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Role of Mary

Role of Mary

  • She is the Mother of God

  • She was only a mere woman


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Lynn73

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Shelb5 said:
The origin of Christianity comes from the Catholic Church- it is the Church that Christ built. Protestantism broke from the visible authority. If any is baptized, they are baptized into Christ's Church. There is only one Church, one body, one baptism, one faith, one Lord Jesus. How can any one who calls themselves Christian not be part of Christ’s Church if they are baptized? What other Church is there to be baptized into? He founded one Church, not many.
I know there is only one church. Catholics and non-Catholics don't agree on what that is. Jesus added me to His church when I accepted Him as Savior. I'm not separated from His church though I'm not nor ever have been Catholic. Of course, you believe different. That isn't going to change. We'll know in eternity what the truth is. If the Catholic church is the one true church Christ established it's awful strange that a reading of the Bible doesn't give everyone the desire to join the Catholic church. :scratch:
 
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ps139

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Lynn73 said:
If the Catholic church is the one true church Christ established it's awful strange that a reading of the Bible doesn't give everyone the desire to join the Catholic church. :scratch:
For me it does....
but its then equally strange how people can read the Bible and come up with 2 or 3 or 10 conflicting theories about X Y and Z.
 
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If the Catholic church is the one true church Christ established it's awful strange that a reading of the Bible doesn't give everyone the desire to join the Catholic church. :scratch:
*chimes in*

Hehe, that's exactly what I did!

Of course, I understand that not everybody is like that. I do believe, though (key word here, "believe") that Scripture study complimented with patristics (Church Fathers) and history will make the case for Catholicism much more viable.

Just my two cents. And now, back to your regularly scheduled Mary debate.
 
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Ainesis

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thereselittleflower said:
Ainesis . . what Catholic priests are teaching that pedophilia is OK?
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_24_38/ai_86044660

Just so that it is clear, regardless of my views on the title mother of God, I have not made any derrogatory or unsubstantiated remarks.

My point here, as I indicated in my initial post on the matter, is that clearly such teaching as reported in this article is not consistent with Catholic church teachings. However, it does illustrate that the church's official position on a matter is not by any means a barometer that the official intent is what is actually communicated to or even understood by the members. In fact, I know several catholics who do not comprehend the Christological intent behind the title under question.

So, while I stand by my decision not to continue going round and round about what the mother of God title says, means, or implies, I must address the accusations you have made about my comments being unfounded. Again, in the hopes of being heard - and more importantly understood - I offered that example to show how it is possible for individual church teachings to not correctly reflect the official position of the church.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Lollard said:
I don't know sister, but I tell you you are fighting a fight that has been going on for centuries.

Perhaps everyone should take a day away from this thread and pray about what all has been said.

TLF you are well versed as usual, but I would suggest that not everyone who is an NC is anti catholic, and does not carry the papal hating banner. I know you didn't say that, but I read more than once a refernce to worshipping saints, etc... that was not part of the conversation. Ainess is a pretty cool lady, i don't think she has an axe to grind with your church.
Thanks Lollard . . I know you mean well . . And while I have found in general for this to be true, for we have had some interesting discussions up until I was forced offline for a while. And while I would generally agree she is not anti-catholic (and the comments regarding anti-catholicism were not directed her way, but were meant to be general statements), I do find comments such as these to be very anti-catholic:
Based on what? If there are Catholic priests who condone pedophilia and are teaching that this is okay, then should I assume that the rest of the 1.4 billion people are likewise taught
If someone is going to post inflammatory remarks like that, I hope they expect to be called on it.

What I realized in this thread is there is a major communication issue

If someone does not recognize the cultural and linguistic issues surround the proper understanidng of words, titles, idioms, etc . . how can we even hope to understand one another.

There is a huge cultural difference between Catholics and Protestasnts and NC's (just for you Lollard ;) ) . . .. there can be no meeitng of the minds if one side fails to understand the importance of such issues . . and prehaps this is a big reason why we are all still divided today . . :(


Peace in Him!
 
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Oblio

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you will see that none of the described heresies matches what I have said.

Actually, if your read your comment and compare the bold heresies with what you said, you can see a correlation. One for saying that Christ has one essence (that being God-man, BTW this is what the Coptics believe) and the other that His Divinity supercedes his humanity. Granted, you later clarified what you meant by superceding, for which I am grateful, but that was after my comment. My error was in the specific term that I gave for the heresies that I saw in your comment.
 
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Ainesis

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Oblio said:
Actually, if your read your comment and compare the bold heresies with what you said, you can see a correlation. One for saying that Christ has one essence (that being God-man, BTW this is what the Coptics believe) and the other that His Divinity supercedes his humanity. Granted, you later clarified what you meant by superceding, for which I am grateful, but that was after my comment. My error was in the specific term that I gave for the heresies that I saw in your comment.
Thanks Oblio! Also, please note that I have also always acknowledged that Jesus has two natures. They together form they essence of who He is, but by no means are the two merged into one nature. So, I have to assume that you may be misreading/misunderstanding what I have said as I see no correlation with what you have cited.

