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Roman Catholic..anything wrong with it?

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kepha31

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The only big issue I have with Catholics is that the assumed infallibility of the pope. It is not a clear cut issue (as in this Papal Infallibility | Catholic Answers), but this is easily lead people astray as it can put Pope equal to the Bible, and the Bible tell us all humans sin, there is not one good one.
You haven't read it carefully. Infallibility has nothing to do with sinful leaders. The Pope equal to the Bible is an absurd impossibility, and it's not in that link either.

Briefly, infallibility means teaching without error; it has nothing to do with impeccability, which means living without sinning. Infallibility comes from the words of Jesus, not popes, bishops or councils. Infallibility is a promise of Jesus, it is not some Catholic invention.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.

Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. (heaven cannot bind an error) This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus promises that He will be with the Church ALWAYS. Jesus' presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived.

Tell me, what year did Jesus break His promises and abandoned His Church?


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kepha31

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That is why I said it is not a clear cut matter and provided a link basically said what you said.

However the danger here is this claim can be easily used to mislead, and in the middle ages this is why people use gold to buy out their sins.
That is anti-Catholic hate propaganda. One could never "buy out their sins".
Myths about Indulgences | Catholic Answers
 
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Erose

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That is why I said it is not a clear cut matter and provided a link basically said what you said.
Actually it is a clear cut matter, as proclaimed at Vatican I

However the danger here is this claim can be easily used to mislead, and in the middle ages this is why people use gold to buy out their sins.
Papal Infallibilty had nothing to do with the selling of indulgences, rather it was due to ignorance of doctrine. This issue was due to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] poor corrupt preachers trying to take advantage of a situation, by misleading ignorant people.

Even Luther when he complained about the issue knew that the selling of indulgences wasn't Catholic teaching, as this would fall under the sin of usury. Rather his issue was to the slow (or from his view no) response of the Church to deal with the issue.
 
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dcalling

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That is anti-Catholic hate propaganda. One could never "buy out their sins".
Myths about Indulgences | Catholic Answers

It is what happened in the middle ages. The church's position may be clear but it can be easily misused, as we are all sinners. Over all any attempt to give power to someone will likely result in sin, it is not just a Catholic issue, as all churches have this issue, but this is more prevanlent as the Catholic church is the biggest of all, and such language as "infallible" even when correct meaning is not good. Just look at the Gospel on violence, there is none because God knows we will misuse it.
 
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dcalling

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Actually it is a clear cut matter, as proclaimed at Vatican I


Papal Infallibilty had nothing to do with the selling of indulgences, rather it was due to ignorance of doctrine. This issue was due to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] poor corrupt preachers trying to take advantage of a situation, by misleading ignorant people.

Even Luther when he complained about the issue knew that the selling of indulgences wasn't Catholic teaching, as this would fall under the sin of usury. Rather his issue was to the slow (or from his view no) response of the Church to deal with the issue.

Thanks for the clarification. It is definitely human nature.
 
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kepha31

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and such language as "infallible" even when correct meaning is not good. Just look at the Gospel on violence, there is none because God knows we will misuse it.
I've given just a few scriptures on infallibly in post #162, but the subject is not that simple.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Infallibility

The Jerusalem Council certainly regarded its teachings as infallible, and guided by the Holy Spirit Himself.

The Bible repeatedly teaches that the Church is indefectible; therefore, the hypothetical of rejecting the (one true, historic) Church, as supposedly going against the Bible, is impossible according to the Bible. It is not a situation that would ever come up, because of God’s promised protection.

We believe in faith that the Church is infallible and indefectible, based on many biblical indications.

Protestants don’t have enough faith to believe that God could preserve an infallible Church, even though they can muster up even more faith than that, which is required to believe in an infallible Bible written by a bunch of sinners and hypocrites.

We simply have more faith than you guys do. It’s a supernatural gift. We believe that the authoritative Church is also a key part of God’s plan to save the souls of men. We follow the model of the Jerusalem Council, whereas you guys reject that or ignore it, because it doesn’t fit in with the man-made tradition of Protestantism and a supposedly non-infallible Church.
 
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Jeepneytravel

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I've given just a few scriptures on infallibly in post #162, but the subject is not that simple.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Infallibility

The Jerusalem Council certainly regarded its teachings as infallible, and guided by the Holy Spirit Himself.

The Bible repeatedly teaches that the Church is indefectible; therefore, the hypothetical of rejecting the (one true, historic) Church, as supposedly going against the Bible, is impossible according to the Bible. It is not a situation that would ever come up, because of God’s promised protection.

We believe in faith that the Church is infallible and indefectible, based on many biblical indications.

Protestants don’t have enough faith to believe that God could preserve an infallible Church, even though they can muster up even more faith than that, which is required to believe in an infallible Bible written by a bunch of sinners and hypocrites.

We simply have more faith than you guys do. It’s a supernatural gift. We believe that the authoritative Church is also a key part of God’s plan to save the souls of men. We follow the model of the Jerusalem Council, whereas you guys reject that or ignore it, because it doesn’t fit in with the man-made tradition of Protestantism and a supposedly non-infallible Church.[/QUOte





Revelation 17 and harlot and her daughter squabbling....
 
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ViaCrucis

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I have no idea how they can twist the scripture in regards to graven images so they can sculpt, y'know, graven likenesses of Mary and the saints.

