Romans 9

[janxharris]

Interesting theory. Where does he get his "material"?

I don't know.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Then how can God, as wisdom personified, say:

Proverbs 1:24 “Because I called and you refused,
I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;
25 And you neglected all my counsel
And did not want my reproof;

These be the Elect sir. Note the verse which immediately precedes.

"Surely I will pour out my Spirit on you; I will make my words known to you."

The Elect may refuse God, but not ultimately or finally. Now see it in context:

23 Surely I will pour out my Spirit on you; I will make my words known to you.
24 Because I called and you refused. I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;
25 And you neglected all my counsel and did not want my reproof."

And in Romans 10:21 But as for Israel He says, “All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.

Paul included Himself. Was he of the Elect, or not? You guys speak as if the Elect are incapable of resisting God at all. They may indeed resist God, but not ultimately or finally.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Interesting theory. Where does he get his "material"?

Janx says that he doesn't know where I get the theory that the elect are regenerated in the womb. He says this after I have proved it a thousand times. Isaac was born of promise and of the Spirit from Sarah's womb (Galatians 4:21-31). Now Paul said that we are children "even as Isaac." Therefore, we are born of promise and of the Spirit from the womb.

The Galatians were child-heirs BEFORE they came to faith in Christ (Galatians 4:1-6). Therefore, they were regenerated before they came to faith.

 

[Jack Terrence]

General call = universal call.

So where does the scripture call to salvation those who do not thirst or hunger?

 

[Jack Terrence]

John 6:47-51
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.​

The "anyone may eat" are only those who believe in Him.

Jesus' version of the gospel call: Anyone who believes may eat.

Janx's version of the gospel call: Anyone may eat whether he believes or not.

 

[Hammster]

So where does the scripture call to salvation those who do not thirst or hunger?

Wherever there is a command to preach the gospel.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Wherever there is a command to preach the gospel.

That doesn't mean that God is calling those who do not thirst. He calls only the thirsty. This is what John Gill taught. Do you admire Gill? I certainly do.

The fact that those who do not thirst are present and consequently fall under the hearing of the gospel does not constitute a call of God to them.

Example: Every Communion Sunday our Pastor calls believers to partake of the elements. The fact that unbelievers are present does not constitute an invitation to them to partake.

As the Pastor says, "Believers may partake," so God says, "The thirsty may come." Whether others are present is non-relevant.

Paul explicitly said that those whom God "called" are justified and glorified with no differentiation of various kinds of calls.

 

[harrisrose77]

Janx says that he doesn't know where I get the theory that the elect are regenerated in the womb. He says this after I have proved it a thousand times. Isaac was born of promise and of the Spirit from Sarah's womb (Galatians 4:21-31). Now Paul said that we are children "even as Isaac." Therefore, we are born of promise and of the Spirit from the womb.

The Galatians were child-heirs BEFORE they came to faith in Christ (Galatians 4:1-6). Therefore, they were regenerated before they came to faith.

Sorry.

 

[janxharris]

Janx says that he doesn't know where I get the theory that the elect are regenerated in the womb. He says this after I have proved it a thousand times. Isaac was born of promise and of the Spirit from Sarah's womb (Galatians 4:21-31). Now Paul said that we are children "even as Isaac." Therefore, we are born of promise and of the Spirit from the womb.

The Galatians were child-heirs BEFORE they came to faith in Christ (Galatians 4:1-6). Therefore, they were regenerated before they came to faith.

Ephesians 1:13,14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.​

That does not happen in the womb.

 

[harrisrose77]

Sorry for being harsh everyone. Please pray for me, I've been in the wrong place, with much sadness.
I won't be making anymore comments.

 

[janxharris]

The "anyone may eat" are only those who believe in Him.

That you deny that anyone can believe is evident.

Jesus' version of the gospel call: Anyone who believes may eat.

Yes, but if it is the case that only those predestined before the foundation of the world would believe then Jesus is guilty of monstrous disingenuity.

Janx's version of the gospel call: Anyone may eat whether he believes or not.

No. Anyone may eat, for anyone can believe. Faith is not a work.

If faith is work, how is it that Paul distinguishes it from salvation by works in Romans 9:30-32. The former leads to righteousness, but the later does not.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Janx says that he doesn't know where I get the theory that the elect are regenerated in the womb. He says this after I have proved it a thousand times. Isaac was born of promise and of the Spirit from Sarah's womb (Galatians 4:21-31). Now Paul said that we are children "even as Isaac." Therefore, we are born of promise and of the Spirit from the womb.

Gal 4:21-31
21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27For it is written,
“Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.”
28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30But what does the Scripture say?
“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”
31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

I think you are mistaken. Paul didn't anything about anyone regenerated in the womb. Isaac was a "child of promise" because his parents were barren and God promised them a child. And they believed God. And "we", meaning believers, are God's children because of our faith. Jn 1:12, Gal3:26

The Galatians were child-heirs BEFORE they came to faith in Christ (Galatians 4:1-6). Therefore, they were regenerated before they came to faith.

