Romans 8:29-30 ~ Am I re-Calvinizing?

[ChristIsSovereign]

"For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified, He also glorified." (Taken from the HCSB.)

Well, I formally rejected Calvinism in 2017 but ended up losing my faith altogether. That took a deadly turn and I almost became a criminal. God delivered me from that lifestyle and brought me back to Christianity wholesale. (Not like I'm divinely cured of all my struggles; I still wrestle with a lot that I ought not to feel.)

My rejection of Calvinism was based on the free will argument, of course. While I never truly believed in absolute free will, I allowed enough leeway so that I could believe in prevenient grace over the believer's life. I thought that God was offering me prevenient grace a lot of times, but was it actually irresistible grace?

I re-read this verse after I came out of the shower and I reached the same conclusion I did when I first embraced Calvinism. This verse, again, destroyed my Arminianism just in the last thirty minutes. Deja vu.

I do not want to embrace my prideful Calvinist attitude that I had many months ago. Yet this verse convinces me of the validity of Calvinism theologically. Yet I find that many Calvinists get all prideful over their 'theological superiority' and that's something I balk at.

This verse is Calvinist. There is no other way to say it. God chose us in Him. I cannot twist this verse to support any form of Arminianism. I believe what the Bible says.

 

[anna ~ grace]

No, it's a Biblical verse. Calvin read it, saw one thing, and ran with it. If I isolate enough verses, I can formulate any massive number of potential theologies around a perceived meaning to the text.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

No, it's a Biblical verse. Calvin read it, saw one thing, and ran with it. If I isolate enough verses, I can formulate any massive number of potential theologies around a perceived meaning to the text.

I try to harmonize individual doctrines in verses, the context itself, and how it somehow harmonizes with the rest of the Bible in that exact manner, harmonizing with individual doctrines in verses and harmonizing with the context.

You have to say that the confessional Reformed Christians are consistent in their doctrine.

 

[Radagast]

I do not want to embrace my prideful Calvinist attitude that I had many months ago. Yet this verse convinces me of the validity of Calvinism theologically. Yet I find that many Calvinists get all prideful over their 'theological superiority' and that's something I balk at.

This verse is Calvinist. There is no other way to say it. God chose us in Him. I cannot twist this verse to support any form of Arminianism. I believe what the Bible says.

Yes, that verse is Calvinist (for my Catholic friends, please substitute the word "Thomist"). There's no getting around it.

However, there is nothing there to feel "prideful" about. God picked us up like garbage out of the gutter, and set to work cleaning us up and making us nice (Ephesians 5:25-27). Praise be to Him, not to us.

 

[Radagast]

You have to say that the confessional Reformed Christians are consistent in their doctrine.

Well, yes.

 

[anna ~ grace]

I try to harmonize individual doctrines in verses, the context itself, and how it somehow harmonizes with the rest of the Bible in that exact manner, harmonizing with individual doctrines in verses and harmonizing with the context.

You have to say that the confessional Reformed Christians are consistent in their doctrine.

Right, but so are Muslims, but that doesn't neccesarily make either one correct. There's a certain creepy logic behind genocide, too. And abortion. Doesn't make either thing right. Or of God. Satan can be logical, too.

What is interesting is that you seem to be approaching theology as a math equation.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Yes, that verse is Calvinist (for my Catholic friends, please substitute the word "Thomist"). There's no getting around it.

However, there is nothing there to feel "prideful" about. God picked us up like garbage out of the gutter, and set to work cleaning us up and making us nice (Ephesians 5:25-27). Praise be to Him, not to us.

Yeah, I am a 4.5 point Calvinist if I take that verse for what it actually says, since 1 John 2:2 doesn't exactly fit pure 5 point Calvinism. I prefer to harmonize every Bible verse instead of holding a fully logical system just to negate the meaning of even one verse.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Right, but so are Muslims, but that doesn't neccesarily make either one correct. There's a certain creepy logic behind genocide, too. And abortion. Doesn't make either thing right. Or of God. Satan can be logical, too.

What is interesting is that you seem to be approaching theology as a math equation.

I used to be really into math and find theology to be a religious science in a way. I like to understand the inner workings of Christian theology. I believe in it, therefore I want to INVESTIGATE it. (LOL)

 

[anna ~ grace]

I used to be really into math and find theology to be a religious science in a way. I like to understand the inner workings of Christian theology. I believe in it, therefore I want to INVESTIGATE it. (LOL)

Be careful. I agree that theology is endlessly fascinating. But true theology stems from love.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Be careful. I agree that theology is endlessly fascinating. But true theology stems from love.

