Rosary vs icons.

[Tigger45]

Forgive my ignorance but Fr. Matt posted this response concerning a thread about Orthodox Christians using the Rosary. Orthodoxy and the Rosary? I’m guessing it comes down to using as he stated ‘using mental images while praying’. I didn’t want to derail the other thread so I guess my question boils down to how do Orthodox Christians use icons without mental images?

 

[ArmyMatt]

when you are praying, you focus on the words of the prayer, not making stuff up in your head.

there is a difference between imagining the Passion, and looking at an icon of the Passion.

 

[Lost4words]

Wouldnt the icon of the passion be an image that someone 'made up' to produce it though?

 

[AMM]

when you are praying, you focus on the words of the prayer, not making stuff up in your head.

there is a difference between imagining the Passion, and looking at an icon of the Passion.

I’ve also read, and please correct me Father if I’m wrong, that pure prayer is done without even an icon. I think I remember St Theophan’s “on the Jesus Prayer” saying something to that effect - we should pray with our eyes closed and only open our eyes to look at the icon when we begin to feel dejected

 

[ArmyMatt]

I’ve also read, and please correct me Father if I’m wrong, that pure prayer is done without even an icon. I think I remember St Theophan’s “on the Jesus Prayer” saying something to that effect - we should pray with our eyes closed and only open our eyes to look at the icon when we begin to feel dejected

yes, pure prayer is even done while asleep.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Wouldnt the icon of the passion be an image that someone 'made up' to produce it though?

based on prayer and the theological understanding of the Church. not based on imagination.

 

[Lost4words]

based on prayer and the theological understanding of the Church. not based on imagination.

But, that icon would have been made from an image from the mind. Nobody is around that can give an exact image of what Jesus looked like or what the passion was like. We have to rely on our Church's understanding and faith too.

When i pray the Rosary, it is from images that i know from what Jesus went through.

 

[ArmyMatt]

But, that icon would have been made from an image from the mind. Nobody is around that can give an exact image of what Jesus looked like or what the passion was like. We have to rely on our Church's understanding and faith too.

When i pray the Rosary, it is from images that i know from what Jesus went through.

right, that's why there are schools to teach iconography. it's to convey theology of the Passion. it's created based on the theological truth, not what the iconographer thinks the Passion looks like.

and when we pray the Jesus Prayer, we avoid mental imagery.

 

[Lost4words]

right, that's why there are schools to teach iconography. it's to convey theology of the Passion. it's created based on the theological truth, not what the iconographer thinks the Passion looks like.

and when we pray the Jesus Prayer, we avoid mental imagery.

So you just pray the Jesus prayer with a blank mind?

 

[ArmyMatt]

So you just pray the Jesus prayer with a blank mind?

no, you focus on what is being said

 

[All4Christ]

So you just pray the Jesus prayer with a blank mind?

We don’t try to envision anything or have mental imagery during the Jesus prayer. I don’t have an image of the passion or anything like that.

Do you have a mental image when saying the Lord’s Prayer? What about the Gloria? Or do you focus on the prayer / hymn itself?

 

[Lost4words]

no, you focus on what is being said

So, the words dont produce images in your mind?

 

[Lost4words]

We don’t try to envision anything or have mental imagery during the Jesus prayer. I don’t have an image of the passion or anything like that.

Do you have a mental image when saying the Lord’s Prayer? What about the Gloria? Or do you focus on the prayer / hymn itself?

I tend to think of Jesus crucified

 

[Not David]

We don’t try to envision anything or have mental imagery during the Jesus prayer. I don’t have an image of the passion or anything like that.

Do you have a mental image when saying the Lord’s Prayer? What about the Gloria? Or do you focus on the prayer / hymn itself?

I would have to admit that sometimes I think of Jesus Christ in Heaven during the Lord's prayer.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So, the words dont produce images in your mind?

not when I am focused on the words. but I still have a looooooong way to go to keep that focus for more than a second or two.

 

[zippy2006]

So, the words dont produce images in your mind?

That's the purpose of words: to produce mental 'imagery.' It is possible to read a text, "just focus on the words," and have no idea what the text is saying. Words are audible or visual pointers to realities (concepts, images, ideas, theology, etc.). If it doesn't point you anywhere it contains no intelligibility and I wouldn't consider it a word.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That's the purpose of words: to produce mental 'imagery.' It is possible to read a text, "just focus on the words," and have no idea what the text is saying. Words are audible or visual pointers to realities (concepts, images, ideas, theology, etc.). If it doesn't point you anywhere it contains no intelligibility and I wouldn't consider it a word.

that's not the point of the words of prayer. even if images are at the beginning, you are supposed to go beyond them where they are not used with the words in prayer.

 

[AMM]

that's not the point of the words of prayer. even if images are at the beginning, you are supposed to go beyond them where they are not used with the words in prayer.

Yep - St Theophan says the same thing. When we start off we might have images in our mind, but if we don’t pay too much attention to them and ask God for help in pure prayer, then over time it becomes less and less

It’s like any other skill - you don’t become a pro overnight

 

[AMM]

Another thing to add is that we *do* know what Christ looked like - the first icon was painted by St Luke who knew the holy family personally

 

[zippy2006]

My opinion is that if you are just mouthing words as a robot without any intellectual activity you would be better off with hesychastic or contemplative prayer. Words in prayer are not fundamentally different from words in general. They are still meant to signify, represent, etc. When I pray the Jesus prayer I think about Jesus.

But since we are not in a 'debate forum' I will not push this further.