Role of Mary

[St. Amadeus]

Isn't the fact that Mary and Joseph are rooted in the Lineage of King David, and that Mary was a virgin enough for her to be chosen? Why does she have to be any more special than either of us? Jesus had to enter this world like any one of us in order to be 100% human, and Mary just happened to be the vessel God chose, because the Messiah was to be the Branch of David.

 

[Ainesis]

Nor does your mother reflect the essence of your father that is now a part of you. You didn't come completely from your mother....neither did Jesus. Part of you came from your mom and part from your dad....Just like Jesus. That doesn't mean that your mother isn't the mother of the part of you that came from your father.

Nor did I assert such. My comments were in response to Oblio's statement that the title of "mother" speaks to the essence of who Jesus is. It would seem that you agree that this title does not in fact speak to the essence of who Jesus is because there are parts of his essence/nature that did not come from her.

She is, however, mother of all of Jesus who is fully God and fully man.

 

[Ainesis]

While we are in the helping further relations mode it would do me a great honor if you would quite referring to anyone that is not CC or OC a protestant and spread that around as well.

This has been discussed before, but I guess furthering relations only goes so far, or maybe it is primarily one-sided?

 

[St. Amadeus]

She is, however, mother of all of Jesus who is fully God and fully man.

So... Jesus' divinity originated in Mary's womb then. Because that's what you are saying.

 

[Ainesis]

So... Jesus' divinity originated in Mary's womb then. Because that's what you are saying.

Jesus the Word, as divine, existed prior to Mary. However, Jesus incarnate was the Word made flesh. The Word was not made flesh until God did so by the Holy Ghost in Mary's womb. She carried this life as every mother would and bore into the world the manifestation of that life.

Mary is not the mother of the Word, but she is the mother of Jesus. If she was not His mother, then who was she?

 

[St. Amadeus]

God the Son, was born in Judea, in a lowely manger, among animals and filth, wrapped in rags. I mean, meditate on that. He entered the world in such lowely conditions, and not on accident. It was for a purpose.

 

[Ainesis]

God the Son, was born in Judea, in a lowely manger, among animals and filth, wrapped in rags. I mean, meditate on that. He entered the world in such lowely conditions, and not on accident. It was for a purpose.

Yes, so how was he born into the world? Who is the one who bore Him?

 

[St. Amadeus]

Mary is not the mother of the Word, but she is the mother of Jesus. If she was not His mother, then who was she?

I'm sorry, but I can't answer such a contradiction.

 

[St. Amadeus]

Yes, so how was he born into the world? Who is the one who bore Him?

He was born into the world the same way any one of us are born into the world. From the womb of a human woman. That is how He became flesh. That is how He became human, by being born from a human, and being knit together in her womb. Most likely, the Holy Spirit miraculously caused her ovum to split, using the genetic material already found in the egg cell. But that's just MY theory.

 

[Ainesis]

He was born into the world the same way any one of us are born into the world. From the womb of a human woman. That is how He became flesh. That is how He became human, by being born from a human, and being knit together in her womb.

Do you really mean that you believe he only became flesh in the process of being birthed versus forming flesh in her womb as any baby develops? Are we born into a human form or does God create us as human when we are conceived and we simply develop from there?

Most likely, the Holy Spirit miraculously caused her ovum to split, using the genetic material already found in the egg cell. But that's just MY theory.

Whoaa! That is a little too deep for me. For all I know, God merely spoke the Word and Jesus was conceived. That is certainly how other aspects of creation came into being.

Either way, no matter how, I think we agree that God did it, and He used Mary as a willing participant in this divine act!

 

[lionroar0]

I'm sorry, but I can't answer such a contradiction.

Either Jesus was Fully Human and Fully GOd since the moment of his conception or he wasn't.

NO MAry is not the Mother Of Jesus Devine nature but of his Human NAture, since she was human and Jesus is also human. He got his human nature from his mother.

Mary carried Jesus who was both fully human and divine with in herself. She gave birth to Jesus who is also God.

She did not create Jesus. She gave birth to Jesus. Just like one parent can't create a child neither did MAry create Jesus.

