Roman Catholic..anything wrong with it?

[beebert]

Haha let us pick Eastern Lightning then! That must be the church Christ founded

 

[Albion]

I think I am right now leaning towards considering the Orthodox Church to be true... I believe it to be a serious problem that most protestant denominations have de-sacramentalized the world...

De-sacramentalized the world??

Anyway, you cannot choose to join ALL the Protestant churches at once, so what I'm reading seems rather odd.

Regarding universalism, no. Though I hope for it of course, who wouldn't? But what I mean is that the world is redeemed in a sense. Just as the world fell in Adam, it is redeemed in Christ, and that redemption of the world can be experienced through salvation. It isn't
just the redemption of YOUR soul, it is the redemption of the whole cosmos.

OK. Almost everyone agrees on that.

 

[beebert]

We understand the difference, but you need to understand that "Tradition" is only a theological theory, and one that has been widely abused in order to justify the invention of new doctrines that have no basis in Scripture.

Hm... You can't literally find the word trinity either. Nor can you find the truth that Jesus is has two wills, a human will and a divine, etc. But those things have been accepted. You know, what I mean is that what was taught in Paul's time was much more then can be found in his letters. Just read the apostlic fathers, that is, the disciples of the apostles. There you will find the belief that the eucharist is Christ's literal body and blood for example. I do not believe it was invented by the disciples of the apostles, no, it was passed on to them from the apostles themselves. Remember, the apostles thought Christ would come back while they were alive. They didn't think about writing a New Testament. That came later. The church existed before the New Testament. Paul just thought about writing letters to the church, not about writing something that would be part of the New Testament.

 

[beebert]

De-sacramentalized the world??

Anyway, you cannot choose to join ALL the Protestant churches at once, so what I'm reading seems rather odd.


OK. Almost everyone agrees on that.

Yes, the whole world is a sacrament! I wrote a post earlier in this thread about what I mean about it

 

[Albion]

Hm... You can't literally find the word trinity either.

Oh please don't resort to that old line. We were talking about real issues, I thought.

that Jesus is has two wills, a human will and a divine, etc. But those things have been accepted.

And all most of the major Protestant churches have accepted them as well since they are the common inheritance of us all, whether Protestant or Catholic.

You know, what I mean is that what was taught in Paul's time was much more then can be found in his letters. Just read the apostlic fathers, that is, the disciples of the apostles. There you will find the belief that thee eucharist is Christ's literal body and blood for example.

It's a false doctrine that was unknown until the Dark Ages, if that is what you're referring to. But if you're referring instead to the Real Presence, which most Protestants believe in, that was Apostolic but you can find it in the Bible. The idea that this is something believed only because of "Holy Tradition" is in error.

Remember, the apostles thought Christ would come back while they were alive. They didn't think about writing a New Testament. That came later. The church existed before the New Testament

Here you appear to me to be refuting the idea of "Tradition" being valid, not supporting it. The earliest Christians did indeed think that the second coming would be immanent. They did not believe in a Purgatory, therefore, since that would be superfluous. SO how can Purgatory be justified on the basis of Tradition?

 

[beebert]

Oh please don't resort to that old line. We were talking about real issues, I thought.


And all most of the major Protestant churches have accepted them as well since they are the common inheritance of us all, whether Protestant or Catholic.

It's a false doctrine that was unknown until the Dark Ages, if that is what you're referring to. But if you're referring instead to the Real Presence, which most Protestants believe in, that was Apostolic but you can find it in the Bible. The idea that this is something believed only because of "Holy Tradition" is in error.

I don't know what denomination you belong to, but evengelicals for example deny real presence and call it only a symbol. That is wrong. I don't really understand what you meant by the rest of the things you said.

 

[Albion]

Are you or we planning on following this up with a list of the 500 or more Catholic/Eastern church bodies?

• 
  Baptist churches - 75-105 million[12][18]
  • Southern Baptist Convention - 15.7 million[19]
  • National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc. - 8.2 million[20]
  • Nigerian Baptist Convention - 5.0 million[20]
  • National Missionary Baptist Convention of America - 3.1 million[20]
  • National Baptist Convention of America, Inc. - 3.1 million[20]
  • Baptist Union of Uganda - 2.5 million[20]

• • 
    

 

[Albion]

I don't know what denomination you belong to, but evengelicals for example deny real presence and call it only a symbol. That is wrong. I don't really understand what you meant by the rest of the things you said.

I said that most of the major Protestant bodies believe in the Real Presence. That would include the Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Reformed, Methodists, and some others. They constitute the majority of all Protestants. I did not say that every Protestant or reformed church believes in it.

 

[Phil 1:21]

I don't know what denomination you belong to, but evengelicals for example deny real presence and call it only a symbol.

