Romans 7 and 8 without confusing verses

[CharismaticLady]

One problem I see with many who relate themselves to the struggle with sin of Romans 7 is there is a chapter break before they see that Romans 8:2 is freedom from the struggle with sin. They even believe chapter 7 is Paul's constant struggle with sin as an apostle! But there is no struggle when a person has been born again of the Spirit as Paul was. But there was a struggle under the law when he was still in the unborn-again flesh, without the Spirit of Christ in him. Those on the forum who relate so much to the struggle may be in the process of being saved, but haven't completely surrendered unto true repentance in order to receive the infilling Holy Spirit and be saved.

I've taken the liberty to just show a condensed rearranged version of Romans 7 and 8 without the chapter break and the confusing misinterpreted description of the life of struggle under the law. I have not changed wording, just dropped verses and rearranged verses to show the true power of the Spirit. I hope this edit of Scripture will help those who have twisted this portion of Scripture to mean a Christian will always struggle with sin, even with the Holy Spirit in them.

Romans 7 and 8 without the struggle of those under the law

12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[Mr. M]

But there is no struggle when a person has been born again of the Spirit as Paul was.

Are we ignoring His thorn in the flesh that he begged to be taken from him. Lucky Paul, he suffered repeatedly, as he so chronicles.
1 Peter 4:1. Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin.
Many question the notion of the Lord's servants enduring suffering. I suppose if the enemy doesn't see someone as a threat to his kingdom, there is no need to make their life difficult. Speaking of Romans 8:
Romans 8:17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Tim 3:12. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Are we ignoring His thorn in the flesh that he begged to be taken from him. Lucky Paul, he suffered repeatedly, as he so chronicles.
1 Peter 4:1. Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin.
Many question the notion of the Lord's servants enduring suffering. I suppose if the enemy doesn't see someone as a threat to his kingdom, there is no need to make their life difficult. Speaking of Romans 8:
Romans 8:17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Tim 3:12. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Struggling with sin, and suffering because of other's sin are two different things and do not apply.

 

[Mr. M]

Struggling with sin, and suffering because of other's sin are two different things and do not apply.

I hear what you are saying there is a difference for sure. But Paul's thorn was given because of the many revelations he received.
2Co 12:7. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
Pride is still sin.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I hear what you are saying there is a difference for sure. But Paul's thorn was given because of the many revelations he received.
2Co 12:7. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
Pride is still sin.

His suffering was because of other's sins. It causes patience. It prevented sin.

 

[Mr. M]

2Co 12:7. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
Pride is still sin.

Are you really just going to ignore this to hold to your assertion? I never found Romans 7 and 8 to be confusing, so you aren't doing anyone a service by "omitting confusing Verses."
Only through a correct understanding of Romans 7 can we properly receive from the Spirit in Romans 8. Paul describes our struggle with the carnal nature, and the ineffectiveness of the Law to overcome the "law of sin and death."

Romans 7:15-20. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what my will is to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate is that I do. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells (oikeo) in me.

And so we see Paul repeat this word dwell three times to emphasize the nature of sin as a "resident" in my house, (oikeo) who is a homewrecker. The will of sin is contrary to our own and leads us to self-destructive behavior that man was unable to overcome without a Savior. This he purposely presents to serve as a contrast to the point he intends to make in chapter 8. He closes the chapter and builds a bridge to the next with this proclamation:

Romans 7:22-25. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man, but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Only now, with a thorough understanding of chapter 7 can a disciple grasp the victory described in chapter 8. Many times I have heard preaching directly from Romans 8 that if you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, the Holy Spirit dwells in you by faith. This is not the point that Paul was trying to make at all. This is not "the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it" theology.
Only If the Spirit Dwells in You
Romans 8:9. But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
We now see Paul using the same word that he used three times in Romans 7, to say that if the Spirit of God directs your will the way the sin nature did before, then you will walk in victory. This is the meaning of to dwell.

Romans 8:11. But if the Spirit of him that raised Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwells in you.

When he says "by his Spirit that dwells in you"(enoikeo), he implies that the Spirit is residing with you in harmony and cooperation. This is what the Lord and the apostle John referred to as "abiding in" The Spirit.

