Romney: If Donald runs in 2024, he'll probably be nominated.

[cow451]

Donald...Donald.....not ringing a bell. Who are we talking about?

Oh, you mean that loudmouth guy who had a cameo in Home Alone 2, the one who was in Pizza Hut commercials?



Why? There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a socialist. I consider myself a socialist, and while I do want a strong social safety net, I think the problems with our system go far beyond mere safety nets.

If the reason is that "conservatives" are going to screech about the term 'socialist', keep in mind: they're going to do that anyway. They've been doing it for 40+ years, which is one reason why people under 40 generally aren't scared of socialism or the term 'socialist'; it's been so overused by disingenuous people that it's lost a lot of its fear factor.
Ringo

Nice to see you again. Don’t forget the most socialist institutions in the USA are the Armed Forces.

 

[Pommer]

Donald...Donald.....not ringing a bell. Who are we talking about?

Oh, you mean that loudmouth guy who had a cameo in Home Alone 2, the one who was in Pizza Hut commercials?



Why? There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a socialist. I consider myself a socialist, and while I do want a strong social safety net, I think the problems with our system go far beyond mere safety nets.

If the reason is that "conservatives" are going to screech about the term 'socialist', keep in mind: they're going to do that anyway. They've been doing it for 40+ years, which is one reason why people under 40 generally aren't scared of socialism or the term 'socialist'; it's been so overused by disingenuous people that it's lost a lot of its fear factor.
Ringo

Glad to see that you’re still kickin’.

 

[Ringo84]

Not to stray too far off topic, but thanks for the greetings, friends! It's been a long time and I had no idea if there was anyone who'd remember when I was here.

Yep, some of the same people who rail against 'socialism' are the same ones who draw Medicare checks and are really into "are troops". The irony is usually lost on them.
Ringo

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The suspense is killing me, What will Trump say on Sunday
and how will the people react.
He certainly makes good television.

What's up Sunday?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Nice to see you again. Don’t forget the most socialist institutions in the USA are the Armed Forces.

Absolutely correct - they direct almost every aspect of your life - where you live - the job you are assigned - what you wear - were you can get healthcare and the extent of the healthcare you can get - they provide housing - give you a salary - demand loyalty to the organization and punish those who don't follow code.

Absolutely correct - they are great examples of socialism.

 

[cow451]

What's up Sunday?

CPAP..., I mean CPAC. Big conservative shindig where he is unveiling himself. Mike Pence declined attending. He and the EX President had a little falling out over the “Hang Mike Pence” gathering.

I’m planning to watch .... Basketball or the Walking Dead.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I think Trump would likely lose if he were to run again. Maybe I’m being optimistic but I just don’t see him doing any better than he did last year and even that wasn’t enough to stop the tide of voters dead set against his re-election.

I could see him beating Harris if Biden decides to not go for a second term.

 

[eclipsenow]

I think Trump would likely lose if he were to run again. Maybe I’m being optimistic but I just don’t see him doing any better than he did last year and even that wasn’t enough to stop the tide of voters dead set against his re-election.

Yes. This. I mean, some of the 'Stop the vote' sentiment I even met here in Australia claimed that there were just too many voters - that it just didn't make sense. Because they couldn't imagine how many extra voters would turn out to vote against their man, and that he really was on the nose!

 

[eclipsenow]

Why? There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a socialist. I consider myself a socialist, and while I do want a strong social safety net, I think the problems with our system go far beyond mere safety nets.

Are you a command economy socialist against any private ownership of goods and property? Or are you more of a middle-wing OrdoLiberal like myself that is basically what every good Democrat should be?

I'm Social / Ordo-Liberal. Basically, like Australia's economy with full medicare for all and social housing for those who need it. BTW - we're hardly communists and have 1% more tax per unit GDP than you guys. But we spend less of that tax on our military, and even LESS of it on our healthcare. (American healthcare is notoriously expensive being on a 'for-profit' business model not just government run.)

Social Liberalism: Civil Rights, Social Justice and State funded Welfare in a Market Economy.
Ordo-Liberalism: (Same idea) - A free market regulated by the state produces a social market economy.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

CPAP..., I mean CPAC. Big conservative shindig where he is unveiling himself. Mike Pence declined attending. He and the EX President had a little falling out over the “Hang Mike Pence” gathering.

I’m planning to watch .... Basketball or the Walking Dead.

I can see how the HMP thing might come between them, even the most ardent Trumpist.

 

[Ringo84]

Are you a command economy socialist against any private ownership of goods and property? Or are you more of a middle-wing OrdoLiberal like myself that is basically what every good Democrat should be?

I'm Social / Ordo-Liberal. Basically, like Australia's economy with full medicare for all and social housing for those who need it. BTW - we're hardly communists and have 1% more tax per unit GDP than you guys. But we spend less of that tax on our military, and even LESS of it on our healthcare. (American healthcare is notoriously expensive being on a 'for-profit' business model not just government run.)