Or like how the Israelites could sculpt, y'know, cherubim atop the Ark of the Covenant by God's own command. Almost like the prohibition against graven images isn't a prohibition against all images, but is a prohibition against idolatry.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Ah okay, I haven't gone through the Old Testament very much. Just an opinion, but it seems like a poor defense for allowing icons (statues) into the Church. To make any likeness of Christ would be to mock His very holiness.

I recommend that you look into the Iconoclast controversy, these arguments were already hashed out over a thousand years ago. Iconoclasm is heresy because at the heart of Iconoclasm is the rejection and denial the Incarnation.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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kepha31

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Why don't you get off your high horse and admit you are wrong? Denial is a wonderful thing but in your case it gets sickening...you are unable to deal with any one of the points I raised to admit it.
I can deal with all of your points, I just refuse to deal with a rant which shows you are not interested. I already said I would deal with one at a time, not 5 at once, and you can't even do that much.
 
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kepha31

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Many things wrong with Roman Catholicism:

The insufficiency of the cross of Jesus Christ, as demonstrated by the blasphemy of the Mass.
Transubstantiation.
Purgatory.
Indulgences.
Synergism.
Papal Infallibility.
Immaculate Conception of Mary.
Mary as co-redemptrix.
Mary as eternal virgin.
Priests absolving sin.
Denying Sola Scriptura.
Sacerdotal Priesthood.
Salvific grace in infant baptism.
Meriting extra grace through the sacraments.
Treasury of Merit.
Praying to dead saints.
Venerating Mary and other dead saints.
Scapular.
Sola Ekklesia.
et. al.
Once again, we have a cluster bomber, with 18 topics. This is a clear indication of an inability or fear of meaningful discussion. Well, I can play the same game.

1. Best One-Sentence Summary: I am convinced that the Catholic Church conforms much more closely to all of the biblical data, offers the only coherent view of the history of Christianity (i.e., Christian, apostolic Tradition), and possesses the most profound and sublime Christian morality, spirituality, social ethic, and philosophy.

2. Alternate: I am a Catholic because I sincerely believe, by virtue of much cumulative evidence, that Catholicism is true, and that the Catholic Church is the visible Church divinely established by our Lord Jesus, against which the gates of hell cannot and will not prevail (Mt 16:18), thereby possessing an authority to which I feel bound in Christian duty to submit.
3. 2nd Alternate: I left Protestantism because it was seriously deficient in its interpretation of the Bible (e.g., “faith alone” and its missing many other “Catholic” doctrines – see evidences below), inconsistently selective in its espousal of various doctrines of Catholic Tradition (e.g., the canon of the Bible), inadequate in its ecclesiology, lacking a sensible view of Christian history (e.g., “Scripture alone”; ignorance or inconsistent understanding of of development of doctrine), compromised morally (e.g., contraception, divorce), and unbiblically schismatic and (in effect, or logical reduction, if not always in actual belief) relativistic.

Disclaimer: I don’t therefore believe that Protestantism is all bad (not by a long shot – indeed, I think it is a pretty good thing overall), but these are some of the major deficiencies I eventually saw as fatal to the “theory” of Protestantism, over against Catholicism. All Catholics must regard baptized, Nicene, Chalcedonian Protestants as Christians.


4. Catholicism isn’t formally divided and sectarian (Jn 17:20-23; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 1:10-13).

5. Catholic unity makes Christianity and Jesus more believable to the world (Jn 17:23).

6. Catholicism, because of its unified, complete, fully supernatural Christian vision, mitigates against secularization and humanism.

7. Catholicism (institutionally) avoids (and/or has the remedy to) an unbiblical individualism which undermines Christian community (e.g., 1 Cor 12:25-26).

8. Catholicism avoids theological relativism, by means of dogmatic certainty and the centrality of the papacy.

9. Catholicism avoids ecclesiological anarchism – one cannot merely jump to another denomination when some disciplinary measure or censure is called for.

10. Catholicism formally prevents the theological “pick and choose” state of affairs, which leads to the uncertainties and “every man for himself” confusion within the Protestant system among laypeople.

11. Catholicism rejects the “State Church,” which has led to governments dominating Christianity rather than vice versa, caesaropapism, or a nominal, merely “go through the motions” institutional religion.

12. Protestant State Churches greatly influenced the rise of nationalism, which mitigated against equality of all men and the universal nature of historic Christianity (i.e., catholicism in its literal meaning).

13. Unified Catholic Christendom (before the 16th century) had not been plagued by the tragic, Christian vs. Christian religious wars which in turn led to the “Enlightenment,” in which men rejected the hypocrisy of inter-Christian warfare and decided to become indifferent to religion rather than letting it guide their lives.

14. Catholicism retains (to the fullest extent) the elements of mystery, supernatural, and the sacred in Christianity, thus opposing itself to secularization, where the sphere of the religious in life becomes greatly limited.

15. Protestant individualism led to the privatization of Christianity, whereby it is little respected in societal and political life, leaving the “public square” largely barren of Christian influence.

16. The secular false dichotomy of “church vs. world” has led committed orthodox Christians, by and large, to withdraw from politics, leaving a void filled by pagans, cynics, the unscrupulous, the power-hungry, and the Machiavellian. Catholicism offers a sensible, internally-coherent framework in which to approach the state and civic responsibility.

