• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Romans 9

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,731
USA
✟184,857.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
The man without the wedding garments, no one noticed he appeared different.
Until the Master, the Lord shows up and He instantly notices.

What you can get from this, is the man without the wedding garments is as of those in your church who are friends of the church, attending and participating but are not saved, never having been born again. So they still wear the filthy rags of their own self righteousness. That those around that man did not notice is obvious as that even today you would not know the heart and thoughts of another person so would not know they had never been born again regenerated by the Lord and saved. It is God who clothes us with the proper garments to be acceptable to Himself. So the improperly clothed man, to the others senses, they would have expected him to be there and would not be perceived as unusual.

That the improperly clothed man appears with the others and is then separated, cast out shows that at the judgement, (consider the sheep and the goats parable), they were all gathered together and judgement rendered in the presence of them all, so all heard what HE said, and the judgement executed immediately after He spoke.

That the improperly clothed man was speechless, shows he is in shock and without excuse before God, probably such a person thought in their heart they were right before Him, but as this was revealed to him his serious lack and so deep his misunderstanding of God and he became without words to answer back so deep was his surprise.
I gave my explanation to hammster, but he didn't respond to it. However, this parable fits nicely with the "wedding supper of the Lamb" in Rev 19:9. The improperly dressed man got into the banquet hall, unlike the many who refused to come and rejected the invitation. This has an obvious reference to salvation and heaven.

Further, the improper dress denotes the believer who didn't live his life properly and loses out on the very real reward of enjoying the wedding supper of the Lamb. He was thrown out of the banquet hall, not out of the kingdom.

This also clarifies 22:14; many are called, but few are chosen. This means that all believers have been called to faithfulness and obedience, but only the faithful ones are chosen for special privileges and service.

To the reformed, only believers are "called". So they can't really explain how many can be called but only a few are chosen, since they equate being called and chosen.
 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,022
✟117,598.00
Faith
Christian
I gave my explanation to hammster, but he didn't respond to it. However, this parable fits nicely with the "wedding supper of the Lamb" in Rev 19:9. The improperly dressed man got into the banquet hall, unlike the many who refused to come and rejected the invitation. This has an obvious reference to salvation and heaven.

Further, the improper dress denotes the believer who didn't live his life properly and loses out on the very real reward of enjoying the wedding supper of the Lamb. He was thrown out of the banquet hall, not out of the kingdom.

This also clarifies 22:14; many are called, but few are chosen. This means that all believers have been called to faithfulness and obedience, but only the faithful ones are chosen for special privileges and service.

To the reformed, only believers are "called". So they can't really explain how many can be called but only a few are chosen, since they equate being called and chosen.

13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and[a] cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Outer darkness, weeping and teeth gnashing is not the kingdom of God. It is hell.

For reference notice that those who go there are outside of the kingdom of God.
Luke 13:28
New King James Version (NKJV)
28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.
 
Upvote 0

shturt678

Senior Veteran
Feb 1, 2013
5,280
103
Hawaii
✟28,428.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
In Rom.8:29 as to why only a few are "elect" is not even treated here, for our attention is here fixed only on those who are called, ie, are called according to purpose - "predestined" in a very very loose sense.

In Matt.22 as to why only a few are "elect" is fully treated.

"elect" in Rom.8:29 = / = "elect" in Matt.22

Just ol' old Jack's view
 
Upvote 0

janxharris

Veteran
Jun 10, 2010
7,562
55
Essex, UK
Visit site
✟43,897.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
I gave my explanation to hammster, but he didn't respond to it. However, this parable fits nicely with the "wedding supper of the Lamb" in Rev 19:9. The improperly dressed man got into the banquet hall, unlike the many who refused to come and rejected the invitation. This has an obvious reference to salvation and heaven.

The wedding banquet parable is not necessarily the marriage supper.

Further, the improper dress denotes the believer who didn't live his life properly and loses out on the very real reward of enjoying the wedding supper of the Lamb. He was thrown out of the banquet hall, not out of the kingdom.

