Romans 7 and 8 without confusing verses

[CharismaticLady]

Yes everyone reads/listens to the gospel for the first time and applies it to themselves but that changes nothing I said. The struggles that Paul had with sin vs. law in Rom 7 was that after he was under the law or before? Why would Paul be struggling with sin before he accepted the law?

Romans 7:17-22
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:​

A sinner a slave to sin could not care less about the law whether his actions were evil, etc.vs. 19. A sinner would not know that no good thing dwells in them. vs. 18. A sinner would not be aware of any struggle between good and evil vs. 18.

I'm not sure if you understand that Paul was speaking to those who know under the law - the Mosaic law. Romans 7:1. That is what chapter 7 is all about. Describing what it was like trying to keep the Mosaic law in your own strength like they had been doing for 1300 years. But the law by itself did not bring about true righteousness. Why? Verse 13 tells us because of our inherent sin in our nature. The mind knew what to do, but the sin in us wanted the opposite. It was a constant struggle warring between the two.

Chapter 8 shows us the difference Christ did as the solution. He condemned sin in the flesh. IOW He took us out of the sin nature, and made us partakers of the divine nature 2 Peter 1:2-4. That is how 1 John 3:5 is not a myth. He was manifest to take away (not just cover it up by His blood, but leaving it there while we keep sinning) our sin, and in Him there is no sin.

Romans 8:2-4
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

We must always be in the Spirit. Paul commands us to never quench the Spirit.

Many Christians who sin say that Jesus freed us from the law. But a true Christians knows first hand that He freed them from sin.

John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

 

[dcalling]

One problem I see with many who relate themselves to the struggle with sin of Romans 7 is there is a chapter break before they see that Romans 8:2 is freedom from the struggle with sin. They even believe chapter 7 is Paul's constant struggle with sin as an apostle! But there is no struggle when a person has been born again of the Spirit as Paul was. But there was a struggle under the law when he was still in the unborn-again flesh, without the Spirit of Christ in him. Those on the forum who relate so much to the struggle may be in the process of being saved, but haven't completely surrendered unto true repentance in order to receive the infilling Holy Spirit and be saved.

I've taken the liberty to just show a condensed rearranged version of Romans 7 and 8 without the chapter break and the confusing misinterpreted description of the life of struggle under the law. I have not changed wording, just dropped verses and rearranged verses to show the true power of the Spirit. I hope this edit of Scripture will help those who have twisted this portion of Scripture to mean a Christian will always struggle with sin, even with the Holy Spirit in them.

Romans 7 and 8 without the struggle of those under the law

12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

If you read carefully, you will see that in 12 he is talking about how we by ourselves can't over come sin, and in the next he is talking about how we are set free, but he did not say that is without struggle

So we still have struggle with sin, just we now have the power to not be weak, which is from the Holy Spirit.

 

[CharismaticLady]

If you read carefully, you will see that in 12 he is talking about how we by ourselves can't over come sin, and in the next he is talking about how we are set free, but he did not say that is without struggle

So we still have struggle with sin, just we now have the power to not be weak, which is from the Holy Spirit.

Of course we cannot overcome sin on our own. That's the who purpose of writing Romans 7. Romans 8 is about the Spirit. We must be born again of the Spirit.

 

[JIMINZ]

If you read carefully, you will see that in 12 he is talking about how we by ourselves can't over come sin, and in the next he is talking about how we are set free, but he did not say that is without struggle

So we still have struggle with sin, just we now have the power to not be weak, which is from the Holy Spirit.

That kinda goes both ways doesn't it.

He didn't say there was a struggle.

That is something you manage to do all on your own.

 

[JIMINZ]

So we still have struggle with sin, just we now have the power to not be weak, which is from the Holy Spirit.

No, No, No, you have it all wrong.

We have been set free from sin.
Jesus destroyed sin in the flesh.

Rom. 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Rom. 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Rom. 8:2,3
2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

 

[timewerx]

When in doubt or confusion, always consult the Gospel verses and teachings of St. John.

Apostle Paul is dealing with a major problem of Jews vs Gentile conversion in Romans. And Paul would adapt his teachings to the culture / situation of his audiences (1 Corinthians 9:19-23). So it's very likely that many teachings of Paul is not applicable to us!

Ironically, the Book of Romans (and other epistles of Paul) is the centerpoint of Christian divisions / breakups / splits / denominations.

This is not a surprise since many Christians took Paul's teachings for doctrine. It has also become a similar case when the other Apostles began teaching to the Gentiles with strong influence of Paul.