Social Liberalism: Civil Rights, Social Justice and State funded Welfare in a Market Economy.
Ordo-Liberalism: (Same idea) - A free market regulated by the state produces a social market economy.

Well, first I'd point out that it's not against private property in the sense that you don't own what you have, but more in the sense of workers owning the means of production.

I'm probably a little of both. I think private corporations and billionaires have far too much power in this country, and that we should nationalize a lot of industries - beginning with the internet. At the same time, I think that if we're going to live up to our mantra that "all men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", then we should put our money where our mouth is: M4A, housing for those who need it, and we can pay for a lot of it by cutting those fat contracts to defense contractors and taxing the rich.

I'm not sure that a "free" market, at least as it currently exists in the US, can respond to basic human need. A textbook example of that is health care.
Ringo

 

[camille70]

I'm not sure he will run, but if he makes money off saying he will, I think he will keep the speculation going which will keep other GOP candidates out the race.

His kids will probably run for office if they don't end up in jail. There is too much money to be had for them to do otherwise.

 

[eclipsenow]

Well, first I'd point out that it's not against private property in the sense that you don't own what you have, but more in the sense of workers owning the means of production.

Oooh, I love a good worker's co-op. Did you know Ocean Spray Cranberry juice and even a power company in North America are worker's co-ops?

I'm probably a little of both. I think private corporations and billionaires have far too much power in this country, and that we should nationalize a lot of industries - beginning with the internet. At the same time, I think that if we're going to live up to our mantra that "all men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", then we should put our money where our mouth is: M4A, housing for those who need it, and we can pay for a lot of it by cutting those fat contracts to defense contractors and taxing the rich.​

I have a lot of sympathy for what you're saying, but still think a little competition can help. Co-ops competing and innovating? But sometimes competition is just duplication, and would be more efficient if nationalized.

I'm not sure that a "free" market, at least as it currently exists in the US, can respond to basic human need. A textbook example of that is health care.
Ringo​

Brother from another mother, I hear you!
America is a freak in OECD countries in that they privatised medicine and these profit-motive hospitals charge what they want. See this graphic at the WIKI! Health care in the United States - Wikipedia
You spend about DOUBLE what Australia does to live 3 years less, on average. More, for worse outcomes.

You not only spend more total, it costs more of your GDP - over 15% in your case while ours is about 8.5%. And we live 3 years longer!

Then there's this quote:
"For example, the average cost in the U.S. for an MRI scan was $1,119, compared to $811 in New Zealand, $215 in Australia and $181 in Spain. However, data showed that 95th percentile in the price of this procedure in the U.S. was $3,031, meaning some people are paying nearly $3,000 more for a standard MRI scan in the U.S. than the average person in Australia and Spain. "
How U.S. Healthcare Costs Compare to Other Countries
VOX explaining what went wrong.

Stephen Fry explains:

Second Thought explains:

 

[cow451]

Oooh, I love a good worker's co-op. Did you know Ocean Spray Cranberry juice and even a power company in North America are worker's co-ops?

I'm probably a little of both. I think private corporations and billionaires have far too much power in this country, and that we should nationalize a lot of industries - beginning with the internet. At the same time, I think that if we're going to live up to our mantra that "all men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", then we should put our money where our mouth is: M4A, housing for those who need it, and we can pay for a lot of it by cutting those fat contracts to defense contractors and taxing the rich.​

I have a lot of sympathy for what you're saying, but still think a little competition can help. Co-ops competing and innovating? But sometimes competition is just duplication, and would be more efficient if nationalized.

I'm not sure that a "free" market, at least as it currently exists in the US, can respond to basic human need. A textbook example of that is health care.
Ringo​

Brother from another mother, I hear you!
America is a freak in OECD countries in that they privatised medicine and these profit-motive hospitals charge what they want. See this graphic at the WIKI! Health care in the United States - Wikipedia
You spend about DOUBLE what Australia does to live 3 years less, on average. More, for worse outcomes.
View attachment 295415



You not only spend more total, it costs more of your GDP - over 15% in your case while ours is about 8.5%. And we live 3 years longer!
View attachment 295416

Then there's this quote:
"For example, the average cost in the U.S. for an MRI scan was $1,119, compared to $811 in New Zealand, $215 in Australia and $181 in Spain. However, data showed that 95th percentile in the price of this procedure in the U.S. was $3,031, meaning some people are paying nearly $3,000 more for a standard MRI scan in the U.S. than the average person in Australia and Spain. "
How U.S. Healthcare Costs Compare to Other Countries
VOX explaining what went wrong.

Stephen Fry explains:

Second Thought explains:

Looks like some good arguments for Universal Healthcare.