Jesus is God therefore she gave birth to Jesus who is fully human and fully God.

 

[Oblio]

Mary is not the mother of the Word, but she is the mother of Jesus.

Uh ....Jesus is the Word of God.

And saying that Jesus has one essence is monophysitism, or if you are niggling miaphysitism especially if you claim that his Divinity supercedes His humanity

 

[thereselittleflower]

Although I can appreciate what you are trying to say, I can only take your word for being representative of how you feel. It would be rather silly to think that you are speaking on behald of 1.4 billion people.

Why? The Cathlic and Orthodox Church have never changed the defintion of Theotokos . .

Those are the 1.4 billion people I am referring to . . and all are obigated to believe what the Church teaches it means . . they are not free to come up with their own interpretation . .

I think you can be safe in accepting that the Church is teaching the same thing to all 1.4 billion people . .

I am not expressing a PERSONAL opinion or belief ainesis . . but the explicit teaching of the Church . .

So this is not a discussion of what "I" understand vs what "you" understand . .

This is a discussion about what the Church clearly teaches vs what "you" understand.

There is a significant difference . .

I am sorry, but I can not oblige you in turning this into a discussion of our respective "personal" beliefs.

Additionally, large numbers are really not that significant. Afterall, broad is the way that leads to destruction and many will follow that path. That is not a comment about the 1.4 billion people you refer to (whomever they are), but it is simply an illustration of how massive numbers do not equate to Truth.

I am not the one who first brought up the idea of numbers . . I was responding to your assertion of "some" . .

Since 4 billion are not Christian in this world, yes, broad is the way .

I am referring specifically to those Churches which have always held to the same definition and understanding of the word Theotokos the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches.

I think you have chosen the wrong example to show how massive number do not equate to truth . . the massive numbers are on the other side of the rest of this earth's population . .

The council created the word "mother"?

The council officialy decreed the word "THEOTOKOS" the English translation is "Mother of God" ..

(Theotokos was in use much earlier than that, so when I said created earlier, it would have been more accurate to say "decreed" . .but I was not speaking of the Enlgish word "mother" . . that is part of the translation of Thetokos).

How do you see these "protesters" defining the word "mother"?

However they want to . . like you have.

I think it would be much less confusing if you focused on the original word, Theotokos instead of the English translation .. it might help you understand where we are coming from better.

Actually, "we" don't. The mother of my dog Cooney is referred to as Cooney's mother. But to each his own.

Vets refer to them as b*tches - didn't you know that is where the slang term "b*tch" comes from? I assumed you did so did not explain, please accept my apologies . . because of its slang usage, I understand why people do not use it to refer to the female dog at home . . but it is the appropriate way to refer to one who has had pups . . .

I haven't seen anyone making that claim here tlf. Perhaps they have, but Ihaven't seen it. My only comments were about the title mother of God, and no, I do not agree with that.

Thanks But there is that concern that it could move in that direction, am I right?

Which has actually been my point all along. I do not think that the title in question fully depicts that.

I understand your position . . but here is a similar situation that might be easy to relate to especially in relation to this thread . .


If I say I worship Mary you would hear one thing . . that I am giving Mary worship that is due God alone . .

If the word "worship" can only mean what you understand it to me, then you would be right and I would be committing idol worship . .

But if I say I worship Mary and that word "worship" can have additional usages which you are unaware of, legitimate usages, that would not ascribe to Mary a position of divinity, but that would denote reverence properly due man without impinging on the worship due God alone, then I would be perfectly in my right to use it in that way, even if you didn't understand, and it would never mean what you think it means. .

It is a matter of perspective . .

When one group uses a word in a certain way, when speaking of their usage of that word, it is inappropriate to insist that their understanding of that word is in error . .

No . . it is a culturally determined thing . . not a linguistially determined thing ..

Linguistics are dependent on culture much more than culture on linguistics . .

So, the phrase .. when in Rome, do as the Romans do . .

Meaning, in this context, that it is not proper to take another's use of a word out of its cultural context for them and evaluate it from your own cultural perspective .. Culture changes a lot of things, and lots of misunderstandings occur between cultures over issues just like this . .