I'm guessing you've spent exactly zero time in an evangelical church.

 

[beebert]

I'm guessing you've spent exactly zero time in an evangelical church.

Have you heard what people like Piper and MacArthur say on the Eucharist(lord's supper)? It is, simply wrong, and had they been holding that view in the early church, they would have either been forced to recant that view or be excommunicated. Simple as that.

 

[beebert]

Oh please don't resort to that old line. We were talking about real issues, I thought.


And all most of the major Protestant churches have accepted them as well since they are the common inheritance of us all, whether Protestant or Catholic.

It's a false doctrine that was unknown until the Dark Ages, if that is what you're referring to. But if you're referring instead to the Real Presence, which most Protestants believe in, that was Apostolic but you can find it in the Bible. The idea that this is something believed only because of "Holy Tradition" is in error.


Here you appear to me to be refuting the idea of "Tradition" being valid, not supporting it. The earliest Christians did indeed think that the second coming would be immanent. They did not believe in a Purgatory, therefore, since that would be superfluous. SO how can Purgatory be justified on the basis of Tradition?

What is a false doctrine? No, the early church taught that the bread and wine was the body and blood of Christ.

 

[Goatee]

I don't know what denomination you belong to, but evengelicals for example deny real presence and call it only a symbol. That is wrong. I don't really understand what you meant by the rest of the things you said.

Al dislikes all things Catholic my friend

 

[Erose]

Also the Roman catholic church bishops blessed the German and Italian tanks....talk about playing both sides of the war....guess they were paying Italy back for giving them their new digs at the Vatican in 1929 in the Lateran treaty....

Do you even have a scrap of evidence for this?

 

[Erose]

And it continues to have blood and filth on it's conscience...it seems it doesn't learn....
It isunfortunate that "christians" have to categorize people into their little pigeon holes....
A word of advice for you, it is possible to be a true Christian and follow Jesus teachings in the Bible, and the wordof God without belonging to any fancy denomination..you do know that right?

Actually no that isn't true. Jesus established a "Church" a family. There is a reason for the community of Christians, because He knew that we as individuals would have a much harder time living a life a faith in isolation than if we had the support of our Christian family. One cannot baptize himself, it requires another to do so. That Bible that you read, you wouldn't have a copy of it in hand to follow if some other Christian didn't make a copy of it to be handed down until a printing press was invented. Heck you would have a copy of it today in your hands, if there wasn't other Christians buying Bibles, to make it financially feasible for a printing company to keep making copies. See the point here? Christianity was never ever meant to be lived in isolation, especially not in this world.

 

[beebert]

If someone says "The catholic church is false because of the filth it has on its conscience" then one condemns humans for not being like Christ. Of course the people within the church as well as outside of it will sin. Of course there will be "false christians" inside the church too. Read Augustine on Ecclesiology(even though he is not the greatest church father on this, he makes a point here about it). Christians aren't better than non-believers. Both are sinners. The difference is that christians acknowledge it.

 

[Albion]

What is a false doctrine? No, the early church taught that the bread and wine was the body and blood of Christ.

...which is what the Bible teaches.

What have you shown me that rebuts Sola Scriptura, the Reformation, or any of that? What have you shown that supports the use of a second and equal source of divine guidance (Tradition)?

 

[Erose]

Are you or we planning on following this up with a list of the 500 or more Catholic/Eastern church bodies?

Can you provide that list. Just curious if you can.

 

[Albion]

Can you provide that list. Just curious if you can.

I can name a dozen right now, but your question is a fair one.

It comes from the same source as gave us that 30,000 Protestant denominations claim, but the compiler's name escapes me at the moment. Maybe someone else can remind us, since it has been given by other posters a number of times by now.

 

[beebert]

...which is what the Bible teaches.

What have you shown me that rebuts Sola Scriptura, the Reformation, or any of that? What have you shown that supports the use of a second and equal source of divine guidance (Tradition)?

Well you see what the teaching of Sola Scriptura have led to: 30 000 different denominations that claim to be correct. Differing opinions on matters such as soteriology, the eucharist, baptism etc. These are serious issues. It might be that your denomination for example hold to many of the true doctrines, but a vast majority don't. Baptists, evangelicals, pentecostals etc. in the United States are seriously wrong on important matters. You take scripture out from its source. There is MORE to the faith that was held by the early christians than what is taught in Scripture.

 

[Erose]

I can name a dozen right now, but your question is a fair one.

It comes from the same source as gave us that 30,000 Protestant denominations claim, but the compiler's name escapes me at the moment. Maybe someone else can remind us, since it has been given by other posters a number of times by now.

I would be interested in this list, as this number has come up in several of your posts over the years, and I have not as of yet seen the list, nor can I find it on the internet.