Rural Tennessee Fire Sparks Conservative Ideological Debate

JamesAH

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Rural Tennessee fire sparks conservative ideological debate | The Upshot Yahoo! News - Yahoo! News

Just about anything can be fodder for an ideological dispute these days. Just consider news of the recent fire at Gene Cranick's home in Obion County, Tenn. Here's the short version of what happened: In rural Obion County, homeowners must pay $75 annually for fire protection services from the nearby city of South Fulton. If they don't pay the fee and their home catches fire, tough luck -- even if firefighters are positioned just outside the home with hoses at the ready.


Gene Cranick found this out the hard way.
When Cranick's house caught fire last week, and he couldn't contain the blaze with garden hoses, he called 911. During the emergency call, he offered to pay all expenses related to the Fire Department's defense of his home, but the South Fulton firefighters refused to do anything.
They did, however, come out when Cranick's neighbor -- who'd already paid the fee -- called 911 because he worried that the fire might spread to his property. Once they arrived, members of the South Fulton department stood by and watched Cranick's home burn; they sprang into action only when the fire reached the neighbor's property.
"I hadn't paid my $75 and that's what they want, $75, and they don't care how much it burned down," Gene Cranick told WPSD, an NBC affiliate in Kentucky. "I thought they'd come out and put it out, even if you hadn't paid your $75, but I was wrong."
Watch a video report:

The incident has sparked a debate in many corners of the Web. Writers for the National Review, arguably the nation's most influential right-leaning voice, have seized on the episode to discuss the relative merits of compassionate conservatism versus a hard-line libertarianism.


Daniel Foster, a self-described "conservative with fairly libertarian leanings" who writes for the magazine, took issue with the county's laissez-faire approach to firefighting, calling it "a kind of government for which I would not sign up."
"What moral theory allows these firefighters (admittedly acting under orders) to watch this house burn to the ground when 1) they have already responded to the scene; 2) they have the means to stop it ready at hand; 3) they have a reasonable expectation to be compensated for their trouble?" Foster wrote.

But Foster's colleague Kevin Williamson took the opposite view. Cranick's fellow residents in the rural stretches of Obion County had no fire protection until the county established the $75 fee in 1990. As Williamson explained: "The South Fulton fire department is being treated as though it has done something wrong, rather than having gone out of its way to make services available to people who did not have them before. The world is full of jerks, freeloaders, and ingrates — and the problems they create for themselves are their own. These free-riders have no more right to South Fulton's firefighting services than people in Muleshoe, Texas, have to those of NYPD detectives."


Liberals are pouncing on the Cranick fire as an illustration of what they take to be the callous indifference of a market regime that rewards privileged interests over the concerns of ordinary Americans.
"The case perfectly demonstrated conservative ideology, which is based around the idea of the on-your-own society and informs a policy agenda that primarily serves the well-off and privileged," Think Progress' Zaid Jilani wrote in a response to the National Review writers. "It has been 28 years since conservative historian Doug Wead first coined the term 'compassionate conservative.' It now appears that if any such philosophy ever existed, it has few adherents in the modern conservative movement."
 

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This is such a sad event. What has America come to? No matter what your political ideology all good people should agree that fire protection is an essential public service, it supports the general welfare of our communities.
 
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Nathan Poe

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This is such a sad event. What has America come to? No matter what your political ideology all good people should agree that fire protection is an essential public service, it supports the general welfare of our communities.


Now that's just plain socialism talking! next thing you know, you'll be claiming that health care falls under the same category!
 
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lawtonfogle

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Rural Tennessee fire sparks conservative ideological debate | The Upshot Yahoo! News - Yahoo! News

Just about anything can be fodder for an ideological dispute these days. Just consider news of the recent fire at Gene Cranick's home in Obion County, Tenn. Here's the short version of what happened: In rural Obion County, homeowners must pay $75 annually for fire protection services from the nearby city of South Fulton. If they don't pay the fee and their home catches fire, tough luck -- even if firefighters are positioned just outside the home with hoses at the ready.