17. Protestantism leans too much on mere traditions of men. Every denomination stems from one founder’s vision, which contradicts something previously received from apostolic Tradition and passed down. As soon as two or more of these contradict each other, error is necessarily present.

18. Protestant churches (especially evangelicals), are far too often guilty of putting their pastors on too high of a pedestal. In effect, often pastors (at least in some denominational traditions) becomes a “pope,” to varying degrees. Because of this, evangelical congregations often experience a severe crisis and/or split up when a pastor leaves, thus proving that their philosophy is overly man-centered, rather than God-centered (Catholic parishes usually don’t experience such a crisis when a priest departs). Many pastors have far more power in their congregations than the pope has over the daily life of any Catholic.

19. Protestantism, due to lack of real authority and dogmatic structure, is tragically prone to accommodation to the spirit of the age, and moral faddism.

20. Catholicism retains apostolic succession, necessary to know what is true Christian apostolic Tradition. It was the criterion of Christian truth used by the early Christians and the Church Fathers.

21. Many Protestants take a dim view towards Christian history in general, especially the years from 313 (Constantine’s conversion) to 1517 (Luther’s arrival). This ignorance and hostility to Catholic Tradition leads to theological relativism, anti-Catholicism, and a constant, unnecessary process of “reinventing the wheel.”

22. Protestantism from its inception was anti-Catholic, and certain factions of it remain so to this day (especially in certain fundamentalist and Baptist and Reformed circles). This is obviously wrong and unbiblical if Catholicism is indeed Christian (if it isn’t, then – logically – neither is Protestantism, which inherited the bulk of its theology from Catholicism). The Catholic Church, on the other hand, is not anti-Protestant.

23. The Catholic Church accepts the authority of the great ecumenical councils (see, e.g., Acts 15) which defined and developed Christian doctrine (much of which Protestantism also accepts).

24. Most Protestants do not have bishops, a Christian office which is biblical (1 Tim 3:1-2) and which has existed from the earliest Christian history and Tradition.

25. Protestantism has no way of settling doctrinal issues definitively. At best, the individual Protestant can only take a head count of how many Protestant scholars, commentators, etc. take such-and-such a view on Doctrine X, Y, or Z. Or (in a more sophisticated fashion), the Protestant can simply accept the authority of some denominational tradition, confession, or creed (which then has to be justified over against the other competing ones). There is no unified Protestant Tradition.

26. Protestantism arose in 1517, and is a “Johnny-come-lately” in the history of Christianity (having introduced many doctrines previously accepted by no Christian group, or very few individuals). Therefore it cannot possibly be the “restoration” of “pure”, “primitive” Christianity, since this is ruled out by the fact of its novelties and absurdly late appearance. Christianity must have historic continuity or it is not Christianity. Protestantism is necessarily a “parasite” of Catholicism: historically and doctrinally speaking.

27. The notion (common among many Protestants) of the “invisible church” is also novel in the history of Christianity and foreign to the Bible (Mt 5:14; 16:18), therefore untrue.

30. The lack of a definitive teaching authority in Protestant (as with the Catholic magisterium) makes many individual Protestants think that they have a direct line to God, notwithstanding all of Christian Tradition and the history of biblical exegesis (a “Bible, Holy Spirit and me” mentality). Such people are generally under-educated theologically, unteachable, lack humility, and have no business making presumed “infallible” statements about the nature of Christianity.

35. Catholicism retains the sense of the sacred, the sublime, the holy, and the beautiful in spirituality. The ideas of altar, and “sacred space” are preserved. Many Protestant churches are no more than “meeting halls” or “gymnasiums” or “barn”-type structures. Most Protestants’ homes are more esthetically striking than their churches. Likewise, Protestants (particularly fundamentalists and too many evangelicals) are often “addicted to mediocrity” in their appreciation of art, music, architecture, drama, the imagination, etc.

37. Too many brands of Protestantism tend to oppose matter and spirit, favoring the latter, and sometimes exhibit Gnostic or Docetic strains of thought in this regard.

38. Catholicism upholds in the fullest way the “incarnational principle,” wherein Jesus became flesh and thus raised flesh and matter to new spiritual heights.

39. Some strains of Protestantism (particularly evangelicalism and pentecostalism and especially the Baptists) greatly limit or disbelieve in sacramentalism, which is simply the extension of the incarnational principle and the belief that matter can convey grace. Some sects (e.g., Quakers and the Salvation Army) reject all sacraments.

43. Most Protestants (Lutherans and high-church Anglicans being the exception) believe in a merely symbolic Eucharist, which is contrary to universal Christian Tradition up to 1517, and the Bible (Mt 26:26-8; Jn 6:47-63; 1 Cor 10:14-22; 11:23-30), which hold to the Real Presence (another instance of the antipathy to matter).

44. Protestantism almost universally denies the sacramentality of marriage, contrary to Christian Tradition and the Bible (Mt 19:4-5; 1 Cor 7:14,39; Eph 5:25-33).

45. Protestantism has abolished the priesthood (Mt 18:18) and the sacrament of ordination, contrary to Christian Tradition and the Bible (Acts 6:6; 14:22; 1 Tim 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6).