That cannot be right. All are invited to the kingdom of heaven but few are chosen.

13“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

This also clarifies 22:14; many are called, but few are chosen. This means that all believers have been called to faithfulness and obedience, but only the faithful ones are chosen for special privileges and service.

Same problem.

To the reformed, only believers are "called". So they can't really explain how many can be called but only a few are chosen, since they equate being called and chosen.

So what of the non-believers? If they are not represented by the man without the wedding robes, then they aren't mentioned.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,057
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,858.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
You are making an assumption that is not in the text. If they did not come freely then how did they come?

So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.

kalesate - invite.
And then they were gathered.
I would appreciate it if you would address my specific point:
The king invited anyone. He did not decide in advance that some of them would be incapable of donning the appropriate wedding clothes. If that was the case then he would be guilty of disingenuity.

What am I supposed to address? It sounds like you are countering an argument that I'm not making.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,057
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,858.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
The king told the servants to invite people. The use of 'gathered' does not suddenly abrogate how the servants were to fill the banquet hall.

Is there anywhere in the parable where it says that the guests were there because they accepted the invitation?
 
Upvote 0

janxharris

Veteran
Jun 10, 2010
7,562
55
Essex, UK
Visit site
✟43,897.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Is there anywhere in the parable where it says that the guests were there because they accepted the invitation?

The assumption would be that they came freely. There is no suggestion that they came any other way. You don't force someone to attend a wedding banquet.

You are looking for something that is not there to fit your theology.
 
Upvote 0

janxharris

Veteran
Jun 10, 2010
7,562
55
Essex, UK
Visit site
✟43,897.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Is there anywhere in the parable where it says that the guests were there because they accepted the invitation?

The king told the servants to invite people. The use of 'gathered' does not suddenly abrogate how the servants were to fill the banquet hall.

True or false?
 
Upvote 0

Jack Terrence

Fighting the good fight
Feb 15, 2013
2,917
202
✟39,691.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Further, the improper dress denotes the believer who didn't live his life properly and loses out on the very real reward of enjoying the wedding supper of the Lamb. He was thrown out of the banquet hall, not out of the kingdom.
Lord have mercy on FG2! The man comes into the banquet not having on the clothes of Christ's righteousness and FG2 says that he is saved.

Shame!!
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,819
1,925
✟996,220.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I said that issues concerning 'circumcision, food requirements and holy days' are not found in those verses.
I thought you were referring to the whole, Jew / Gentile Christian issue (their being very separate under the Old Law).

How is Isaac a Jew? He isn't.
Good point, but Isaac and Jacob are children of the promise so would the Jews in Roman including the Christian Jews feel they had been born into at physical birth the children of the promises to Abraham and very much kin to and related to Jacob and Isaac?

Would the Gentile Christians feel they had been born into at physical birth the promises given to Abraham or would they feel more like Ishmael and Esau, left out of the promises?

We know from Galatians 4:22-24; 28:
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Isaac and Jacob represent the covenant of promise and Ishmael and Esau the covenant of the law.
There is a huge problem with taking what Paul says to the Galatians and applying it “directly” to what Paul is saying to the Romans (also remember the Romans would not have had the Galatian letter). Paul specifically states to the Galatians: “24 These things are being taken figuratively…” and then Paul goes on to use Sarah to represent the freedom (Spirituality) under the promise and Hagar to represent the slavery under the Law (fleshly control). Does Paul tell the readers in Rome “These things are being taken figuratively”?

In Gal. Paul talks about the two “women” (one a slave and one free)representing represent “freedom and slavery” Gal. 4: 24”…The women represent two covenants.”, but in Romans Paul does not mention Hagar and also uses one woman Rebecca to convey his idea, so could Rebecca represent both freedom and slavery?

Could Paul have used Rebecca in what he was trying to get across figuratively to the Galatians (if so how), because if Paul could not, than Paul is teaching a different message in Roman’s 9?



