Roman Catholic..anything wrong with it?

[Catherineanne]

I have no idea how they can twist the scripture in regards to graven images so they can sculpt, y'know, graven likenesses of Mary and the saints.

Research is your friend.

 

[Albion]

The Bible does not define itself; it was left to the church (and by that I mean the Roman church) to define the canon of Scripture. There are warnings in the Bible about taking away from what is known to be Scripture, but Luther et al went ahead anyway; rather reckless of them, tbh.

In addition, the Bible does not claim to be complete and sufficient. Therefore we may choose to think it is, but we cannot claim that such a belief is Scriptural; it isn't.

What Luther allegedly took away had been included in Bible editions only provisionally, and the RCC then made its own modifications in reaction to Luther.

And the argument that the Bible doesn't say there are no other sources that are the equal of Holy Scripture (after describing the Scriptures as being of the utmost reliability, as it does) is no argument in favor of anybody just picking one and going with it!

 

[Goatee]

Some people will always want to pull the CC down. However much you show them things to the contrary of what they believe. Its like a never ending circle of CC hate i guess.

 

[PeaceB]

What Luther allegedly took away had been included in Bible editions only provisionally, and the RCC then made its own modifications in reaction to Luther.

And the argument that the Bible doesn't say there are no other sources that are the equal of Holy Scripture (after describing the Scriptures as being of the utmost reliability, as it does) is no argument in favor of anybody just picking one and going with it!

But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

. . .​

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

. . .​

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

. . .​

He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

. . .​

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

[FinishedCross]

 

[Goatee]

But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

. . .​

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

. . .​

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

. . .​

He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

. . .​

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

See, thats the problem, people didn't hold fast to the traditions taught so decided to jump ship! The seas became too rough so they decided to construct 1,000s of little 'faiths' / 'denominations' all shooting off in different directions, each claiming to know the 'truth'.

 

[kepha31]

It's one thing to have a sculpture of something. It's another thing to bow in front of it, kiss its feet, anoint it with oil, etc.

Wrong. We bow to whom the image represents. STUPID people think we bow to images in worship, and STUPID people think that veneration stops at a chunk of plaster or wood. And STUPID people can't find "veneration" in the dictionary .
"anoint with oil?" Never heard of such nonsense.
A devotional aid is a means to an end. not an end in itself.

 

[Albion]

You know, this idea that Protestantism threw out the Bible or made wholesale changes in it works as a Catholic/Orthodox talking point (but then why does my local EO church use the KJV in all of its services?). However, pushing such a notion is to propagate a myth.

What was omitted was the Apocrypha, a few books that had always been in question, were not in the Hebrew Bible we inherited, and which do not have the same character at all as the other OT books.

 

[Goatee]

Wrong. We bow to whom the image represents. STUPID people think we bow to images in worship, and STUPID people think that veneration stops at a chunk of plaster or wood. And STUPID people can't find "veneration" in the dictionary .
"anoint with oil?" Never heard of such nonsense.
A devotional aid is a means to an end. not an end in itself.

Also, did not God instruct Moses to construct the 'Ark?' What was sitting on it? Did people bow to it? Were the people worshiping the 'Ark' or God?

Remember, non-Catholics...........GOD KNOWS WHAT IS IN THE MIND OF THE PERSON PRAYING!

DO NOT JUDGE. Even if you 'think' you know what you are judging!

 

[Goatee]

You know, this idea that Protestantism threw out the Bible or made wholesale changes in it works as a Catholic/Orthodox talking point (but then why does my local EO church use the KJV in all of its services?). However, that is to propagate a myth.

What was omitted was the Apocrypha, a few books that had always been in question, were not in the Hebrew Bible we inherited, and which do not have the same character at all as the other OT books.

Lol, 'a few books!'........really?

Who put the Bible together? What did Luther add to 'his' Bible?

 

[PeaceB]

You know, this idea that Protestantism threw out the Bible or made wholesale changes in it works as a Catholic/Orthodox talking point (but then why does my local EO church use the KJV in all of its services?). However, pushing such a notion is to propagate a myth.