70. Some strains of Protestantism (especially evangelicalism and fundamentalism) have an undue fascination for – even obsession with – the “end of the world,” which has led to unbiblical date-setting (Mt 24:30-44; 25:13; Lk 12:39-40) and much human tragedy among those who are taken in by such false prophecies.

71. Over-emphasis on the “imminent end” of the age (where found in Protestantism) has often led to a certain “pie-in-the sky” mentality, to the detriment of social, political, ethical, and economic sensibilities here on earth.

72. Protestant thought has a strong characteristic or tendency of being “dichotomous,” i.e., it separates ideas into more or less exclusive and mutually-hostile camps, when in fact many of the dichotomies are simply complementary rather than contradictory. Protestantism has been described as an “either-or” system, whereas Catholicism takes a “both-and” approach. Examples follow:

73. Protestantism pits the Word (the Bible, preaching) against sacraments.

74. Protestantism sets up inner devotion and piety against liturgy.

75. Protestantism opposes spontaneous worship to form prayers.

76. Protestantism separates the Bible from the Church.

77. Protestantism creates the false dichotomy of Bible vs. Tradition.

78. Protestantism pits Tradition against the Holy Spirit.

79. Protestantism considers (binding) Church authority and individual liberty and conscience contradictory.

80. Some forms of Protestantism (notably Luther and present-day dispensationalists) set up the Old Testament against the New Testament, even though Jesus did not do so (Mt 5:17-19; Mk 7:8-11; Lk 24:27,44; Jn 5:45-47).

101. The Bible doesn’t contain the whole of Jesus’ teaching, or Christianity, as many Protestants believe (Mk 4:33; 6:34; Lk 24:15-16,25-27; Jn 16:12; 20:30; 21:25; Acts 1:2-3).

102. Sola scriptura is an abuse of the Bible, since it is a use of the Bible contrary to its explicit and implicit testimony about itself and Tradition. An objective reading of the Bible leads one to Tradition and the Catholic Church, rather than the opposite. The Bible is, in fact, undeniably a Christian Tradition itself.

109. The concepts of “Tradition,” “gospel,” “word of God,” “doctrine,” and “the Faith” are essentially synonymous, and all are predominantly oral. For example, in the Thessalonian epistles alone St. Paul uses 3 of these interchangeably (2 Thess 2:15; 3:6; 1 Thess 2:9,13 (cf. Gal 1:9; Acts 8:14). If Tradition is a dirty word, then so is “gospel” and “word of God”.

122...How could the Catholic Church be “against the Bible,” as anti-Catholics say, yet at the same time preserve and revere the Bible profoundly for so many years? The very thought is so absurd as to be self-refuting. If Catholicism is indeed as heinous as anti-Catholics would have us believe, Protestantism ought to put together its own Bible, instead of using the one delivered to them by the Catholic Church, as it obviously could not be trusted.

123. Protestantism denies the Sacrifice of the Mass, contrary to Christian Tradition and the Bible (Gen 14:18; Ps 110:4; Isa 66:18,21; Mal 1:11; Heb 7:24-5; 13:10; Rev 5:1-10; cf. 8:3; 13:8). Catholicism, it must be emphasized, doesn’t believe that Jesus is sacrificed over and over at each Mass; rather, each Mass is a representation of the one Sacrifice at Calvary on the Cross, which transcends space and time, as in Rev 13:8.

124. Many Protestants disbelieve or distort beyond recognition, the development of doctrine, contrary to Christian Tradition and many implicit biblical indications. Whenever the Bible refers to the increasing knowledge and maturity of Christians individually and (particularly) collectively, an idea similar to development is present. Further, many doctrines develop in the Bible before our eyes (“progressive revelation”). Examples: the afterlife, the Trinity, acceptance of Gentiles. And doctrines which Protestantism accepts whole and entire from Catholicism, such as the Trinity and the canon of the Bible, developed in history, in the first three centuries of Christianity. It is foolish to try and deny this. The Church is the “Body” of Christ, and is a living organism, which grows and develops like all living bodies. It is not a statue, simply to be cleaned and polished over time, as many Protestants seem to think.

130. Contrary to Protestant myth and anti-Catholicism, the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that one is saved by works apart from preceding and enabling grace, but that faith and works are inseparable, as in James 1 and 2. This heresy of which Catholicism is often charged, was in fact condemned by the Catholic Church at the Second Council of Orange in 529 A.D.

136. Protestantism has rejected (largely due to misconceptions and misunderstanding) the Catholic developed doctrine of indulgences, which is, simply, the remission of the temporal punishment for sin (i.e., penance), by the Church (on the grounds of Mt 16:19; 18:18, and Jn 20:23). This is no different than what St. Paul did, concerning an errant brother at the Church of Corinth. He first imposed a penance on him (1 Cor 5:3-5), then remitted part of it (an indulgence: 2 Cor 2:6-11). Just because abuses occurred prior to the Protestant Revolt (admitted and rectified by the Catholic Church), is no reason to toss out yet another biblical doctrine. Yet it is sadly typical of Protestantism to burn down a house rather than to cleanse it, to “throw the baby out with the bath water.”