I believe true theology stems from Scripture. I also believe that Scripture interprets Scripture, so if two verses don't seem to exactly harmonize, I resolve it by deciphering the context of both and fitting it together to make the apparent contradiction not a contradiction at all.

e.g. Paul says we are saved by grace alone, yet James says that faith without works is dead.

Personally, I resolved the issue by saying that we are saved by grace alone but we demonstrate our inward grace through outward works.

 

[anna ~ grace]

I believe true theology stems from Scripture. I also believe that Scripture interprets Scripture, so if two verses don't seem to exactly harmonize, I resolve it by deciphering the context of both and fitting it together to make the apparent contradiction not a contradiction at all.

e.g. Paul says we are saved by grace alone, yet James says that faith without works is dead.

Personally, I resolved the issue by saying that we are saved by grace alone but we demonstrate our inward grace through outward works.

Ok. That is one potentially true possibility. Whew. I still strongly suggest that you give this a break for tonight. Log off, love God. He is not an equation. He is the Creator.

 

[Radagast]

What is interesting is that you seem to be approaching theology as a math equation.

Theology can and should be approached logically. Indeed, that's what St Thomas Aquinas did.

Of course, theology should not only approached logically. If it doesn't affect the heart, it's dry and dead.

 

[Radagast]

Personally, I resolved the issue by saying that we are saved by grace alone but we demonstrate our inward grace through outward works.

That is the standard Calvinist resolution, yes.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

That is the standard Calvinist resolution, yes.

I made a mini-study on that certain James verse. 'Let Us Not Be Like the Demons'

 

[Radagast]

I made a mini-study on that certain James verse. 'Let Us Not Be Like the Demons'

Good!

I would encourage you to read good books on theology -- "good" meaning solidly Biblical and not too dry/intellectual. John Piper, maybe.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Good!

I would encourage you to read good books on theology -- "good" meaning solidly Biblical and not too dry/intellectual. John Piper, maybe.

John Piper is great, along with John MacArthur. I also have Calvin's Institutes.

How do you resolve the concept that God foreordains all and yet we can pray to Him?

 

[Radagast]

John Piper is great, along with John MacArthur. I also have Calvin's Institutes.

The two Johns are great. Personally, I'm not 100% thrilled by Calvin himself -- I think other people explain Calvinism better.

How do you resolve the concept that God foreordains all and yet we can pray to Him?

The prayers themselves are also foreseen and foreordained and taken account of by God as part of His plan.

That is, it might be the case that God foreordained that He would heal Mrs X from a disease, and that you would pray for her healing, and that God would heal her in part because of your prayer.

Of course, that does not rule out compatibilist versions of free will on out part.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

"For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified, He also glorified." (Taken from the HCSB.)

Well, I formally rejected Calvinism in 2017 but ended up losing my faith altogether. That took a deadly turn and I almost became a criminal. God delivered me from that lifestyle and brought me back to Christianity wholesale. (Not like I'm divinely cured of all my struggles; I still wrestle with a lot that I ought not to feel.)

My rejection of Calvinism was based on the free will argument, of course. While I never truly believed in absolute free will, I allowed enough leeway so that I could believe in prevenient grace over the believer's life. I thought that God was offering me prevenient grace a lot of times, but was it actually irresistible grace?

I re-read this verse after I came out of the shower and I reached the same conclusion I did when I first embraced Calvinism. This verse, again, destroyed my Arminianism just in the last thirty minutes. Deja vu.

I do not want to embrace my prideful Calvinist attitude that I had many months ago. Yet this verse convinces me of the validity of Calvinism theologically. Yet I find that many Calvinists get all prideful over their 'theological superiority' and that's something I balk at.

This verse is Calvinist. There is no other way to say it. God chose us in Him. I cannot twist this verse to support any form of Arminianism. I believe what the Bible says.

One of many ways the Lord humbles me is through prayer. He also does it through my wife, on a regular basis. We all struggle, they're just not all communicated here, and probably best that way. Great news brother, may the Lord continue to bless you!

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

How do you resolve the concept that God foreordains all and yet we can pray to Him?

If I may also attempt a brief answer for some variation, one way I deal with is in the Creator-creation distinction, the differences between the knowledge of God and his creation. As Paul say's; we see as through a glass darkly, or we see as though gazing upon our bride through the filter of a veil. Personally I think I see as though looking at tea in a teabag, yeah not so fantastic. Already a reason to pray!

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

If I may also attempt a brief answer for some variation, one way I deal with is in the Creator-creation distinction, the differences between the knowledge of God and his creation. As Paul say's; we see as through a glass darkly, or we see as though gazing upon our bride through the filter of a veil. Personally I think I see as though looking at tea in a teabag, yeah not so fantastic. Already a reason to pray!

Keep me in your prayers; re-Calvinizing and not being proud is going to be tolling on my psyche.