Romans2 (and predestination)

[Ben johnson]

btw , I have a new sig , but i cannot change it at the moment . is cf bugged ?

YES --- we're listening to everything you say...

 

[nobdysfool]

There's a record somewhere? I wanna see that!

You'd be surpised.....

Hah hah hah! That's rather funny!

Then you know how I laugh when you claim that a non-answer from me is de-facto concession. Cuts both ways....

This thread is "Rom2" --- where Paul says, "Do you count on God's patience and kindness and forebearance, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to REPENTANCE? But by your stubborn and unrepentant heart you are storing up WRATH (from God) for yourself in the day of Judgment..."

And somehow you still hold to "predestination", which usually asserts "sovereign-God-gifted-repentance". Instead of understanding Paul's words to be: "God's kindness and patience is S'POSED to make you REPENT, but you won't and it's makin' God MAD!"

I mean no offense; I just can't understand how you can still hold to "predestination".

I hold to predestination because the Bible teaches, it, number one, and because in all of the many attempts you have made to "overturn" it, you haven't even made a mark or a dent. You have uniformly bounced off of it, like it was a stainless stell wall.

The other thing I find strange is your insistence on anthropomorphizing God, with your questionable translation of this passage as "you stubborn refusal is making God MAD". That is not what it says, Ben.

UTILIZES, yes... ...ORDAINS, no! God cannot tempt, cannot cause-to-sin, cannot do anything evil. Can we agree on that?

You're not listening, Ben. If God ordains the sins of evil men, that does not mean that He causes them to sin. It means that He knows they will sin in any given situation, He knows what sin that will be in a given situation, and He ordains the situation so that the sin they commit will serve to further His Plan. He does not cause them to sin, He merely places them in the situation where the sin they commit will serve to further His Purpose. Does that help you understand where I'm coming from? God can and does utilize sin as a tool. That doesn't make Him responsible for it, it shows that He is Sovereign over it.

God caused the Flood. The Flood destroyed (killed) many people. Killing is considered a sin, except in certain situations, is that not so? By your reasoning, God sinned in destroying the world with the Flood. We both know that isn't true.

Last night I had no internet; it just sat there trying to load, for hours. I tried doing a "defrag", but then found other sites worked. I'll get back to those "three Scriptures" (at least one of which I've already fully refuted --- you seem to have missed it).

I saw the weak attempt you made, and it was immediately evident that you have not been listening. You did not refute it at all.

We really need to get something straight here. Just because you answer, and claim to refute, does not mean that refutation has taken place. You have this tendency to make such claims all the time, and that level of refutation exists on.ly in your own mind. If it were truly utterly refuted, there would be no credible answer which could set it aside, or overcome it. Your "refutations" have never risen to that level.

...and I still wanna see that "record"; because it will show that Ben has refuted so many points of Reformed Theology, so many times...

See what I mean? You want to claim refutation as absolute because you say so. Refutation is judged as absolute by outside agreement, not by personal fiat. There is no outside agreement that you have refuted anything. Let's get away from these grandiose claims of "refutation" and just deal with the scriptures.

 

[Ben johnson]

The other thing I find strange is your insistence on anthropomorphizing God, with your questionable translation of this passage as "you stubborn refusal is making God MAD". That is not what it says, Ben.

"Do you take lightly God's patience and kindness and forebearance, not knowing that the kindness of God leads to repentance? But by your stubborn and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and righteous reveleation of the judgment of God, who will render to each man according to his deeds. To those who BY doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and DO NOT seek the truth, but pursue unrighteousness, wrath and indignation."

Our actions are rewarded with eternal life, or God's wrath; Paul says that very clearly. God's kindness is MEANT to lead to repentance --- but stubborn unrepentance makes Him mad.

It is identical to Rom11, where Paul says: "Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who FELL, severity; to you, kindness, if you CONTINUE in His kindness else you TOO will be CUT OFF. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, they will be grafted in again (to His kindness)."

I hold to predestination because the Bible teaches, it, number one, and because in all of the many attempts you have made to "overturn" it, you haven't even made a mark or a dent. You have uniformly bounced off of it, like it was a stainless stell wall.

The score is clearly:
Predestination: 0
Responsible Grace: 100

You're not listening, Ben. If God ordains the sins of evil men, that does not mean that He causes them to sin. It means that He knows they will sin in any given situation, He knows what sin that will be in a given situation, and He ordains the situation so that the sin they commit will serve to further His Plan.