God Bless!
 
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thereselittleflower

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Ainesis said:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_24_38/ai_86044660

Just so that it is clear, regardless of my views on the title mother of God, I have not made any derrogatory or unsubstantiated remarks.
Hi Ainesis . .

I have to disgree . .

You remarks:
Based on what? If there are Catholic priests who condone pedophilia and are teaching that this is okay, then should I assume that the rest of the 1.4 billion people are likewise taught?
Were inflammatory.

We were taling about Church DOCTRINE . . not the private personal opions of derranged a priest . .

Since we were talking about DOCTRINE and you brought this up, I asked you to post proof that such was ever taught by a priest FROM THE PULPIT

The document above provides no such proof . . public lectures are not Doctrial teaching . .that is the only reference to something resembling "teaching" I could find.

We all know about the Church sex abuse scandal . . that is well know, and this particular priest is also well known , ,

He did not do what you claimed in your statement above when taken in the context of this thread . . DOCTRINAL TEACHING . . the Doctrine of Christ being fuly man and fully God and how the title THEOTOKOS upholds that definition . .

He did not teach AS DOCTRINE his views . . That does not excues him, neither does it make the harm he did any less serious . .

What it DOES mean is that as an example to illustrate your point in our discussion, it doesn't even apply . .

And one priest does not the Catholic Church make . . (even if that one priest can cause so much grief for so many souls and the Church itself.) He needs our prayers, as well as all those whom he has hurt.


It is evident to me that you are on one wave length and I on another ..

That you would not realize the offensiveness of that post, and the inflammatory nature especialy since it did not address doctrine at all, surprises me greatly .

I did not expect such a comment from you Ainesis . .

I simply don't know what to say to you further . .


I will further address your points, and then will simply leave off dicussing thsi further with you.

My point here, as I indicated in my initial post on the matter, is that clearly such teaching as reported in this article is not consistent with Catholic church teachings.


There were no DOCTRINAL teachings .. he did not pass off his personal views as Church doctrine . .

That is the KEY Difference which I am asking you to understand.

So no . . there was no such DOCTRINAL teaching reported in that articel.

Theotokos is a doctrinal statement, and so itself is a doctrinal teaching. and its definition is doctrinal through and through.

However, it does illustrate that the church's official position on a matter is not by any means a barometer that the official intent is what is actually communicated to or even understood by the members.


No, it does not illustrate this.

In fact, I know several catholics who do not comprehend the Christological intent behind the title under question.
I can't speak to that for I don't know them, and I can't evaluage theri knowledge . .

But poor catechesis is different than false doctrine being taught about the Theotokos . .

Poor catechesis usually results in poor formation due to lack of education .. not because of false doctrinal teaching.


So, while I stand by my decision not to continue going round and round about what the mother of God title says, means, or implies, I must address the accusations you have made about my comments being unfounded. Again, in the hopes of being heard - and more importantly understood - I offered that example to show how it is possible for individual church teachings to not correctly reflect the official position of the church.
AGain, I hope you will sit back and review what I have said in response to your assertions ..

The last sentence above is key, and I am highlighting the key part:



I offered that example to show how it is possible for individual church teachings to not correctly reflect the official position of the church.




There was no "indibidual Church teachings" mentioned in the article you provided a link to above .



There is an individual who had deep seated problems, who the article does not say every "taught" his personal views as "CHURCH TEACHINGS"


It seems that it is hard for people to distinguish between the individual and the Church, especially if that individual is a priest; and if he teaches on a personal level something at odds with the official teaching of the Church that he is somehow representing CHURCH teaching, rather than his own personal views . .

And then to use such an example to extrapolate out that the position you are holding to must be true, that Official Church teaching means very little to nothing on a local level . .

And that simply is false.


Froim the inside looking out, I see how strong the teaching of the Church is, and how strong this PARTICULAR teaching regarding the Theotokos is and how this particular teaching has remained unchanged through the centuries . it is a CORE teaching of the Church . . that and the Trinity.

To compare the solidity of these CORE teachings with the hoirible personal lectures of a priest is to do a grave injustice to our faith . . such a comparison is gravely offensive.


I am sorry if you do not understand this . . but regardless of your claims to the contrary . ,, it was offensive.


If you wish to believe that the Church has little control over the dissemination of its CORE doctrines to the faithful, and the actions of this prist are somehow proof of that, then I can't help you . . but when false inferrences are made, I will stand up and say "hey, wait a minute . .that isn't true!" . .


I have never once said you are not entitled to your own opinion regarding the Theotokos . .


I have challanged your view point, tried to give you different way so of looking at it . .