Those scriptures are meant to be historical references only concerning the founding of Chistian religion, they are not our core theology.

A lot of Christians are completely dead in spirit because of this. Replacing spirituality with worldliness. Only expecting miracles in money and personal healing, nothing else. It's all selfish, faithless, and denying the power of God.

With many leaving having exactly the wrong expectations because they grabbed into the wrong theology.

 

[bcbsr]

One problem I see with many who relate themselves to the struggle with sin of Romans 7 is there is a chapter break before they see that Romans 8:2 is freedom from the struggle with sin. They even believe chapter 7 is Paul's constant struggle with sin as an apostle! But there is no struggle when a person has been born again of the Spirit as Paul was. But there was a struggle under the law when he was still in the unborn-again flesh, without the Spirit of Christ in him. Those on the forum who relate so much to the struggle may be in the process of being saved, but haven't completely surrendered unto true repentance in order to receive the infilling Holy Spirit and be saved.

I've taken the liberty to just show a condensed rearranged version of Romans 7 and 8 without the chapter break and the confusing misinterpreted description of the life of struggle under the law. I have not changed wording, just dropped verses and rearranged verses to show the true power of the Spirit. I hope this edit of Scripture will help those who have twisted this portion of Scripture to mean a Christian will always struggle with sin, even with the Holy Spirit in them.

Romans 7 and 8 without the struggle of those under the law

12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Why rearrange? I can understand ignoring the chapter break. But if you look at the transition (unrearranted) it says,

24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
25 Thanks be to God— through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
1 ¶ Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Notice he uses the present tense "I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin." This as opposed to using the past tense, which would have supported your argument. And the "therefore" in Rom 8:1, alluding to what he just said in Romans 7 appears to make Romans 7 about the Christian's struggle with sin.

Being freed from the law of sin and death as a Christian applies to the body and the sinful nature therein. But the person himself has eternal security, thus freed from the law of sin and death, which is why Romans 8 starts off from the very first verse talking about freedom from condemnation.

 

[not under law]

In rom 7:7-11 Paul is recounting his life as a Pharisee once the law came to him. Thirteen I believe for a young Jewish lad who makes a personal commitment to God. The result of which still happens today to many who go to church. For they try to attain Heaven as Saul did and get the same result:

At the age of ten I responded to an altar call. I had been a normal healthy kid before I did so, but everything was about to change. The first big difference I noticed was, I became aware of my faults/sins in a way I never had previously (yes, even at that age!) I was determined to follow Christ and live a pure and holy life, for that is how in my heart I wanted to live. But as I now had the law within me, I could not hide from that law. If I lived as I had previously lived, I would be going against it. At times I got angry, and knew this was wrong, it was going against God’s moral law(didn’t reason it that way that young) so I had to stop being angry. I had unkind thoughts about some others, that was wrong also. I didn’t love many others as I should, that was wrong too. And I had a conscience about not always acting as I should act. In fact, I was starting to become much less happy than I had been before I made a commitment to Christ, for now I was burdened by my imperfections as I had not previously been.

Then I reached puberty, and along came impure thoughts. I so much did not want them, I knew they were sin (it was breaking the moral law inside of me) but no matter how hard I tried to resist them, they would not stop. In truth, I feared them, they could send me to hell, for Christians must live a life of obeying God, you cannot expect to attain heaven if you live a life of sin. The more I feared those thoughts, the more I feared they could send me to hell, the worse they got. I was not a happy young man anymore. I was guilt ridden by my inability to obey God, and live a pure and holy life for him. I started to feel condemned, and all the time the sin got worse. On the outside, I could still appear to be living a very good and holy life, but the inside was completely different. I was despondant, and felt it was all hopeless, I would end up in hell because I could not live as others did I saw in church on Sundays. For I imagined they were afflicted with none of the faults I had, they constantly told me how I should live my life, and we must obey God/his laws. So surely they were obeying them whilst I on the inside was not.

In the end, I walked away from the church. I refused to be a hypocrite, I could not live as Christians should live. I certainly could not be righteous before God by obeying his good and holy laws. I was a condemned sinner who would be cast into hell.

Looking back at that time, how can I describe it? I had felt alive once before the law came to me as it did, for there was no condemnation then, but when it did come, sin(consciousness) sprang to life and I died/felt condemned. The commandment that I believed was ordained to life/enable me to be a Christian and attain to heaven(if I obeyed it), instead brought death/condemnation (for I could not keep it). For sin took occasion of the commandment: Thou shalt not covet to arouse all manner of concupiscence in me and through it slew me. Was the law death for me? No, the law itself is holy, just and good, but sin took occasion of what was holy, just and good to make me exccedingly sinfull, and through it condemn me. (Rom7:7-13)

 

[dcalling]

No, No, No, you have it all wrong.