There is a world of difference between "God ordains the situtation where man is tempted to sin", and "God ordains sin".

What you're missing about God is that He doesn't want ANYONE to sin; and sinning is fully a choice, both "to", and "not".

"God tempts no one, but each is tempted when enticed and carried away by his own lust. Then lust conceived births sin, and sin brings death. Do not be deceived, beloved brethren." James1:13-16

He does not cause them to sin, He merely places them in the situation where the sin they commit will serve to further His Purpose.

Two things --- if men are placed where they CANNOT AVOID sin, then their sinning is God's choice.

Secondly --- God hates sin, cannot stand it. How can there be a platform that accepts "God desires that men sin"? How can a God who is perfect, despising-of-sin, have His purpose furthered BY sin?

Does that help you understand where I'm coming from?

I'm afraid not.

God can and does utilize sin as a tool. That doesn't make Him responsible for it, it shows that He is Sovereign over it.

"Responsibility", means "causal". If God places us where we WILL sin, then He is "causal".

"Let he who thinks he stand take heed, lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man. God is faithful, and will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you can endure, but with the temptation will provide a means of escape, that you may be able to endure it." 1Cor10:12-13

You're saying "God places men where we cannot avoid sin".
Paul says "God is faithful and WILL NOT allow us to be placed where we cannot avoid sin".

The warning in 1Cor10, is "be careful NOT to fall" --- it is not "God ordains that some will fall to sin".

Do you see your conflict now?

God caused the Flood. The Flood destroyed (killed) many people. Killing is considered a sin, except in certain situations, is that not so? By your reasoning, God sinned in destroying the world with the Flood. We both know that isn't true.

Water cannot make a choice according to its conscience. Men can....

We really need to get something straight here. Just because you answer, and claim to refute, does not mean that refutation has taken place. You have this tendency to make such claims all the time, and that level of refutation exists only in your own mind. If it were truly utterly refuted, there would be no credible answer which could set it aside, or overcome it. Your "refutations" have never risen to that level.

I feel that "God-ordained-sin" has been "strongly refuted in this post". I know you'll disagree, so the discussion will continue.

See what I mean? You want to claim refutation as absolute because you say so. Refutation is judged as absolute by outside agreement, not by personal fiat. There is no outside agreement that you have refuted anything. Let's get away from these grandiose claims of "refutation" and just deal with the scriptures.

"Outside", meaning what?

God caused the Flood. The Flood destroyed (killed) many people. Killing is considered a sin, except in certain situations, is that not so? By your reasoning, God sinned in destroying the world with the Flood. We both know that isn't true.

There is no law against "killing", Scripture says "thou shalt not murder". His decision to end the lives of those who hated Him, was not unrighteous. Life is His to give, or take.

...but there is no such directive concerning "Him giving/causing/ordaining sin"...

 

[nobdysfool]

"Do you take lightly God's patience and kindness and forebearance, not knowing that the kindness of God leads to repentance? But by your stubborn and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and righteous reveleation of the judgment of God, who will render to each man according to his deeds. To those who BY doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and DO NOT seek the truth, but pursue unrighteousness, wrath and indignation."

Our actions are rewarded with eternal life, or God's wrath; Paul says that very clearly. God's kindness is MEANT to lead to repentance --- but stubborn unrepentance makes Him mad.

It is identical to Rom11, where Paul says: "Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who FELL, severity; to you, kindness, if you CONTINUE in His kindness else you TOO will be CUT OFF. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, they will be grafted in again (to His kindness)."

You seem to have trouble understanding who Paul is speaking to, and who he is speaking about. You tend to blur that line all the time. My point is that you tend to attribute the emotions of men onto God, and think that He is just a bigger, more powerful version of us. That is wrong. God is totally other than what we are.

The score is clearly:
Predestination: 0
Responsible Grace: 100

In your dreams!!!

There is a world of difference between "God ordains the situtation where man is tempted to sin", and "God ordains sin".

What you're missing about God is that He doesn't want ANYONE to sin; and sinning is fully a choice, both "to", and "not".

Unregenerate men do not have the ability to choose not to sin, as in be righteous. Unregenerate men sin like they breathe, i.e. all the time. As I said, God knows what sin(s) an unregenerate man will commit in any situation. It is not a matter of "IF" he will sin, only "what sin(s) he will commit". Knowing that, God can and does bring the situation about in which a given unregenerate man will commit the sin(s) that will further God's Purpose.