Gal 4:1-6
1Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. 3So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

I think you are mistaken again. There is nothing here about being "child-heirs" before they believed. In fact, v.5 is clear that we are NOT children of God UNTIL we receive it. And we know HOW we receive it; by faith. Jn 1:12, Gal 3:26.

 

[Jack Terrence]

That you deny that anyone can believe is evident.

I have not denied that at all and you know it. The call is made to those who are thirsty and not to those who can thirst. Revelation 22:17 offers the water of life to "him that thirsts" (present indicative).

No. Anyone may eat, for anyone can believe.

Wow! What falsehood!

An unbeliever may NOT eat. The offer to eat is made to those who believe and not to those who can believe.

Jesus' version: "Whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

Janx's version: "Whosoever can believe in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

[janxharris]

I have not denied that at all and you know it. The call is made to those who are thirsty and not to those who can thirst. Revelation 22:17 offers the water of life to "him that thirsts" (present indicative).

I know that you think the God predetermined to not regenerate some men so therefore they are without access to salvation. The bread of life is not for them to eat. I think that kind of doctrine only sits well with oneself if one thinks one is of the elect. It is a sobering thought, though, when one considers that Judas was given authority to heal, drive out demons and preach the gospel. He was sent out as a sheep among wolves and he was given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven. That is quite a record. But we know what happened to him, don't we?

By the way, why was a reprobate given knowledge of these secrets, 'but not (to) them'? (Matthew 13:11). Who are 'them'? Are they reprobates? If so, who are the group that was given to know the secrets?

Wow! What falsehood!

An unbeliever may NOT eat. The offer to eat is made to those who believe and not to those who can believe.

You misunderstand me.

No, the offer to eat is made to anyone.
But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.

Eating the bread of life IS believing in Christ.

Jesus' version: "Whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

Janx's version: "Whosoever can believe in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

As I said, you misunderstood me.

Whosoever believes in Him (and nobody was consigned to a fate of not being able to believe) shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Hammster]

That doesn't mean that God is calling those who do not thirst. He calls only the thirsty. This is what John Gill taught. Do you admire Gill? I certainly do.

The fact that those who do not thirst are present and consequently fall under the hearing of the gospel does not constitute a call of God to them.

Example: Every Communion Sunday our Pastor calls believers to partake of the elements. The fact that unbelievers are present does not constitute an invitation to them to partake.

As the Pastor says, "Believers may partake," so God says, "The thirsty may come." Whether others are present is non-relevant.

Paul explicitly said that those whom God "called" are justified and glorified with no differentiation of various kinds of calls.

It's a different word for call in Romans and in Matthew. They aren't the same thing.

 

[shturt678]

Janx says that he doesn't know where I get the theory that the elect are regenerated in the womb. He says this after I have proved it a thousand times. Isaac was born of promise and of the Spirit from Sarah's womb (Galatians 4:21-31). Now Paul said that we are children "even as Isaac." Therefore, we are born of promise and of the Spirit from the womb.

Only addressing the obvious, ie, "Spirit" in v.28 is inferior, ie, "spirit" contexually. Definitely not from the womb in this illustration.

The Galatians were child-heirs BEFORE they came to faith in Christ (Galatians 4:1-6). Therefore, they were regenerated before they came to faith.

"heir as a minor" under the age of 14, ie, spiritual inheritance. Definitely not regenerated before they came to faith.

Just ol' old Jack trying to help

btw circumcision for 8 day olders was the infants actual seal as you already understand, ie, faith prior to for adults of course. Holy Spirit worked from the outside in during the O.T., and after Pentecost, came inside except for the miraculous indwellings during the 1st century.

 

[shturt678]

It's a different word for call in Romans and in Matthew. They aren't the same thing.

 

[Jack Terrence]

You misunderstand me.

No, the offer to eat is made to anyone.
But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.

So you are saying that an unbeliever may eat? You no longer have the gospel.

The gospel according to Jesus: "Blessed are they that hunger, for they shall be filled."

The gospel according to Janx: "Blessed is anyone though he may not hunger, for he shall be filled."

The gospel call is restricted to those who hunger and thirst. Even the Elect person is not called UNTIL he hungers.

 

[Jack Terrence]

It's a different word for call in Romans and in Matthew. They aren't the same thing.

According to Strong's the word in Matthew means "to invite." And the word in Romans means "to bid" which is the same thing.

"Whom He bids (invites), them he also justified."

ALL whom God calls will be justified.

Addition: The word in Matthew is the SAME word in Romans 8:28 (Strong's #2822).

 

[janxharris]

So you are saying that an unbeliever may eat? You no longer have the gospel.

Which bit of: Eating the bread of life IS believing in Christ (which is what I wrote) is difficulty to understand?

The gospel according to Jesus: "Blessed are they that hunger, for they shall be filled."

The gospel according to Janx: "Blessed is anyone though he may not hunger, for he shall be filled."

I am not saying that.

The gospel call is restricted to those who hunger and thirst. Even the Elect person is not called UNTIL he hungers.

And you assert that the reprobates have been programmed to never hunger.

By the way, why was a reprobate given knowledge of these secrets, 'but not (to) them'? (Matthew 13:11). Who are 'them'? Are they reprobates? If so, who are the group that was given to know the secrets?