 

[eclipsenow]

Looks like some good arguments for Universal Healthcare.

Yep! All those people who have said "We can't afford universal healthcare if we can't afford the system we're running now that misses lots of people!" have got it backward. Instead, you can't afford universal healthcare because of the for-profit system you're running now! These 2 FACTS alone should make every Republican campaign for universal healthcare.

You spend about DOUBLE what Australia does to live 3 years less, on average. More, for worse outcomes.
View attachment 295415

You not only spend more total, it costs more of your GDP - over 15% in your case while ours is about 8.5%. And we live 3 years longer!
View attachment 295416

Imagine living in a society where every citizen has a Medicare card - and in an emergency doesn't really have to consider which hospital will give them cover - they just go to the nearest public hospital and get treated. When you are sick or injured or in pain, you don't want to have to 'shop around' as the free market guys try to insist. It's a crisis. It's like having multiple different fire insurance agencies rather than the one fire department per state. Some things just work better as a guaranteed public service. Emergency healthcare is one. You can still have private health insurance for luxuries and non-essentials - but emergency life saving healthcare should be government, all the way.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Romney says Trump likely Republican nominee if he runs in 2024




Romney's expecting the GOP to have learned nothing -- and I'll bet my blessings he's right.

Thoughts?

I think that I care about what Romney thinks as much as I care about what AOC thinks. Which is not at all. I don't think Trump will run in 2024 but he will likely endorse and help campaign for someone else. Perhaps "Lying Ted"?

 

[mark46]

1) I have all the things you think so wonderful and much more under the US Medicare system.

With regard to costs, there are many things that can be done to reduce costs, including bidding for drugs, and allowing the use of Canadian drugs. Insurance companies could be allowed to sell policies that cover more than one state. BTW, we have insurance companies of all kinds, including cooperatives where the owner are the policyholders and there are rebates depending on performance.

2) I see no reason for the federal government to own hospitals or to have doctors as employees.

3) I am fine with everyone being on Medicare. The issues are transitional ones.
3a) we could have every baby born be automatically on Medicare.
3b) We could gradually reduce the age one goes on Medicare. However, there would need to be a buy-in for the missing years of missed payments. Folks 65 years old have been paying into Medicare since they started working, with rates set for folks to start at 65. If someone starts 15 years early as some folks want to do soon, there is the matter of paying 15 years of contributions into the system. One answer is that that there be an additional premium based on age.
=================
AN ASIDE
I submit the primary reasons for US costs being so high is NOT the fact that we don't let the oh so efficient government run the system instead the big bad private sector.

There are many reasons for higher US costs.

1) One of biggest problems is life style issues which cause huge additional costs.
2) Our systems don't deal well with preventive medicine and lifestyle.
3) Our medical systems are poor when deal with chronic illnesses.
4) The decline in true HMO's like Kaiser increases costs, and the opportunity if cost savings.
5) We need more competition when the federal government does the paying and supervising. Medicare should put more products out to bid. The most obvious is for drugs, including the use of drugs from other countries.
6) Everyone does need to have access to care so that emergency rooms aren't overused. In my areas, we have lots of health care walk-centers, as well as more decentralized hospital services.
7) The US has a huge and self inflicted drug addiction problem. The associated medical costs are huge.

This is just a start. The difference between the outcomes of the US system and the Danish system ot the UK system and the Singapore system is a result of so much more than whether we have insurance company options as part of our system.

Yep! All those people who have said "We can't afford universal healthcare if we can't afford the system we're running now that misses lots of people!" have got it backward. Instead, you can't afford universal healthcare because of the for-profit system you're running now! These 2 FACTS alone should make every Republican campaign for universal healthcare.

You spend about DOUBLE what Australia does to live 3 years less, on average. More, for worse outcomes.
View attachment 295415

You not only spend more total, it costs more of your GDP - over 15% in your case while ours is about 8.5%. And we live 3 years longer!
View attachment 295416

Imagine living in a society where every citizen has a Medicare card - and in an emergency doesn't really have to consider which hospital will give them cover - they just go to the nearest public hospital and get treated. When you are sick or injured or in pain, you don't want to have to 'shop around' as the free market guys try to insist. It's a crisis. It's like having multiple different fire insurance agencies rather than the one fire department per state. Some things just work better as a guaranteed public service. Emergency healthcare is one. You can still have private health insurance for luxuries and non-essentials - but emergency life saving healthcare should be government, all the way.

 

[MIDutch]

I certainly hope that trump is stupid enough to run again. A LOT of information, scandals and criminal indictments can be released in 4 years.

Of course, his supporters won't care that he may potentially be in jail for tax fraud, bank fraud, wire fraud, profiteering, racketeering, sexual abuse, rape, etc., and they may still elect him as POTUS and expect him to govern from behind bars.

And the US will deserve everything it gets.