What was omitted was the Apocrypha, a few books that had always been in question, were not in the Hebrew Bible we inherited, and which do not have the same character at all as the other OT books.

1) The Hebrew canon was not closed during the time that Christ and the apostles walked the Earth, so there was nothing for you to inherit.

2) Jewish people do not determine what is and what is not the inspired word of God. If they did, they would have at least 27 more books.

3) “Let us lie in wait for the righteous man,

because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions;
he reproaches us for sins against the law,
and accuses us of sins against our training.
13 He professes to have knowledge of God,
and calls himself a child of the Lord.
14 He became to us a reproof of our thoughts;
15 the very sight of him is a burden to us,
because his manner of life is unlike that of others,
and his ways are strange.
16 We are considered by him as something base,
and he avoids our ways as unclean;
he calls the last end of the righteous happy,
and boasts that God is his father.
17 Let us see if his words are true,
and let us test what will happen at the end of his life;
18 for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him,
and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.
19 Let us test him with insult and torture,
that we may find out how gentle he is,
and make trial of his forbearance.
20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death,
for, according to what he says, he will be protected.”
Error of the Wicked
21 Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray,
for their wickedness blinded them,
22 and they did not know the secret purposes of God,
nor hope for the wages of holiness,
nor discern the prize for blameless souls;
23 for God created man for incorruption,
and made him in the image of his own eternity,
24 but through the devil’s envy death entered the world,
and those who belong to his party experience it.​

I suppose you think the above is a prophecy about what happened to your cousin Vinny?

 

[FinishedCross]

Some people will always want to pull the CC down. However much you show them things to the contrary of what they believe. Its like a never ending circle of CC hate i guess.

That's proof we are legitimate. The strength of the hate is at an unusual high. I don't ever remember it being this bad.

Anyone who hates on the Church is in COMPLIANCE with the Synagogue of Satan and serve another Master. I don't know HOW they can't see it:

THE PROTOCOLS OF THE LEARNED ELDERS OF ZION
PROTOCOL No. 17
“WE SHALL DESTROY THE [CATHOLIC] CLERGY [via discreditation]”

2. WE HAVE LONG PAST TAKEN CARE TO *DISCREDIT THE PRIESTHOOD* OF THE "GOYIM" and thereby to *ruin their mission on earth* which in these days might still be a *great hindrance* to us. (ARE *YOU* ANTI-PRIEST?)

3. When the time comes finally to *DESTROY THE PAPAL COURT* the finger of an *invisible hand* will point the nations ['goyim'] towards this court [in accusation]. (Is an UNKNOWN FORCE causing *YOU* to ACCUSE the PAPAL COURT?)

4. THE *KING OF THE JEWS* WILL BE THE *REAL POPE* OF THE UNIVERSE

--The ‘King of the Jews’ was a title used to accuse, MOCK and ‘kill’ Jesus.

-Mat 27:37 "And they put up over His head the *accusation* written **AGAINST HIM** : "THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS".

-Mk 15:2 Pilate asked Jesus, “Are you the king of the Jews?” Jesus Replied: “Those are **YOUR** words” [NOT His].

7. Our kingdom will be an apologia of the **divinity Vishnu** , in whom is found its personification.. (IS THIS JESUS' KINGDOM? ARE *YOU* FIGHTING FOR THIS?)

THE BRETHREN WHOM THEY FIGHT THE CHURCH ALONG SIDE WITH:

“TO *FIGHT AGAINST PAPACY* IS A SOCIAL NECESSITY AND CONSTITUTES THE CONSTANT *DUTY OF FREEMASONRY* .” - (Masonic International Congress, Brussels 1904, pg 132 of the report).

"The FIGHT taking place between *CATHOLICISM and FREEMASONRY* is a fight to the *very DEATH* , ceaseless and merciless." (Grand Orient of France P. 183. 1892, and in Supreme Council No. 85, page 48.)

Which Master are YOU working for? You can't say Jesus and then fight against the Church. The proof is above. You can only serve ONE.

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve *two masters*

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

This forum is getting out of hand.