The same Early Church Fathers who defined the Christological doctrines were not then wrong when they defined the Theotokos and what that title meant . .
Theotokos is nothing more than a Christological statement that says Jesus was both fully human and fully God.

It is up to us today to either accept it or reject it . .


Peace to all!
 
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thereselittleflower

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Lynn73 said:
I know there is only one church. Catholics and non-Catholics don't agree on what that is. Jesus added me to His church when I accepted Him as Savior. I'm not separated from His church though I'm not nor ever have been Catholic. Of course, you believe different.
No Lynn, actually we don't believe differently than you do . .

We believe that though you are not formally joined to the Catholic Church, and so do not participate in the Graces received from the sacraments of Confirmation, Reconcilliation and the Eucharist, that God knows His own and all are joined to His Church . .

That isn't going to change. We'll know in eternity what the truth is. If the Catholic church is the one true church Christ established it's awful strange that a reading of the Bible doesn't give everyone the desire to join the Catholic church. :scratch:
Well, I guess that's because God didn't give us just the bible . He gave us His Church, the pillar and foundation of truth . . ;) Perhaps that is because the bible is not all there is! :)


Peace in Him!
 
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thereselittleflower

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Archbishop 10-K said:
*chimes in*

Hehe, that's exactly what I did!

Of course, I understand that not everybody is like that. I do believe, though (key word here, "believe") that Scripture study complimented with patristics (Church Fathers) and history will make the case for Catholicism much more viable.

Just my two cents. And now, back to your regularly scheduled Mary debate.
I was thinking of someone else . .Scott Hahn was like that too! :) You are in good company!


Peace in Him!
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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I was raised a Baptist, I knew nothing of Church history, knew nothing of the ecumenical councils, knew nothing of heresy. I tried in vain to discern what the Bible said for myself... I failed miserably at all my "self - teaching"... It can not be done this way...

All of this I put down to ignorance... the fact was "I" didn't know...

After all this time I'm still absolutly certain that "I don't know"... so I came to only one conclusion.

There is a Church, and it knows more than any one person will ever know.

I will trust the "Holy Catholic and Apostolic Chruch". It is the institution that Christ left for us to follow.

If I am wrong "so be it" Christ forgives...

I resolve therefore to have no "personal opinion", but will follow the Church...

Through the prayers of the Theotokos, o savior save us....

Forgive me...
 
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Ainesis

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Although you do go on above tlf, your comments are not accurate. My comments to you were not about doctrine as you now claim, but in direct response to your comment below.

tlf said:
I think you can be safe in accepting that the Church is teaching the same thing to all 1.4 billion people . .


My response to you was questioning how you could be so certain that the church was teaching the same thing to all 1.4 billion people as you claim. For clearly the church is not universally teaching the type of filth propogated by that person. Whether one priest makes the Catholic church or not, he is a representative of that church and speaks with its authority. It is clear in that article that he had incorporated these beliefs into his ministry, even as witnessed by his parishoners. Never once did I say that was the doctrinal position and neither did your point address church doctrine, but teaching. I spoke of offiicial doctrine later only to help clarify my comments and acknowledge that in no way was I asserting this was an official position of your church.

Nonetheless, I do find these conversations with you to be quite circular and non-productive, so I would agree there is a communication gap. While I won't surmise on the cause of that, I am content to leave it there.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Archbishop 10-K said:
*chimes in*

Hehe, that's exactly what I did!

Of course, I understand that not everybody is like that. I do believe, though (key word here, "believe") that Scripture study complimented with patristics (Church Fathers) and history will make the case for Catholicism much more viable.

Just my two cents. And now, back to your regularly scheduled Mary debate.
I was thinking of someone else . .Scott Hahn was like that too! :) You are in good company!


Peace in Him!
 
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thereselittleflower

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Ainesis said:
Although you do go on above tlf, your comments are not accurate. My comments to you were not about doctrine as you now claim, but in direct response to your comment below.


My comment WAS about doctrine. Your comments were not .. I guess we have nothing more to discuss then. I am sorry to hear this . .


Peace to all!
 
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thereselittleflower

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Ainesis .. just a thought . . this might help avoid the type of confusion we had in this thread in the future . .

When you talk about "church teaching" to a Catholic .. you are talking about doctrine .. for that is what "church teaching" means to a Catholic . .

If you want to talk about an individual's teaching that is not intended to be taken as doctrine, the right phrase to use is "personal teaching" ..


I think that is at the heart of our "you were talking about doctrine, I wasn't" misconmmunication.


Peace to all!
 
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Svt4Him

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St. Amadeus said:
God the Son, was born in Judea, in a lowely manger, among animals and filth, wrapped in rags. I mean, meditate on that. He entered the world in such lowely conditions, and not on accident. It was for a purpose.
Not to muddy things anymore, but where does it say He was born in a manger, and which animals were around? ;)
 
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