Okay, I see where you are going with this. As things stand, I disagree with you as to whom Paul is addressing his 'Is God unjust' to. You say Gentile Christians but I think it was Jewish. Verse 12a says, 'not by works but by him who calls.' Such a verse would offend Jews but not Gentiles because we know that it was Israel that pursued righteousness through works of the law (vv. 30-32). Also, in the very next chapter, Paul says:
Think again about this “not by works but by him who calls.” Why would it in the least offend the Jews that their Father Jacob was selected by God prior to Jacob’s birth (any works being done by Jacob)? In lots of ways Esau is the much better person than Jacob up until Jacob flees for his life, so why did God not take that into consideration? It appears Esau (like Gentile in the first century) could not have done anything to be considered a child of Abraham’s promises from birth, so is that fair to Esau and Esau’s descendants (Gentiles)?

I know this is difficult but to understand any New Testament letter we have to try and place ourselves in the position of the persons being addressed at the time to understand how they would understand the Letter that was written to them.



Romans 10:1-4
Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Christ fulfilled the Law.

The Law is perfectly wonderful.

The “law” itself is not the problem , but salvation by works is a huge problem, since salvation comes by faith.

What Paul addresses in Ro. 10: 1-4 is not the answer to the questions in Ro. 9 Paul has been discussing, but Paul does show both the Jews and Gentile Christians that at that time all the Jewish people by birth are not in a saved situation (they are having big problems, just as big as the Gentiles) even though they were made from birth with a very special purpose.



So Paul telling them it had nothing to do with works was a slap in the face. We know from Paul's summation in Romans 9:30-32 that faith was the key to righteousness. Verse 30 begins with, 'What shall we say then?', so we know that all that he has written before demonstrates what he concludes.
Do you agree Paul is using an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”? This makes it more like a dialog with his students than a lecture?

If this is true than Paul is addressing the “why not” to his questions and there are follow up questions to the one question in Ro 9:

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

20…‘Why did you make me like this?’

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles,…

32 Why not?...





Anyone believing in Christ are heirs.
Are they “heirs” to all the promises made to Abraham?


I'm not sure why KJV is a problem.
Why a Gentile Christian? Surely it would be the Jewish Christian who would ask since he has been told that no amount of works will make him righteous? It does not depend on human desire or effort they are told.
Again Paul is writing to Christians, so how could a devout Jew believing in salvation by works, become a Christian without faith?

The Christian Jews would have come to humbly believe (trust) that Jesus was the Messiah and son of God that died for their sins so they could have forgiveness as a pure gift of charity. They would not be committed to a “salvation by works” with that believe, but those that were still just Jews might, but even the Jewish Christians might feel you still had to do these “good” works of the Law (the moral laws where very much right for them to do). These Jews could confuse Jewish tradition, with God’s desire for all people.

Again as best you can, put yourself in first century Rome as a Christian before any Apostles got there, with a large Jewish Christian group and having only the OT scripture to reference and maybe some very inspired Jewish Christians that had fled from Jerusalem persecution.

Would you as an uncircumcised, pig farmer, that did not even know your biological father and contracted to work on the Sabbath, feel a little “inferior” to the Jewish Christians that were raise up in an extremely moral family, circumcised already, avoided working on the Sabbath, and kept “clean” by God’s Biblical standard?


I am a little bemused by your mixing 2 Timothy 2 with Romans 9. I will need to look at it further.

I am not trying to “mix” 2 Tim 2 and Ro 9. I am only trying to define the words “dishonorable vessel”. The “dis” in front of the honorable means it is “not”, but does not mean like we use dishonorable to mean totally worthless or blatantly shameful when talking about a vessel. It also has to do with the way the vessel is being used (the purpose). The reason for bring up 2 Tim. 2 is because Paul is talking again about honorable and dishonorable vessels, yet in 2 Tim 2 it is obvious the dishonorable vessels would be better translated “common vessels”, so that is the reason I sent you there.