We have been set free from sin.
Jesus destroyed sin in the flesh.

Rom. 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Rom. 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Rom. 8:2,3
2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Thanks for quoting scripture.

I agree with you that we are set free from sin. But I do think the struggle will continue, as even when Jesus freed us from sin (or covered our sin so God won't count it against us), it does not prevent sin from harassing us (or our heart want to sin).

I am mainly addressing OP's claim that "Romans 8:2 is freedom from the struggle with sin", it actually says "Freedom from law of sin", which I believe is not freedom from struggle of sin, but it is free from LAW of sin (to prevent us from entering heaven, even if the fire destroyed all1 Corinthians 3:11-15).

 

[CharismaticLady]

Are we ignoring His thorn in the flesh that he begged to be taken from him. Lucky Paul, he suffered repeatedly, as he so chronicles.
1 Peter 4:1. Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin.
Many question the notion of the Lord's servants enduring suffering. I suppose if the enemy doesn't see someone as a threat to his kingdom, there is no need to make their life difficult. Speaking of Romans 8:
Romans 8:17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Tim 3:12. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Am I confused, or are you? I don't see your point. Sorry. What does suffering that makes us even more righteous have to do with struggling to not sin?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Why rearrange? I can understand ignoring the chapter break. But if you look at the transition (unrearranted) it says,

24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
25 Thanks be to God— through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
1 ¶ Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Notice he uses the present tense "I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin." This as opposed to using the past tense, which would have supported your argument. And the "therefore" in Rom 8:1, alluding to what he just said in Romans 7 appears to make Romans 7 about the Christian's struggle with sin.

Being freed from the law of sin and death as a Christian applies to the body and the sinful nature therein. But the person himself has eternal security, thus freed from the law of sin and death, which is why Romans 8 starts off from the very first verse talking about freedom from condemnation.

Romans 7 is about being under the Mosaic law. That is the Old Covenant. Note verse 7: “You shall not covet.” The Old Covenant law is the law of sin and death. 2 Corinthians 3:7 calls it the ministry of death. Present tense is a teaching tool to help those Jews still under the law (as in verse 1 refers to) to place themselves in that place. Note also verse 9. The present tense places Paul before and after Moses received the law, making Paul over 1300 years old. Present tense is also what John used in 1 John 1 which people erroneously say that verse 6, 8 and 10 apply to Christians. No, they may be being saved, but still have not repented in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit to give them power over sin. That is the same with the Old Covenant. No powerful Spirit to keep the law easily by a new nature (born again). Therefore, the struggle of 14-23, trying to keep the written law with sin still in their nature pulling them to do the opposite.

Note also in Romans 8:2 that Paul is keeping to present tense, and is the cure for the struggle of 7:14-23. It is the giving of the Spirit. "For the law of the Spirit (New Covenant) has made ME (present tense) FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH" the Old Covenant.

I see you are also seeing Romans 8:9-11 that we will be in the flesh until we die. Paul foresaw that error or not distinguishing the two types of "flesh". The way I read it is like this. "9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. (That "flesh" is our carnal nature, NOT to be confused with our "flesh" in our physical body) 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." IOW, when our nature is born again, we partake of the divine nature 2 Peter 1:2-4. We are able to be overcomers of sin in this life; but our mortal body will still die as it also needs to be born again and take on immortality. Then our body catches up with our previously born again spirit.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Galatians 5:24. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
The sinful nature is in the flesh:
Romans 7:23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
One of the confusing verses that were omitted from the original post. This is the work of the Spirit.
2 Co 1:7. And our hope for you is steadfast, because we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation.
1 Peter 4:1. Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin.
If you have indeed ceased from sin, then you have indeed endured the chastisement of a child of God.
Hebrews 12:5&6. Or have you forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.
Is this confusing? My words are in blue, feel free to omit them.

 

[CharismaticLady]

One of the confusing verses that were omitted from the original post. This is the work of the Spirit.

What verse are you referring to that was omitted. That was the whole point of the post. It is the Spirit that frees us from the struggle keeping the law. How could you miss that???