Gene Cranick found this out the hard way.
When Cranick's house caught fire last week, and he couldn't contain the blaze with garden hoses, he called 911. During the emergency call, he offered to pay all expenses related to the Fire Department's defense of his home, but the South Fulton firefighters refused to do anything.
They did, however, come out when Cranick's neighbor -- who'd already paid the fee -- called 911 because he worried that the fire might spread to his property. Once they arrived, members of the South Fulton department stood by and watched Cranick's home burn; they sprang into action only when the fire reached the neighbor's property.
"I hadn't paid my $75 and that's what they want, $75, and they don't care how much it burned down," Gene Cranick told WPSD, an NBC affiliate in Kentucky. "I thought they'd come out and put it out, even if you hadn't paid your $75, but I was wrong."
Watch a video report:

The incident has sparked a debate in many corners of the Web. Writers for the National Review, arguably the nation's most influential right-leaning voice, have seized on the episode to discuss the relative merits of compassionate conservatism versus a hard-line libertarianism.


Daniel Foster, a self-described "conservative with fairly libertarian leanings" who writes for the magazine, took issue with the county's laissez-faire approach to firefighting, calling it "a kind of government for which I would not sign up."
"What moral theory allows these firefighters (admittedly acting under orders) to watch this house burn to the ground when 1) they have already responded to the scene; 2) they have the means to stop it ready at hand; 3) they have a reasonable expectation to be compensated for their trouble?" Foster wrote.

But Foster's colleague Kevin Williamson took the opposite view. Cranick's fellow residents in the rural stretches of Obion County had no fire protection until the county established the $75 fee in 1990. As Williamson explained: "The South Fulton fire department is being treated as though it has done something wrong, rather than having gone out of its way to make services available to people who did not have them before. The world is full of jerks, freeloaders, and ingrates — and the problems they create for themselves are their own. These free-riders have no more right to South Fulton's firefighting services than people in Muleshoe, Texas, have to those of NYPD detectives."


Liberals are pouncing on the Cranick fire as an illustration of what they take to be the callous indifference of a market regime that rewards privileged interests over the concerns of ordinary Americans.
"The case perfectly demonstrated conservative ideology, which is based around the idea of the on-your-own society and informs a policy agenda that primarily serves the well-off and privileged," Think Progress' Zaid Jilani wrote in a response to the National Review writers. "It has been 28 years since conservative historian Doug Wead first coined the term 'compassionate conservative.' It now appears that if any such philosophy ever existed, it has few adherents in the modern conservative movement."


You see, it is this applied to all areas of life which would happen if we dropped socialism. I always focused on the child protection service, because children are the least likely to be able to pay for a protection service. Imagine the horror if children had to pay to have any claims of abuse against them investigated. At best, someone might pay on the behalf of a child, but the general effect would be that far fewer claims of child abuse would be investigated. Apply this to the police. Poor people would have no recourse against crimes against them.

This would basically serve to divide the rich and poor to even greater extents.
 
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Polycarp1

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Now that's just plain socialism talking! next thing you know, you'll be claiming that health care falls under the same category!

Illustrating your own law again, I see! ;)

A little background:

- Obion County has no paid or volunteer fire service.
- People in the vicinity of the city of South Fulton are offered the services of South Fulton's fire department at a $75 annual fee -- billed direct to the homeowner as a voluntary contracted service, not collected as taxes or rates by the county.
- Cranick claims he "forgot about" the bill. However, he had another fire at his farm in 2007, and had not paid then either. At that time, they put out the fire and took his annual fee afterwards. So it's quite possible he was trying to game the system -- not pay unless he had a fire, then raise a fuss if denied the service he'd never paid for afterwards, as he's done.
- Fire departments are typically funded by taxes or rates, either as a part of municipal taxes (urban and some suburban areas) or as a 'rate' fee collected by the municipality and passed on to the fire department (rural and some suburban areas).
- From posts on another message board, it appears Tennessee's law requires emergency workers to save human life, but does not require them to save property outside their municipal or contracted service area.

If anyone wants a point blank example of the failure of privatization, this is a pretty good example.
 
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Polycarp1

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I'm not sure which is more despicable: allowing someone's house to burn down because of $75, or defending a fire department for not doing their job.
Ringo

However, "their job" in this case was to put out fires in the city that funded them, and to provide fire services in the surrounding countryside on a voluntary-fee basis. As I noted in my other post, this guy apparently depended on public reaction to force them to put out any fire at his place while deciding to "save $75" by not paying the contract annual fee they asked for to provide fire services outside the city.