One of the questions Paul is imaginarily being asked is: 20…‘Why did you make me like this?’

If you were a first century “Jewish Christian” before the destruction of Jerusalem, would you have any feeling about being less prepared than others for the life of a Christian?

If you were a pagan gentile, raised in a very immoral “family”, not knowing anything about God’s word, would you feel a little unprepared for what you are being asked to do?
 
Upvote 0

shturt678

Senior Veteran
Feb 1, 2013
5,280
103
Hawaii
✟28,428.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Lord have mercy on FG2! The man comes into the banquet not having on the clothes of Christ's righteousness and FG2 says that he is saved.

Shame!!

This is a rough parable not that I have it, ie, Matt.22:1-14. The parable reveals this great act of election. It shows us how some are chosen, how the rest could not be chosen.

The first are those who never believed, the last those who pretended to believe, deceived believers, and those that fell from the faith like Judas.

My end point: This parable unveils the Kingdom of God with those in "outwardly", and those in "inwardly" upon one's passing.

My good ol' buddy Martin Chemniz nailed this one,

Just ol' old Jack, your friend Jack
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,057
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,858.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Now you are in denial friend. In verse 28 Paul said that all things work together for the good of those who are "CALLED" according to God's purpose. This is the SAME word used in Matthew 22. Then in verse 30 he said that whom He "CALLED" He also justified. This is a DIFFERENT word. Therefore, the two words are interchangeable.

Then why did the king not approve of some? Those who had no proper clothing shouldn't even have been admitted into the feast. They should have been turned away at the door.

Consider the parable of the dragnet. The bad fish were separated from the good fish by the messengers. But the servants of the king did not separate those who had no proper clothing from those who were properly clothed.

This proves that the parable was about the poor stewardship of the Jewish rulers as was the parable which immediately precedes. You do not help Calvinism by being stubborn.

If they can be used interchangeably, why are many called, but few chosen? In Romans 8, the called are justified.
 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,022
✟117,598.00
Faith
Christian
If they can be used interchangeably, why are many called, but few chosen? In Romans 8, the called are justified.

For added emphasis
Rev 17
13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings;

and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful

In order to be with Christ, we must be 3 things, called, chosen and faithful.
 
Upvote 0

janxharris

Veteran
Jun 10, 2010
7,562
55
Essex, UK
Visit site
✟43,897.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Good point, but Isaac and Jacob are children of the promise so would the Jews in Roman including the Christian Jews feel they had been born into at physical birth the children of the promises to Abraham and very much kin to and related to Jacob and Isaac?

Would the Gentile Christians feel they had been born into at physical birth the promises given to Abraham or would they feel more like Ishmael and Esau, left out of the promises?

Okay - we agree that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Any man, without exception, can be a child of Abraham.
 
Upvote 0

janxharris

Veteran
Jun 10, 2010
7,562
55
Essex, UK
Visit site
✟43,897.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
There is a huge problem with taking what Paul says to the Galatians and applying it “directly” to what Paul is saying to the Romans (also remember the Romans would not have had the Galatian letter). Paul specifically states to the Galatians: “24 These things are being taken figuratively…” and then Paul goes on to use Sarah to represent the freedom (Spirituality) under the promise and Hagar to represent the slavery under the Law (fleshly control). Does Paul tell the readers in Rome “These things are being taken figuratively”?

In Gal. Paul talks about the two “women” (one a slave and one free)representing represent “freedom and slavery” Gal. 4: 24”…The women represent two covenants.”, but in Romans Paul does not mention Hagar and also uses one woman Rebecca to convey his idea, so could Rebecca represent both freedom and slavery?

Could Paul have used Rebecca in what he was trying to get across figuratively to the Galatians (if so how), because if Paul could not, than Paul is teaching a different message in Roman’s 9?