"God tempts no one, but each is tempted when enticed and carried away by his own lust. Then lust conceived births sin, and sin brings death. Do not be deceived, beloved brethren." James1:13-16

Two things --- if men are placed where they CANNOT AVOID sin, then their sinning is God's choice.

Secondly --- God hates sin, cannot stand it. How can there be a platform that accepts "God desires that men sin"? How can a God who is perfect, despising-of-sin, have His purpose furthered BY sin? I'm afraid not. "Responsibility", means "causal". If God places us where we WILL sin, then He is "causal".

Ben, you clearly do not have any concept of the Sovereignty of God. Do you believe that God is in absolute control of all things? Logically, your arguments say "no". Does God allow sin, or is sin and all that it causes and corrupts out of God's control? If He allows it, but cannot control it, direct it, or use it to bring about His overall Purpose, then He is doing "damage control", and scrambling to clean up messes that He is powerless to prevent from happening. Is that how you conceive of God?

"Let he who thinks he stand take heed, lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man. God is faithful, and will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you can endure, but with the temptation will provide a means of escape, that you may be able to endure it." 1Cor10:12-13

You're saying "God places men where we cannot avoid sin".
Paul says "God is faithful and WILL NOT allow us to be placed where we cannot avoid sin".

Again, you fail to see who Paul is talking to and about. 1 Cor 10:12-13 is speaking to and about Believers, not the unsaved. You're trying to apply this to all men without exception. God does not provide a means of escape from temptation sin for those who are not His. And Paul is not talking about the Gospel here, he is talking about the Holy Spirit who resides in Believers, and how the Holy Spirit helps them to avoid temptation, and sin. You cannot apply this to all men without exception.

The warning in 1Cor10, is "be careful NOT to fall" --- it is not "God ordains that some will fall to sin".

The context is Believers, not all mankind. If you believe that God does not and cannot utilize the sins of men to bring about His Purpose, then it follows that you MUST believe that Adam and Eve surprised God in the Garden, and He was forced to find a "Plan B". I don't see anything like that in the Bible.

Do you see your conflict now?

The conflict I see is in your failure to understand the context of scriptures, and applying scriptures that refer to Believers to all men, without regard to whether they are saved or not. That's a huge problem for your entire theology, and one you are unwilling to either address or even admit. And it is the very thing that will bring your theology crashing down around your ears.

Water cannot make a choice according to its conscience. Men can....

Oh fer cryin' out loud! The reason God destroyed all mankind except Noah and his family was because of the great wickedness of all men. You say that God has the right and power to kill men for their wickedness, but He cannot control or direct that wickedness for His own purpose? I think you have a problem in your theology you aren't willing to admit....

I feel that "God-ordained-sin" has been "strongly refuted in this post". I know you'll disagree, so the discussion will continue.

I've pointed out some serious flaws in your view. Please take the time to think it through rather than just knee-jerk react.

God caused the Flood. The Flood destroyed (killed) many people. Killing is considered a sin, except in certain situations, is that not so? By your reasoning, God sinned in destroying the world with the Flood. We both know that isn't true.

There is no law against "killing", Scripture says "thou shalt not murder". His decision to end the lives of those who hated Him, was not unrighteous. Life is His to give, or take.

...but there is no such directive concerning "Him giving/causing/ordaining sin"...

A bit of a stretch, Ben. Either God is in control of all things, or He is not. Your view places Him squarely in the "not in control" category.

 

[cygnusx1]

"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the Beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled" (Rev. 17:17). We can not do better than quote here the excellent comments of our esteemed friend, Mr. Walter Scott, upon this verse-

"God works unseen, but not the less truly, in all the political changes of the day. The astute statesman, the clever diplomatist, is simply an agent in the Lord's hands. He knows it not. Self-will and motives of policy may influence to action, but God is steadily working toward an end-to exhibit the heavenly and earthly glories of His Son. Thus, instead of kings and statesmen thwarting God's purpose, they unconsciously forward it. God is not indifferent, but is behind the scenes of human action. The doings of the future ten kings in relation to Babylon and the Beast-the ecclesiastical and secular powers-are not only under the direct control of God, but all is done in fulfillment of His words."



AWP