150. Last but by no means least, Catholicism has the most sublime spirituality and devotional spirit, manifested in a thousand different ways, from the monastic ideal, to the heroic celibacy and pure devotion and service to God of the clergy and religious, the Catholic hospitals, the sheer holiness of a Thomas a Kempis or a St. Ignatius Loyola and their great devotional books, countless saints – both canonized and as yet unknown and unsung, Mother Teresa, Pope John Paul II, Pope John XXIII, the early martyrs, St. Francis of Assisi, the events at Lourdes and Fatima, the dazzling intellect of Venerable John Henry Cardinal Newman, the wisdom and insight of Archbishop Fulton Sheen, St. John of the Cross, the sanctified wit of a Chesterton or a Muggeridge, elderly women doing the Stations of the Cross or the Rosary, Holy Hour, Benediction, kneeling – the list goes on and on. This devotional spirit is, I humbly submit, unmatched in its scope and deepness, despite many fine counterparts in Protestant and Orthodox spirituality.

150 Reasons Why I Became (and Remain) a Catholic

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JoeP has been infected by anti-Catholicism​
 
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DamianWarS

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For people who do not follow the Bible they sure made a lot of copies of the originals. Our beloved King James Version was based on the first printed manuscript of the original Greek, Textus Receptus, produced by a Catholic scholar. There are some issues with ecclesiastical (church) authority, their councils and their popes. But no self respecting Catholic would deny the authority of Scripture, they have worked tirelessly to preserve it and cherish it as all Christians should.

the KJV was finished publication in 1611. For its greek portions it is based off of the 1550 edition of the textus receptus (TR) which was a bunch of revisions from the original of 1516 by a dutch man named Erasmus. Erasmus was the best theologian there was in Holland at the time and although he thought there was abuse in the catholic church he didn't engaged the reformation and instead thought it best to reform from within. Calvinism seems to have been most influential in Holland and it hit in the mid 16th century after Erasmus had died.

Stephanus is credited with the 1550 edition which the KJV uses as its base greek text but what he did is make it more readable than change the text. Stephanus was born before the reformation so of course he was a Catholic but later became a protestant. He was well acquainted with ancient languages but I see him more a businessman than a theologian. Even still he's the guy who is responsible for the greek base text that the KJV is based on.

The reformation is birthed in the wake of the invention of the printing press (in the mid-15th century) and this is no mistake. Because of the printing press more people had access to scripture so more people had things to say about it. This was the renaissance and the TR parallels the reformation and it's rise. Tydal made his english translation off of an early version of the TR which got him burned at the stake and luther made his german version also from the TR. Erasmus may have taken a more conservative approach to reforming but he undoubtedly was a key player to the reformation. At the time Catholics valued the scripture in Latin, Greek and Hebrew but did not value translations of scriptures into modern languages; they actually were quite opposed to it.
 
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Gabriel Anton

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Once again, we have a cluster bomber, with 18 topics. This is a clear indication of an inability or fear of meaningful discussion. Well, I can play the same game.

1. Best One-Sentence Summary: I am convinced that the Catholic Church conforms much more closely to all of the biblical data, offers the only coherent view of the history of Christianity (i.e., Christian, apostolic Tradition), and possesses the most profound and sublime Christian morality, spirituality, social ethic, and philosophy.

2. Alternate: I am a Catholic because I sincerely believe, by virtue of much cumulative evidence, that Catholicism is true, and that the Catholic Church is the visible Church divinely established by our Lord Jesus, against which the gates of hell cannot and will not prevail (Mt 16:18), thereby possessing an authority to which I feel bound in Christian duty to submit.
3. 2nd Alternate: I left Protestantism because it was seriously deficient in its interpretation of the Bible (e.g., “faith alone” and its missing many other “Catholic” doctrines – see evidences below), inconsistently selective in its espousal of various doctrines of Catholic Tradition (e.g., the canon of the Bible), inadequate in its ecclesiology, lacking a sensible view of Christian history (e.g., “Scripture alone”; ignorance or inconsistent understanding of of development of doctrine), compromised morally (e.g., contraception, divorce), and unbiblically schismatic and (in effect, or logical reduction, if not always in actual belief) relativistic.

Disclaimer: I don’t therefore believe that Protestantism is all bad (not by a long shot – indeed, I think it is a pretty good thing overall), but these are some of the major deficiencies I eventually saw as fatal to the “theory” of Protestantism, over against Catholicism. All Catholics must regard baptized, Nicene, Chalcedonian Protestants as Christians.


4. Catholicism isn’t formally divided and sectarian (Jn 17:20-23; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 1:10-13).

5. Catholic unity makes Christianity and Jesus more believable to the world (Jn 17:23).

6. Catholicism, because of its unified, complete, fully supernatural Christian vision, mitigates against secularization and humanism.

7. Catholicism (institutionally) avoids (and/or has the remedy to) an unbiblical individualism which undermines Christian community (e.g., 1 Cor 12:25-26).

8. Catholicism avoids theological relativism, by means of dogmatic certainty and the centrality of the papacy.

9. Catholicism avoids ecclesiological anarchism – one cannot merely jump to another denomination when some disciplinary measure or censure is called for.

10. Catholicism formally prevents the theological “pick and choose” state of affairs, which leads to the uncertainties and “every man for himself” confusion within the Protestant system among laypeople.

11. Catholicism rejects the “State Church,” which has led to governments dominating Christianity rather than vice versa, caesaropapism, or a nominal, merely “go through the motions” institutional religion.

12. Protestant State Churches greatly influenced the rise of nationalism, which mitigated against equality of all men and the universal nature of historic Christianity (i.e., catholicism in its literal meaning).