Okay - I hope that the following might address the points that you rightfully bring up. I am not asserting that what follows is the correct understanding of Romans 9, but just an attempt at dealing with the difficulties it seems to present.
6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”
It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. Not that Isaac himself was guaranteed salvation because he, as opposed to Ishmael, was chosen to be the blood-line through whom Christ would come. Let's be clear, Isaac had faith (Hebrews 11) because he chose to, not for any other reason.
8In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.​
You are not to be considered a child of God through physical descent. The promise was to Christ.
9For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.” 10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”​
Paul is underlining his central point - God chose those through whom Christ would come. The promise would not come through the offspring of Esau.

Now, it is clear to me, that Paul, in establishing this, is also establishing a principle which applies to an individual's salvation as well. Jacob did not do anything to merit the fact that Christ would come through his line. God chose. This is paralleled in the fact a man will not be saved through works of the law. God chose...that is, God chose to provide salvation in the person of Jesus Christ - and since faith in Christ is not a work, then we are not meriting salvation, but become included as heirs in God's choice...Jesus.
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
God had every right to do it this way.
16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
God is merciful to those in Christ, and they are in Christ because of faith. Faith is not a work. Pharaoh, like all men, was rebellious, but even if he had been less evil, it would not have availed him of salvation. Salvation is only through faith. Paul also confirms that willful rebellion against God produces hardening. Again, though, we are not saved through being 'good'.
19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?​
All men, at some point, resist God's will. Only God's elect, Christ, and those in him would equate to pottery made for special purposes.
22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?​
Paul makes the same point.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

janxharris

Veteran
Jun 10, 2010
7,562
55
Essex, UK
Visit site
✟43,897.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Think again about this “not by works but by him who calls.” Why would it in the least offend the Jews that their Father Jacob was selected by God prior to Jacob’s birth (any works being done by Jacob)? In lots of ways Esau is the much better person than Jacob up until Jacob flees for his life, so why did God not take that into consideration? It appears Esau (like Gentile in the first century) could not have done anything to be considered a child of Abraham’s promises from birth, so is that fair to Esau and Esau’s descendants (Gentiles)?

I know this is difficult but to understand any New Testament letter we have to try and place ourselves in the position of the persons being addressed at the time to understand how they would understand the Letter that was written to them.

If the question, 'Is God unjust?', relates to whether it was unjust of God to choose those through whom Christ would come and, also, in the same way, how God chose to provide the provision of salvation for individuals, then it would offend.
 
Upvote 0

janxharris

Veteran
Jun 10, 2010
7,562
55
Essex, UK
Visit site
✟43,897.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Do you agree Paul is using an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”? This makes it more like a dialog with his students than a lecture?

If this is true than Paul is addressing the “why not” to his questions and there are follow up questions to the one question in Ro 9:

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

20…‘Why did you make me like this?’

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles,…

32 Why not?...

I agree.
 
Upvote 0

janxharris

Veteran
Jun 10, 2010
7,562
55
Essex, UK
Visit site
✟43,897.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Are they “heirs” to all the promises made to Abraham?

Abraham was promised:

Genesis 12:7a
And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land

Genesis 22:15-18
And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

So yes to your question.
 
Upvote 0

janxharris

Veteran
Jun 10, 2010
7,562
55
Essex, UK
Visit site
✟43,897.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Again Paul is writing to Christians, so how could a devout Jew believing in salvation by works, become a Christian without faith?

The Christian Jews would have come to humbly believe (trust) that Jesus was the Messiah and son of God that died for their sins so they could have forgiveness as a pure gift of charity. They would not be committed to a “salvation by works” with that believe, but those that were still just Jews might, but even the Jewish Christians might feel you still had to do these “good” works of the Law (the moral laws where very much right for them to do). These Jews could confuse Jewish tradition, with God’s desire for all people.

Again as best you can, put yourself in first century Rome as a Christian before any Apostles got there, with a large Jewish Christian group and having only the OT scripture to reference and maybe some very inspired Jewish Christians that had fled from Jerusalem persecution.

We don't know how many of the Christians at Rome included some Jews who still held to works of the law, even though they had faith.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0