Romans 8:13,14. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.

Galatians 5:16-18. I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
The flesh never stops warring against the Spirit, that is why all the promises given by the Lord in Revelations 2 and 3 are prefaced as "For the one who overcomes, I will give...

 

[HARK!]

Those on the forum who relate so much to the struggle may be in the process of being saved, but haven't completely surrendered unto true repentance in order to receive the infilling Holy Spirit and be saved.

Would you like me to send you a recipe for matzah?

 

[Der Alte]

One problem I see with many who relate themselves to the struggle with sin of Romans 7 is there is a chapter break before they see that Romans 8:2 is freedom from the struggle with sin. They even believe chapter 7 is Paul's constant struggle with sin as an apostle! But there is no struggle when a person has been born again of the Spirit as Paul was. But there was a struggle under the law when he was still in the unborn-again flesh, without the Spirit of Christ in him. Those on the forum who relate so much to the struggle may be in the process of being saved, but haven't completely surrendered unto true repentance in order to receive the infilling Holy Spirit and be saved.
I've taken the liberty to just show a condensed rearranged version of Romans 7 and 8 without the chapter break and the confusing misinterpreted description of the life of struggle under the law. I have not changed wording, just dropped verses and rearranged verses to show the true power of the Spirit. I hope this edit of Scripture will help those who have twisted this portion of Scripture to mean a Christian will always struggle with sin, even with the Holy Spirit in them.
Romans 7 and 8 without the struggle of those under the law
12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

This is an interesting way to rearrange the verses apparently to make them support one's assumptions/presuppositions.
But who was this letter written to? Not to western Christians, who have been Christians for a number of years, probably exposed to various denominations, but formerly pagan Christians who were hearing this for the very first time. Unlike us who, speaking for myself, have several Bibles on my phone, tablets, and lap top. I can instantly call up any verse(s) on any topic. Most probably didn't even have a personal copy of the scripture. So when they heard the epistle to Rome they would have understood it in its most obvious meaning. The present tense would have been understood as the present tense and the same with the past and future tenses. This holds true for the entire NT.
.....The church at Rome very likely did not have the letters to Corinth, Ephesus etc and vice versa. So we cannot with any degree of confidence try to prove anything about Romans from other church letters. And it is highly unlikely that anyone in the church at Rome, when they heard the letter read, would have mentally rearranged the verses they way you did to arrive at the conclusion you did.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Would you like me to send you a recipe for matzah?

Sure, I use it for communion.

 

[CharismaticLady]

This is an interesting way to rearrange the verses apparently to make them support one's assumptions/presuppositions.
But who was this letter written to? Not to western Christians, who have been Christians for a number of years, probably exposed to various denominations, but formerly pagan Christians who were hearing this for the very first time. Unlike us who, speaking for myself, have several Bibles on my phone, tablets, and lap top. I can instantly call up any verse(s) on any topic. Most probably didn't even have a personal copy of the scripture. So when they heard the epistle to Rome they would have understood it in its most obvious meaning. The present tense would have been understood as the present tense and the same with the past and future tenses. This holds true for the entire NT.
.....The church at Rome very likely did not have the letters to Corinth, Ephesus etc and vice versa. So we cannot with any degree of confidence try to prove anything about Romans from other church letters. And it is highly unlikely that anyone in the church at Rome, when they heard the letter read, would have mentally rearranged the verses they way you did to arrive at the conclusion you did.

When I read Romans 7 and 8 together, I see that the context shows Romans 8:2 resolving the conflict of Romans 7:14-23. Context is everything, and today's Christians have a terrible habit of not reading to the conclusion.

As far a present tense, Romans 8:2 is also Paul in present tense when he said, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed me from the law of sin and death. You do know don't you that the struggle in Romans 7:14-23 was dealing with the law of sin and death, that Paul said in Romans 8:2 he is now free of.

But it is really funny to me when someone brings up the teaching value of present tense. Look at Romans 7:9? It is present tense, so was Paul over 1300 years old and was alive before and after Moses received the law?