 

[FinishedCross]

1)
2) Jewish people do not determine what is and what is not the inspired word of God. If they did, they would have at least 27 more books.

BINGO!

Mat 23:8 As for you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’ You have but ONE teacher, and you are all brothers. (this PROHIBITS Christian's to utilize a 'Rabbi' as teacher/master or you are NO LONGER brethren )

I don't think people realize how serious it is that they used the Jewish Canon. What this does is place them under authority of the Rabbi's, hence the founding of America/Freemasonry, and hence false Masonic Judeo-Chrisitanity that has been the most violent, destructive force on earth.

Now to be fair, from what I heard, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, But I heard that removing the books wasn't 'part' of the actual reformation and that was simply done much later on by the printers to save money on the book costs. I also know that they used red books at the Churches and didn't allow for 'private interpretation' whatsoever. It seems that once books got cheap enough, they read them and sure enough Judaized, and then got exile and CAST AWAY to America. I heard early Protestants were CRAZY strict on heretics. American literally wrote a constitution to protect cults, and persecute the Catholic Church (by way of Free Speech etc which has only ever been used to attack the Catholic Church lets be honest).

Today though, American 'Christianity' (i din't even know what to call it) has 'stolen' the title of Protestant. They are not under a protest, they are under their own delusions of 'born again' gnosis and other inventions of the past 50 years. But the fact they hold so strong onto Catholic hate just shows who the True Church is.

I believe a LOT of this came from the Seventh Day Adventists. I call it the 'germ'. It like.. they get baptized literally and take on the soul of Ellen G White. They have an inner hatred and paranoia of the Church. All they do is talk about how the Catholics are out to get them. This one person said on an article:

"why can't we preach the gospel without identifying Roman Catholicism as Satan's exclusive tool?"

This statement below encompasses ALL American 'Psuedo' Crhistians and why they hate us:

"Adventists have regarded the Roman Catholic Church leadership, typified in the first beast of Revelation 13, as our arch-nemesis, our bête noire, the enemy that takes the evil part in the apocalyptic scenario against God's remnant."

Yes. These groups, such as Mormons, Jehovah Witness, SDA, Pentecostal etc *ALL* believe they are a remnant of people waiting. Most of this comes from a science fiction book but that is neither here nor there. Somehow they feel we're going to get them.

And there's truth in everything:

1 Cor 6:2-3 Don’t you realize that someday we saints [holy ones] will judge the world? Do you not know that we shall judge angels?

1 Thes 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ *WITH* with all His *SAINTS*

Aren't they afraid and paranoid with all the stuff they do hating the Church? They call the saints DEAD PEOPLE etc. They maybe are obsessed with fighting the Church because they'll be grinding and mashing their teeth (anger) in Hell doing the same thing there. It's like it's so, so obvious to me their making their bed and getting ready to lay in it.

Needless to say, salvation is an individual thing ultimately. But if I was a betting man..lol..

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

BINGO!

Mat 23:8 As for you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’ You have but ONE teacher, and you are all brothers. (this PROHIBITS Christian's to utilize a 'Rabbi' as teacher/master or you are NO LONGER brethren )

I don't think people realize how serious it is that they used the Jewish Canon. What this does is place them under authority of the Rabbi's, hence the founding of America/Freemasonry, and hence false Masonic Judeo-Chrisitanity that has been the most violent, destructive force on earth.

Now to be fair, from what I heard, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, But I heard that removing the books wasn't 'part' of the actual reformation and that was simply done much later on by the printers to save money on the book costs. I also know that they used red books at the Churches and didn't allow for 'private interpretation' whatsoever. It seems that once books got cheap enough, they read them and sure enough Judaized, and then got exile and CAST AWAY to America. I heard early Protestants were CRAZY strict on heretics. American literally wrote a constitution to protect cults, and persecute the Catholic Church (by way of Free Speech etc which has only ever been used to attack the Catholic Church lets be honest).