Perhaps you are taking things just a little too personally. Why does someone disagreeing with this title mean in your mind that they are finding fault with any church? I understand what the title is meant to imply, and I agree with that implication. I do not agree that this title accurately reflects that intention on its face.

I was over broad in my comment . . many do, and that is what I should have said. Another comment you made later though does tie into this idea.

Some people may very well believe that. I do not, so I cannot answer for them. I do believe that Catholic veneration of Mary is beyond what is Scriptural, but I do not think that error is due to the title under discussion.

It helps to be clearer on where we are coming from, so thank you for sharing this.

Then you may want to get used to having problems, because there will always be someone somewhere who doesn't see things the way you do. If we understood that, and further appreciated that such disagreement is not always personal, it may help to temper responses.

Perhaps it would help to not assume what someone is used to and is not used to as well .


Peace to all!

 

[Ainesis]

Uh ....Jesus is the Word of God.

And saying that Jesus has one essence is monophysitism, or if you are niggling miaphysitism especially if you claim that his Divinity supercedes His humanity

No, Jesus is the Word incarnate or the Word made flesh.

Please read carefully, I never said that Jesus has one nature, but two. Further, His divinity supercedes his humanity not in terms of His essence or make-up, but because it is this element that makes Him the only begotten Son.

 

[Ainesis]

I'm sorry, but I can't answer such a contradiction.

Okay.

 

[Oblio]

I need to get my heresies straight (there are so many).

Monophysitism (from the Greek monos meaning 'one' and physis meaning 'nature') is the christological
position that Christ has only one nature, as opposed to the Chalcedonian position which holds that Christ has two natures, one divine and one human. There are three major doctrines that can be called monophysite

Eutychianism holds that the human nature of Christ was essentially obliterated by the Divine, "dissolved like a drop of honey in the sea".

Apollinarism holds that Christ had a human body and human "living principle" but that the Divine Logos had taken the place of the nous, or "thinking principle", analogous but not identical to what might be called a mind in the present day.

Miaphysitism, the "monophysite" Christology of extant "monophysite" Churches, holds that in Christ the divine and human nature become one nature, the natures being united without separation, without confusion, and without change.

 

[Oblio]

No, Jesus is the Word incarnate or the Word made flesh.

Jesus is eternally begotten of the Father before all ages (c.f. Nicean/Constantinopolitan Creed).

While He was temporally Incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, He is also the eternal Word of God.

 

[thereselittleflower]

This has been discussed before, but I guess furthering relations only goes so far, or maybe it is primarily one-sided?

And inflammatory remarks like this are helpful??


Peace to all!

 

[Ainesis]

I think you can be safe in accepting that the Church is teaching the same thing to all 1.4 billion people . .

Based on what? If there are Catholic priests who condone pedophilia and are teaching that this is okay, then should I assume that the rest of the 1.4 billion people are likewise taught?

That is an extreme example and does not pertain to this topic, but I think it shows how odd your statement seems to me (merely my perception). In spite of the the Catholic church may dictate, that does not mean that this is what is being taught to all members. Either way, I can accept that this is the official position of your church.

I am not the one who first brought up the idea of numbers . . I was responding to your assertion of "some" . .

You are offended by the word "some"? Is it your contention that no one anywhere uses the term mother of God inappropriately? Otherwise, how can you dispute the word some? Did I say "all"? Did I say "you"? Did I say "Catholics"?

Thanks But there is that concern that it could move in that direction, am I right?

No. In terms of catholicism, I think they already have (IMO). However, even so, I do not think that is based on the use of this title.

But if I say I worship Mary and that word "worship" can have additional usages which you are unaware of, legitimate usages, that would not ascribe to Mary a position of divinity, but that would denote reverence properly due man without impinging on the worship due God alone, then I would be perfectly in my right to use it in that way, even if you didn't understand, and it would never mean what you think it means. .

It is a matter of perspective . .

Not really. It is a matter of truth and what is representative of God's Truth.

 

[Ainesis]

Jesus is eternally begotten of the Father before all ages (c.f. Nicean/Constantinopolitan Creed).

While He was temporally Incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, He is also the eternal Word of God.

But He has not been eternally enfleshed.