13. Unified Catholic Christendom (before the 16th century) had not been plagued by the tragic, Christian vs. Christian religious wars which in turn led to the “Enlightenment,” in which men rejected the hypocrisy of inter-Christian warfare and decided to become indifferent to religion rather than letting it guide their lives.

14. Catholicism retains (to the fullest extent) the elements of mystery, supernatural, and the sacred in Christianity, thus opposing itself to secularization, where the sphere of the religious in life becomes greatly limited.

15. Protestant individualism led to the privatization of Christianity, whereby it is little respected in societal and political life, leaving the “public square” largely barren of Christian influence.

16. The secular false dichotomy of “church vs. world” has led committed orthodox Christians, by and large, to withdraw from politics, leaving a void filled by pagans, cynics, the unscrupulous, the power-hungry, and the Machiavellian. Catholicism offers a sensible, internally-coherent framework in which to approach the state and civic responsibility.

17. Protestantism leans too much on mere traditions of men. Every denomination stems from one founder’s vision, which contradicts something previously received from apostolic Tradition and passed down. As soon as two or more of these contradict each other, error is necessarily present.

18. Protestant churches (especially evangelicals), are far too often guilty of putting their pastors on too high of a pedestal. In effect, often pastors (at least in some denominational traditions) becomes a “pope,” to varying degrees. Because of this, evangelical congregations often experience a severe crisis and/or split up when a pastor leaves, thus proving that their philosophy is overly man-centered, rather than God-centered (Catholic parishes usually don’t experience such a crisis when a priest departs). Many pastors have far more power in their congregations than the pope has over the daily life of any Catholic.

19. Protestantism, due to lack of real authority and dogmatic structure, is tragically prone to accommodation to the spirit of the age, and moral faddism.

20. Catholicism retains apostolic succession, necessary to know what is true Christian apostolic Tradition. It was the criterion of Christian truth used by the early Christians and the Church Fathers.

21. Many Protestants take a dim view towards Christian history in general, especially the years from 313 (Constantine’s conversion) to 1517 (Luther’s arrival). This ignorance and hostility to Catholic Tradition leads to theological relativism, anti-Catholicism, and a constant, unnecessary process of “reinventing the wheel.”

22. Protestantism from its inception was anti-Catholic, and certain factions of it remain so to this day (especially in certain fundamentalist and Baptist and Reformed circles). This is obviously wrong and unbiblical if Catholicism is indeed Christian (if it isn’t, then – logically – neither is Protestantism, which inherited the bulk of its theology from Catholicism). The Catholic Church, on the other hand, is not anti-Protestant.

23. The Catholic Church accepts the authority of the great ecumenical councils (see, e.g., Acts 15) which defined and developed Christian doctrine (much of which Protestantism also accepts).

24. Most Protestants do not have bishops, a Christian office which is biblical (1 Tim 3:1-2) and which has existed from the earliest Christian history and Tradition.

25. Protestantism has no way of settling doctrinal issues definitively. At best, the individual Protestant can only take a head count of how many Protestant scholars, commentators, etc. take such-and-such a view on Doctrine X, Y, or Z. Or (in a more sophisticated fashion), the Protestant can simply accept the authority of some denominational tradition, confession, or creed (which then has to be justified over against the other competing ones). There is no unified Protestant Tradition.

26. Protestantism arose in 1517, and is a “Johnny-come-lately” in the history of Christianity (having introduced many doctrines previously accepted by no Christian group, or very few individuals). Therefore it cannot possibly be the “restoration” of “pure”, “primitive” Christianity, since this is ruled out by the fact of its novelties and absurdly late appearance. Christianity must have historic continuity or it is not Christianity. Protestantism is necessarily a “parasite” of Catholicism: historically and doctrinally speaking.

27. The notion (common among many Protestants) of the “invisible church” is also novel in the history of Christianity and foreign to the Bible (Mt 5:14; 16:18), therefore untrue.

30. The lack of a definitive teaching authority in Protestant (as with the Catholic magisterium) makes many individual Protestants think that they have a direct line to God, notwithstanding all of Christian Tradition and the history of biblical exegesis (a “Bible, Holy Spirit and me” mentality). Such people are generally under-educated theologically, unteachable, lack humility, and have no business making presumed “infallible” statements about the nature of Christianity.

35. Catholicism retains the sense of the sacred, the sublime, the holy, and the beautiful in spirituality. The ideas of altar, and “sacred space” are preserved. Many Protestant churches are no more than “meeting halls” or “gymnasiums” or “barn”-type structures. Most Protestants’ homes are more esthetically striking than their churches. Likewise, Protestants (particularly fundamentalists and too many evangelicals) are often “addicted to mediocrity” in their appreciation of art, music, architecture, drama, the imagination, etc.

37. Too many brands of Protestantism tend to oppose matter and spirit, favoring the latter, and sometimes exhibit Gnostic or Docetic strains of thought in this regard.

38. Catholicism upholds in the fullest way the “incarnational principle,” wherein Jesus became flesh and thus raised flesh and matter to new spiritual heights.

39. Some strains of Protestantism (particularly evangelicalism and pentecostalism and especially the Baptists) greatly limit or disbelieve in sacramentalism, which is simply the extension of the incarnational principle and the belief that matter can convey grace. Some sects (e.g., Quakers and the Salvation Army) reject all sacraments.