Today though, American 'Christianity' (i din't even know what to call it) has 'stolen' the title of Protestant. They are not under a protest, they are under their own delusions of 'born again' gnosis and other inventions of the past 50 years. But the fact they hold so strong onto Catholic hate just shows who the True Church is.

I believe a LOT of this came from the Seventh Day Adventists. I call it the 'germ'. It like.. they get baptized literally and take on the soul of Ellen G White. They have an inner hatred and paranoia of the Church. All they do is talk about how the Catholics are out to get them. This one person said on an article:

"why can't we preach the gospel without identifying Roman Catholicism as Satan's exclusive tool?"

This statement below encompasses ALL American 'Psuedo' Crhistians and why they hate us:

"Adventists have regarded the Roman Catholic Church leadership, typified in the first beast of Revelation 13, as our arch-nemesis, our bête noire, the enemy that takes the evil part in the apocalyptic scenario against God's remnant."

Yes. These groups, such as Mormons, Jehovah Witness, SDA, Pentecostal etc *ALL* believe they are a remnant of people waiting. Most of this comes from a science fiction book but that is neither here nor there. Somehow they feel we're going to get them.

And there's truth in everything:

1 Cor 6:2-3 Don’t you realize that someday we saints [holy ones] will judge the world? Do you not know that we shall judge angels?

1 Thes 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ *WITH* with all His *SAINTS*

Aren't they afraid and paranoid with all the stuff they do hating the Church? They call the saints DEAD PEOPLE etc. They maybe are obsessed with fighting the Church because they'll be grinding and mashing their teeth (anger) in Hell doing the same thing there. It's like it's so, so obvious to me their making their bed and getting ready to lay in it.

Needless to say, salvation is an individual thing ultimately. But if I was a betting man..lol..

Matthew 7:3

 

[kepha31]

Sometimes we miss things in the Bible, though they are right in front of us. Some of our Protestant brethren (mainly Calvinists but some other denominations as well) have an almost obsessive fear of any image associated with worship at all, thinking that all such manifestations are examples of idolatry and undue exaltation of a “graven image”.

This has led some fanatical elements to oppose even crucifixes and statues of Christ as idols. In other words, all images whatsoever are collapsed in this wrongheaded mentality into the category of the “graven image” in the Ten Commandments. But the Bible doesn’t take this view at all. Here is one striking example:

Exodus 33:8-10

Note that the pillar of cloud is:

1) a creation (water, if a literal cloud);
2) visual, hence an image;
and
3) thought to directly represent God Himself.

It’s also a supernatural manifestation, which is a major difference compared to any true idol made by the hands of men; but that would make no difference for those who mistakenly hold that any image whatsoever associated with God is impermissible.

The same iconoclasts (opposers of images) have to explain away things like the burning bush (Ex 3:2-6), which is not only fire, but also called an “angel of the Lord” (Exodus 3:2), yet also “God” (3:4, 6, 11, 13-16, 18; 4:5, 7-8) and “the LORD” (3:7, 16, 18; 4:2, 4-6, 10-11, 14) interchangeably. An angel is a creation (as is fire and cloud); yet God chose to use a created being and inanimate objects to visibly represent Him. Several similar instances occur in the Old Testament. Moreover, the Jews “worshiped” fire as representative of God in the following passage:

2 Chronicles 7:1-4
Biblical Evidence for Worship of God Via an Image

​

 

[Goatee]

This forum is getting out of hand.

Really?

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Really?

There are things we will never see eye to eye on so the debate at this point is a bit meaningless. There are extremists on both sides of the spectrum and there are the level-headed ones. I am mildly extreme and tend to have highly negative views of Catholicism based on my interpretation of the book of Revelation.

 

[Goatee]

There are things we will never see eye to eye on so the debate at this point is a bit meaningless. There are extremists on both sides of the spectrum and there are the level-headed ones. I am mildly extreme and tend to have highly negative views of Catholicism based on my interpretation of the book of Revelation.

I believe that most of Revelations has come to pass, AD70.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

I believe that most of Revelations has come to pass, AD70.

Ah, so you're a preterist. I'm a futurist, in fact, a historic premillennialist. We all have our views.