Honestly, I have no interest in defending firemen who let a home burn over a money dispute. But I find serious fault with a system that puts them in that position in the first place. IMO if they're providing the service, they should be funded by either taxes or a mandatory fee collected with the taxes. This system puts them in a bind too.
 
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JamesAH

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You see, it is this applied to all areas of life which would happen if we dropped socialism

Socialism causes more problems than solving them. But then again liberal minded folks can't seem to get past that.
 
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blueapplepaste

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At the very least they should have saved, or tried to save the house, and then taken her to court for the $75 or the cost that the fire department spent to save her house for her failing to pay.

But to just watch it burn? That's just cruel and is exactly why emergency services should always be available for all.

What's next? Not saving someone's life because they can't afford the medical bills?

A sad and sickening story.
 
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ACougar

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People talk about socialism and capitalism like thier opposing teams. The reality of the situation is that they both represent extremes that get ugly when you stray too far in one direction or the other.

A certain amount of socialism in our society is a good thing... especially when it comes to emergency services. Too much socialism, socialism to the extent that it is having a measurable impact on peoples motivation and incentive to innovate and create wealth is a bad thing.
 
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Nathan Poe

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But to just watch it burn? That's just cruel and is exactly why emergency services should always be available for all.

Socialist! ;)

What's next? Not saving someone's life because they can't afford the medical bills?

Remember WinAce? Nothing "next" about it, I'm afraid.
 
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moonkitty

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Illustrating your own law again, I see! ;)

A little background:

- Obion County has no paid or volunteer fire service.
- People in the vicinity of the city of South Fulton are offered the services of South Fulton's fire department at a $75 annual fee -- billed direct to the homeowner as a voluntary contracted service, not collected as taxes or rates by the county.
- Cranick claims he "forgot about" the bill. However, he had another fire at his farm in 2007, and had not paid then either. At that time, they put out the fire and took his annual fee afterwards. So it's quite possible he was trying to game the system -- not pay unless he had a fire, then raise a fuss if denied the service he'd never paid for afterwards, as he's done.
- Fire departments are typically funded by taxes or rates, either as a part of municipal taxes (urban and some suburban areas) or as a 'rate' fee collected by the municipality and passed on to the fire department (rural and some suburban areas).
- From posts on another message board, it appears Tennessee's law requires emergency workers to save human life, but does not require them to save property outside their municipal or contracted service area.

If anyone wants a point blank example of the failure of privatization, this is a pretty good example.

This is an issue that I'm really torn on. I understand and agree with the points you made. This home owner should have paid his fee, and that those living in the area not taxed for fire coverage should be aware of what can happen--but there is no way that I, personally, could stand by and let someone's house burn down if I could help/prevent it. No matter how big of a cheat/irresponsible homeowner he/she is.
 
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Supreme

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What is wrong with America? Firemen just stood there and watched a guy's house burn down, for the sake of $75? This is nothing short of incredibly stupid.

Here in Britain, we pay for the fire service in our taxes. It's not perfect, but at least it prevents firemen standing at a burning house and not doing anything about it.
 
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keith99

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However, "their job" in this case was to put out fires in the city that funded them, and to provide fire services in the surrounding countryside on a voluntary-fee basis. As I noted in my other post, this guy apparently depended on public reaction to force them to put out any fire at his place while deciding to "save $75" by not paying the contract annual fee they asked for to provide fire services outside the city.

Honestly, I have no interest in defending firemen who let a home burn over a money dispute. But I find serious fault with a system that puts them in that position in the first place. IMO if they're providing the service, they should be funded by either taxes or a mandatory fee collected with the taxes. This system puts them in a bind too.

I have a bit of a general followup question for all on this thread. Does anyone here know directly, meaning a friend, relative, neighbor or the like of a case where an individual house caught fire. Basically Any fire except fro those huge ones where 100s or acreas or more burned? I do not. The reason I ask is to point out that this is something that has a very low chance of happening. But to cover that chance a fire department has to make a pretty big investment. Anyone see the financial issue? To cover that investment they either have to get the small amount up front or a huge amount after the fact. In this case I'd bet the huge amount is more than the value of this guys mobil home.

If what Ploycarp1 says is true this guy had already gamed the system and they let him get away with it. They were nice enough to believe he forgot the first time, sorry I have little sympathy for his situation.
 
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