 

[JIMINZ]

I hear what you are saying there is a difference for sure. But Paul's thorn was given because of the many revelations he received.
2Co 12:7. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
Pride is still sin.

Couldn't Paul's thorn in the flesh have been his memory of how he Persecuted and Wasted the Church, which were now his brothers because, it says he was buffeted which does not sound like it being a physical ailment but a mental or Spiritual distress about his past.

 

[HARK!]

Sure, I use it for communion.

You should try this recipe for Pesach. It's easy!

 

[CharismaticLady]

You should try this recipe for Pesach. It's easy!

That looked easy enough. I'll have to get the ingredient I don't have and try it.

 

[Der Alte]

When I read Romans 7 and 8 together, I see that the context shows Romans 8:2 resolving the conflict of Romans 7:14-23. Context is everything, and today's Christians have a terrible habit of not reading to the conclusion.
As far a present tense, Romans 8:2 is also Paul in present tense when he said, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed me from the law of sin and death. You do know don't you that the struggle in Romans 7:14-23 was dealing with the law of sin and death, that Paul said in Romans 8:2 he is now free of.
But it is really funny to me when someone brings up the teaching value of present tense. Look at Romans 7:9? It is present tense, so was Paul over 1300 years old and was alive before and after Moses received the law?

And you think this silliness disproves my post? If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense. Since Paul clearly was not alive at the time of Moses he was speaking figuratively about the law that does NOT prove or disprove anything else. Paul may have meant when the law came to me etc. How did the former pagan Romans who heard Paul's letter for the first time understand it.

 

[not under law]

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Before Paul came of age to make a personal commitment to God(13 I think for a young Jewish lad) he may well have felt alive, for there was no condemnation then. But once he made that commitment, and lived under the law:
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

 

[CharismaticLady]

And you think this silliness disproves my post? If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense. Since Paul clearly was not alive at the time of Moses he was speaking figuratively about the law that does NOT prove or disprove anything else. Paul may have meant when the law came to me etc. How did the former pagan Romans who heard Paul's letter for the first time understand it.

Exactly, Paul saying the present tense, "I" was referring to "mankind," and for us to put ourselves in the story. We all need Jesus to be free from SIN, the reason for the law in the first place.

 

[Der Alte]

Exactly, Paul saying "I" was referring to "mankind," and for us to put ourselves in the story. We all need Jesus to be free from SIN, the reason for the law in the first place.

Yes everyone reads/listens to the gospel for the first time and applies it to themselves but that changes nothing I said. The struggles that Paul had with sin vs. law in Rom 7 was that after he was under the law or before? Why would Paul be struggling with sin before he accepted the law?

Romans 7:17-22
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:​

A sinner a slave to sin could not care less about the law whether his actions were evil, etc.vs. 19. A sinner would not know that no good thing dwells in them. vs. 18. A sinner would not be aware of any struggle between good and evil vs. 18.

 

[JIMINZ]

And you think this silliness disproves my post? If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense. Since Paul clearly was not alive at the time of Moses he was speaking figuratively about the law that does NOT prove or disprove anything else. Paul may have meant when the law came to me etc. How did the former pagan Romans who heard Paul's letter for the first time understand it.

Paul was not talking about himself before or after conversion.
Paul was demonstrating how the LAW kills, but Christ gives Life to the Believer.

 

[Der Alte]

Paul was not talking about himself before or after conversion.
Paul was demonstrating how the LAW kills, but Christ gives Life to the Believer.

Nonsense. If Paul was not talking about himself, then he was lying. That is what you believe after listening to teaching/preaching for a number of years. The Christians at Rome were hearing it for the first time. They had no reason to understand what Paul was saying did not mean exactly what he was said. People can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to making verses figurative to fit their assumptions/presuppositions as you are doing.

 

[JIMINZ]

Nonsense. If Paul was not talking about himself, then he was lying. That is what you believe after listening to teaching/preaching for a number of years. The Christians at Rome were hearing it for the first time. They had no reason to understand what Paul was saying did not mean exactly what he was said. People can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to making verses figurative to fit their assumptions/presuppositions as you are doing.

Yes I know, you do it all the time.