 

[Stone-n-Steel]

One problem I see with many who relate themselves to the struggle with sin of Romans 7 is there is a chapter break before they see that Romans 8:2 is freedom from the struggle with sin. They even believe chapter 7 is Paul's constant struggle with sin as an apostle! But there is no struggle when a person has been born again of the Spirit as Paul was. But there was a struggle under the law when he was still in the unborn-again flesh, without the Spirit of Christ in him. Those on the forum who relate so much to the struggle may be in the process of being saved, but haven't completely surrendered unto true repentance in order to receive the infilling Holy Spirit and be saved.

I've taken the liberty to just show a condensed rearranged version of Romans 7 and 8 without the chapter break and the confusing misinterpreted description of the life of struggle under the law. I have not changed wording, just dropped verses and rearranged verses to show the true power of the Spirit. I hope this edit of Scripture will help those who have twisted this portion of Scripture to mean a Christian will always struggle with sin, even with the Holy Spirit in them.

Romans 7 and 8 without the struggle of those under the law

12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Without getting into a long discussion about the meat of this post. Didn't the verse divisions get put in scripture by Robert Stephens in 1551. If so most of history has one long document.

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

So, let me get this straight...OP had to 'edit'/rearrange scripture to prove their theological view? Yikes, that's a big red flag for me.

Lest we forget that sinning also includes heart matters, not just physical actions. Just ONE impure/sinful/angry thought, ONE moment we do not love God with all of our hearts, and ONE instance of our intentions and motivations being from anything other than absolute purity is enough to count as sin. Sin, after all, is not simply a list of 'do's and don't's--sin means 'to miss the mark'. God's standard of perfection is that mark...does that register? We have to be perfectly sinless, not even just like Jesus, but like God himself, to be 100% sin-free. Anyone in this thread who even claims to have achieved anything close to that is already guilty of the sin of being dishonest/deceitful.

Even if we wanted to, this flesh we're stuck in is enough to keep us from achieving that standard. To walk by the spirit does NOT mean we will 'be fully like' the spirit. The only time we can achieve sinless perfection is in heaven with the Father, and out of our sinful bodily flesh.

Imo, even the mere suggestion that there's a 'process' to being saved, as if salvation is a series of boxes needing to be ticked before you can be worthy of salvation, is borderline blasphemous.

Acts 16:31 "They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

This is what salvation is about. The bible places great emphasis MANY times about avoiding sin, how sin 'clings so closely' and to abstain from sin...all things that, logically, should not be possible nor even a threat if we were 'sinless and perfect' as Jesus after we convert. Furthermore, what use is it to confess our sins as Christians if we cannot sin? It's almost as if this school of thought contradicts the bible, hmm..

 

[SeventyOne]

So, let me get this straight...OP had to 'edit'/rearrange scripture to prove their theological view? Yikes, that's a big red flag for me.

Lest we forget that sinning also includes heart matters, not just physical actions. Just ONE impure/sinful/angry thought, ONE moment we do not love God with all of our hearts, and ONE instance of our intentions and motivations being from anything other than absolute purity is enough to count as sin. Sin, after all, is not simply a list of 'do's and don't's--sin means 'to miss the mark'. God's standard of perfection is that mark...does that register? We have to be perfectly sinless, not even just like Jesus, but like God himself, to be 100% sin-free. Anyone in this thread who even claims to have achieved anything close to that is already guilty of the sin of being dishonest/deceitful.

Even if we wanted to, this flesh we're stuck in is enough to keep us from achieving that standard. To walk by the spirit does NOT mean we will 'be fully like' the spirit. The only time we can achieve sinless perfection is in heaven with the Father, and out of our sinful bodily flesh.

Imo, even the mere suggestion that there's a 'process' to being saved, as if salvation is a series of boxes needing to be ticked before you can be worthy of salvation, is borderline blasphemous.

Acts 16:31 "They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

This is what salvation is about. The bible places great emphasis MANY times about avoiding sin, how sin 'clings so closely' and to abstain from sin...all things that, logically, should not be possible nor even a threat if we were 'sinless and perfect' as Jesus after we convert. Furthermore, what use is it to confess our sins as Christians if we cannot sin? It's almost as if this school of thought contradicts the bible, hmm..

The only part I would change is to remove the word 'borderline'.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Without getting into a long discussion about the meat of this post. Didn't the verse divisions get put in scripture by Robert Stephens in 1551. If so most of history has one long document.

I don't know. I thought it was in the 800's but that is just off the top of my head

 

[JIMINZ]

............

 

[JIMINZ]

Without getting into a long discussion about the meat of this post. Didn't the verse divisions get put in scripture by Robert Stephens in 1551. If so most of history has one long document.

Not necessarily, what was the date for the Cannon to have been approved and then compiled into what we call the Bible?

 

[JIMINZ]

..................