43. Most Protestants (Lutherans and high-church Anglicans being the exception) believe in a merely symbolic Eucharist, which is contrary to universal Christian Tradition up to 1517, and the Bible (Mt 26:26-8; Jn 6:47-63; 1 Cor 10:14-22; 11:23-30), which hold to the Real Presence (another instance of the antipathy to matter).

44. Protestantism almost universally denies the sacramentality of marriage, contrary to Christian Tradition and the Bible (Mt 19:4-5; 1 Cor 7:14,39; Eph 5:25-33).

45. Protestantism has abolished the priesthood (Mt 18:18) and the sacrament of ordination, contrary to Christian Tradition and the Bible (Acts 6:6; 14:22; 1 Tim 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6).

70. Some strains of Protestantism (especially evangelicalism and fundamentalism) have an undue fascination for – even obsession with – the “end of the world,” which has led to unbiblical date-setting (Mt 24:30-44; 25:13; Lk 12:39-40) and much human tragedy among those who are taken in by such false prophecies.

71. Over-emphasis on the “imminent end” of the age (where found in Protestantism) has often led to a certain “pie-in-the sky” mentality, to the detriment of social, political, ethical, and economic sensibilities here on earth.

72. Protestant thought has a strong characteristic or tendency of being “dichotomous,” i.e., it separates ideas into more or less exclusive and mutually-hostile camps, when in fact many of the dichotomies are simply complementary rather than contradictory. Protestantism has been described as an “either-or” system, whereas Catholicism takes a “both-and” approach. Examples follow:

73. Protestantism pits the Word (the Bible, preaching) against sacraments.

74. Protestantism sets up inner devotion and piety against liturgy.

75. Protestantism opposes spontaneous worship to form prayers.

76. Protestantism separates the Bible from the Church.

77. Protestantism creates the false dichotomy of Bible vs. Tradition.

78. Protestantism pits Tradition against the Holy Spirit.

79. Protestantism considers (binding) Church authority and individual liberty and conscience contradictory.

80. Some forms of Protestantism (notably Luther and present-day dispensationalists) set up the Old Testament against the New Testament, even though Jesus did not do so (Mt 5:17-19; Mk 7:8-11; Lk 24:27,44; Jn 5:45-47).

101. The Bible doesn’t contain the whole of Jesus’ teaching, or Christianity, as many Protestants believe (Mk 4:33; 6:34; Lk 24:15-16,25-27; Jn 16:12; 20:30; 21:25; Acts 1:2-3).

102. Sola scriptura is an abuse of the Bible, since it is a use of the Bible contrary to its explicit and implicit testimony about itself and Tradition. An objective reading of the Bible leads one to Tradition and the Catholic Church, rather than the opposite. The Bible is, in fact, undeniably a Christian Tradition itself.

109. The concepts of “Tradition,” “gospel,” “word of God,” “doctrine,” and “the Faith” are essentially synonymous, and all are predominantly oral. For example, in the Thessalonian epistles alone St. Paul uses 3 of these interchangeably (2 Thess 2:15; 3:6; 1 Thess 2:9,13 (cf. Gal 1:9; Acts 8:14). If Tradition is a dirty word, then so is “gospel” and “word of God”.

122...How could the Catholic Church be “against the Bible,” as anti-Catholics say, yet at the same time preserve and revere the Bible profoundly for so many years? The very thought is so absurd as to be self-refuting. If Catholicism is indeed as heinous as anti-Catholics would have us believe, Protestantism ought to put together its own Bible, instead of using the one delivered to them by the Catholic Church, as it obviously could not be trusted.

123. Protestantism denies the Sacrifice of the Mass, contrary to Christian Tradition and the Bible (Gen 14:18; Ps 110:4; Isa 66:18,21; Mal 1:11; Heb 7:24-5; 13:10; Rev 5:1-10; cf. 8:3; 13:8). Catholicism, it must be emphasized, doesn’t believe that Jesus is sacrificed over and over at each Mass; rather, each Mass is a representation of the one Sacrifice at Calvary on the Cross, which transcends space and time, as in Rev 13:8.

124. Many Protestants disbelieve or distort beyond recognition, the development of doctrine, contrary to Christian Tradition and many implicit biblical indications. Whenever the Bible refers to the increasing knowledge and maturity of Christians individually and (particularly) collectively, an idea similar to development is present. Further, many doctrines develop in the Bible before our eyes (“progressive revelation”). Examples: the afterlife, the Trinity, acceptance of Gentiles. And doctrines which Protestantism accepts whole and entire from Catholicism, such as the Trinity and the canon of the Bible, developed in history, in the first three centuries of Christianity. It is foolish to try and deny this. The Church is the “Body” of Christ, and is a living organism, which grows and develops like all living bodies. It is not a statue, simply to be cleaned and polished over time, as many Protestants seem to think.

130. Contrary to Protestant myth and anti-Catholicism, the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that one is saved by works apart from preceding and enabling grace, but that faith and works are inseparable, as in James 1 and 2. This heresy of which Catholicism is often charged, was in fact condemned by the Catholic Church at the Second Council of Orange in 529 A.D.

