. I have never in all my life, not by any writer been forced to think the way Chesterton forces me to think. And when I do think I find depth, and insight. It's one reason why a couple of books and a few essays are not nearly enough.
But in case anyone has gotten me wrong on this - Chesterton is someone I have enormous admiration for. He is axios. But he is not the Church. It just so happens that what he says on the whole is compatible with and supports Orthodox Church doctrine. It has the tremendous advantage over all Orthodox writers I know of of making sense of how the modern world came to where it is today. We already knew why - sin and the Fall. But how - that is something GKC is a master of making clear. But the Church is first in my mind - it is right where all of us - even GKC - are wrong.
But what's the use of talking about where GKC was wrong if we don't consider where he was right?
Yea, I was out of line. Pray for me.Uh... wow... that's a bit on the harsh side man. She may not have stated it this way, but there's definitely a place for a self-aware intellectual humility in discussions (esp. online).
Can't we all just hug and get along?
Yea, I was out of line. Pray for me.
You probably have no clue who I am, but I've been around TAW on and off for a few years -- a long time ago quite intensively as an inquirer in TAW by the name of contriteheart, and recently more on-and-off as a (now happily Lutheran) lurker. So though you may not know me, I have read many of your posts, and have appreciated them.
Tonight I was reading Orthodoxy (because of your recommendation of Chesterton, incidentally!), and I came upon a quote that I found helpful to me. And in thinking about it, I think it's possible it may be helpful to you, too. It may sound a bit strident at first, but it's not meant to be. I think my comments afterward will clear that up. Here it is:Now I grant you that he's talking about a man who suffers from paranoia, and I'm in no way saying that's the case with you...or me!
Oh, I admit that you have your case and have it by heart, and that many things do fit into other things as you say. I admit that your explanation explains a great deal; but what a great deal it leaves out! Are there no other stories in the world except yours; and are all men busy with your business? Suppose we grant the details; perhaps when the man in the street did not seem to see you it was only his cunning; perhaps when the policeman asked you your name it was only because he knew it already. But how much happier you would be if you knew these people cared nothing about you! How much larger your life would be if your self could become smaller in it; if you could really look at other men with common curiosity and pleasure; if you could see them walking as they are in their sunny selfishness and their virile indifference! You would begin to be interested in them, because they were not interested in you. You would break out of this tiny and tawdry theatre in which your own little plot is always being played, and you would find yourself under a freer sky, in a street full of splendid strangers.
What I am saying is that on the whole, people (even people who care for us) for the most part have very little interest in what we think, or know, or believe because they are much more concerned with what they think, or know, or believe. That is just fallen human nature. If we can get past how very offensive it is to our pride (and I mean that word in the best sense), we can be free from a great burden of needing people to hear us and value what we have to say. That then, frees us to freely and joyfully contribute the gifts, knowledge, and experience we have been given by God, without the attached strings of us needing to be heard and agreed with -- which (paradoxically) makes it easier for others to actually hear us and agree with us!
There is a fabulous quote by Thomas a Kempis that I hold dear. It goes like this: "Let not thy peace depend upon the word of men; for whether they judge well or ill of thee, thou art not therefore any other man than thyself."
No one can take from you the gifts, wisdom, and knowledge God has given to you. You are the man you are before God...no more and no less. What you have to contribute is valuable. And it is not less so because it is unacknowledged (or even contradicted) by others at times.
I appreciate you taking the time to read this post from someone you don't know. If it doesn't apply, please disregard it. If it applies just a bit (as a friend of mine likes to say) just "Eat the meat and spit out the bones." And if I'm out of line for posting here at all, I apologize. I'm often well-intentioned, but wrong.
Thank you for who you are and for what you contribute here. I wouldn't be reading Orthodoxy if it wasn't for your recommendation of Chesterton, so if you feel you're not making any headway, take heart, you are. It may be that you just don't always get to see it.
Blessings in Christ to you!
You gave a clip once where this guy who represented the Chestertonian interrupted small talk and then said "My friend died" and then someone sai "I'm sorry" and he said "why are you sorry". How pedantic of that a-hole. Look death is something that happens but that chestertonian was 100% focused on himself and he knew that in saying that he was going to get that reaction. He also knew that the man wasn't apologizing but using sorry to say "I regret your friend had to die" because death is a sad thing. We beleive that as ORthodox Christians so saying sorry is totally fine.
Josh
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