136. Protestantism has rejected (largely due to misconceptions and misunderstanding) the Catholic developed doctrine of indulgences, which is, simply, the remission of the temporal punishment for sin (i.e., penance), by the Church (on the grounds of Mt 16:19; 18:18, and Jn 20:23). This is no different than what St. Paul did, concerning an errant brother at the Church of Corinth. He first imposed a penance on him (1 Cor 5:3-5), then remitted part of it (an indulgence: 2 Cor 2:6-11). Just because abuses occurred prior to the Protestant Revolt (admitted and rectified by the Catholic Church), is no reason to toss out yet another biblical doctrine. Yet it is sadly typical of Protestantism to burn down a house rather than to cleanse it, to “throw the baby out with the bath water.”

150. Last but by no means least, Catholicism has the most sublime spirituality and devotional spirit, manifested in a thousand different ways, from the monastic ideal, to the heroic celibacy and pure devotion and service to God of the clergy and religious, the Catholic hospitals, the sheer holiness of a Thomas a Kempis or a St. Ignatius Loyola and their great devotional books, countless saints – both canonized and as yet unknown and unsung, Mother Teresa, Pope John Paul II, Pope John XXIII, the early martyrs, St. Francis of Assisi, the events at Lourdes and Fatima, the dazzling intellect of Venerable John Henry Cardinal Newman, the wisdom and insight of Archbishop Fulton Sheen, St. John of the Cross, the sanctified wit of a Chesterton or a Muggeridge, elderly women doing the Stations of the Cross or the Rosary, Holy Hour, Benediction, kneeling – the list goes on and on. This devotional spirit is, I humbly submit, unmatched in its scope and deepness, despite many fine counterparts in Protestant and Orthodox spirituality.

150 Reasons Why I Became (and Remain) a Catholic

10fbd14bf6b9e8c7bc91c13b8ddececc.jpg

JoeP has been infected by anti-Catholicism​

Peace be with you.

I like you, my Brother of the Catholic Faith.

Keep up the Good Work.

God bless you.
 
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mark kennedy

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the KJV was finished publication in 1611. For its greek portions it is based off of the 1550 edition of the textus receptus (TR) which was a bunch of revisions from the original of 1516 by a dutch man named Erasmus. Erasmus was the best theologian there was in Holland at the time and although he thought there was abuse in the catholic church he didn't engaged the reformation and instead thought it best to reform from within. Calvinism seems to have been most influential in Holland and it hit in the mid 16th century after Erasmus had died.

Stephanus is credited with the 1550 edition which the KJV uses as its base greek text but what he did is make it more readable than change the text. Stephanus was born before the reformation so of course he was a Catholic but later became a protestant. He was well acquainted with ancient languages but I see him more a businessman than a theologian. Even still he's the guy who is responsible for the greek base text that the KJV is based on.

The reformation is birthed in the wake of the invention of the printing press (in the mid-15th century) and this is no mistake. Because of the printing press more people had access to scripture so more people had things to say about it. This was the renaissance and the TR parallels the reformation and it's rise. Tydal made his english translation off of an early version of the TR which got him burned at the stake and luther made his german version also from the TR. Erasmus may have taken a more conservative approach to reforming but he undoubtedly was a key player to the reformation. At the time Catholics valued the scripture in Latin, Greek and Hebrew but did not value translations of scriptures into modern languages; they actually were quite opposed to it.
Thank you, that was informative. Clearly the early version of the Greek text was less them perfect but when through various rounds of revision. The way I get it Erasmus used the Vulgate to back edit the Byzantine text and relied on later versions of the Byzantine text. Stephanus appears to have made a substantial contribution to the revision of TR and the insidious textual variation of TR, has made it questionable but I think it's weathered the criticism fairly well. We do well to consider the enormity of the work Erasmus undertook, which should help to bring some of the mistakes more understandable.

Textual criticism is an important part of exegetical work but too much weight is placed on it. It distracts from the centuries of meticulous work that has made the Scriptures, in the originals, the best preserved writings from antiquity.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Goatee

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The only big issue I have with Catholics is that the assumed infallibility of the pope. It is not a clear cut issue (as in this Papal Infallibility | Catholic Answers), but this is easily lead people astray as it can put Pope equal to the Bible, and the Bible tell us all humans sin, there is not one good one.

Only non Catholics think like you! Catholic know that the Pope is fallible and a sinner. He is human.
 
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Goatee

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You haven't read it carefully. Infallibility has nothing to do with sinful leaders. The Pope equal to the Bible is an absurd impossibility, and it's not in that link either.

Briefly, infallibility means teaching without error; it has nothing to do with impeccability, which means living without sinning. Infallibility comes from the words of Jesus, not popes, bishops or councils. Infallibility is a promise of Jesus, it is not some Catholic invention.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.

Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. (heaven cannot bind an error) This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus promises that He will be with the Church ALWAYS. Jesus' presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived.

Tell me, what year did Jesus break His promises and abandoned His Church?


Catholic_Church_Africa_001.jpg

Brilliant post. Thanks for sharing your well educated points.
 
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Goatee

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Anyone that disagrees with you is a "rant".....I am glad Revelation 17 and 18 justice is just around the corner for the harlot religion and it's daughters.

That is uncalled for!
 
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seeking.IAM

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I can't help it. I wonder what Jesus thinks about well-intended Christians challenging other well-intended Christians? Following this thread of Christians against Christians reminds me of John 11:35.

"Jesus wept."
 
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