Role of Mary

[Axion]

Which makes mary the Mother of the God-man Jesus, not the mother of God.

So, are you now saying that Jesus is not God?

 

[katherine2001]

A mother is mother to all of her child--not just the parts that the child gets from her. Also, she was not just a "vessel" that God used to bring His son into the world. She contributed Christ's humanity and His flesh to Him. I imagine that He looked just like the people in her family. Also, chances are if they'd been able to do DNA tests back then, Christ's mitochondrial DNA (which is passed solely from a mother to her children) would have been a perfect match with hers.

No mother creates her children. Only God can create human beings. By your arguement, no child would have a mother because she doesn't create her children. However, a mother is mother to all that her child is. If Christ was divine at the time of His conception in the flesh and His birth, then she was mother to that as well. The only way she wouldn't be would be if His divinity nature was given to Him later (such as some argued happened at His baptism).

Yes, Jesus has two distinct natures, but you cannot separate them. They are both part of who Jesus is (as He still has both natures).

 

[Axion]

Oh right. And who exactly does it say will be the greatest?

Mary is blessed. But anyone else? Well, let's see what Jesus said:

3“Blessed are the poor in spirit,​

For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.​

4Blessed are those who mourn,​

For they shall be comforted.​

5Blessed are the meek,​

For they shall inherit the earth.​

6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,​

For they shall be filled.​

7Blessed are the merciful,​

For they shall obtain mercy.​

8Blessed are the pure in heart,​

For they shall see God.​

9Blessed are the peacemakers,​

For they shall be called sons of God.​

10Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,​

For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

And Oblio, assumption really is the lowest form of knowledge, but feel free to assume all you like.

The problem with your argument is that in the New Testament two different Greek words are normally translated into English as Blessed.

In: Blessed are the peacemakers
The word Blessed is the Greek Makarios, (Strong's Number: 3107) which means happy, or blest.

However in Blessed are you among women, as applied to Mary:
The word Blessed is the Greek Eulogeo, (Strong's Number: 2127) which means to praise, celebrate with praises, and pronounce God's blessing. It is the root of the English word Eulogise.

Two different words with different meanings.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Which makes mary the Mother of the God-man Jesus, not the mother of God.

Which is the same thing . . for inherent in this name is the fact that Mary gave birth to a man who was God . . she was human . .so what was born of her was human . . to say she was a mother means she gave birth to a human being, so it is redundant to say God-"man" . . that is already understood in the term "Mother" . .

But what is not understood in the the term "Mother" alone, or "Mother of Jesus" is that the human she bore into the world was also God . . so, she is called "Mother of God"


This is an ancient title that is Christologic . . it defends Christ's full humanity and full divinity . .

The ancients were very much in favor of conciseness rather than using lots of words . . so they chose the title "Mother of God" because it was CONCISE . .

The word Mother automatically made full and complete reference to Jesus' humanity, so no other word was needed to convey this, and "of God" made full and complete reference to His divinity . .

A very concise and meaning packed title . .


And so we have kept it for all these centuries turning into millenia . .


It means the same thing today that it meant almost 2000 years ago . .


Peace in Him!

 

[Oblio]

Mother : \Moth"er\, a. Received by birth or from ancestors; native, natural; as, mother language; also acting the part, or having the place of a mother; producing others; originating. That which has produced or nurtured anything; source of birth or origin; generatrix.

Websters says that a mother originates or produces but the word of God says:

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
(Jer 1:5 KJVA)

Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
(Isa 44:2 KJVA)


Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
(Isa 44:24 KJVA)

And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
(Isa 49:5 KJVA)

So I ask, who creates us, our mothers, or God ??

 

[visionary]

If Mary never gave birth to Jesus...would she be blessed? would she be a co-worker with Christ in Heaven? God has chosen through the centuries different people from all walks of life to be prophets, priests, kings, and to be called to what ever task the Lord has need for, and the people of God answer and say "as you wish, Lord." Does that make them Holy, does that make them any more special in the physical state? When the Lord blesses someone, they have an anointing, they have a special experience with God, and they are truly, for lack of a better word, blessed. That does not give them any more closeness than the next blessed person of God. In fact all of God's children are blessed with the presence of God, with the work that God has set before them, with the honor that God has bestowed upon them.

Jesus had to reprimand Mary twice that we know of, once for not understanding the work that Jesus was commission be His Father when Jesus was twelve years old. Then again, Jesus reprimanded Mary for asking Him to fix the problem at the wedding.
Mary was not the swiftest person on the block when it came to understanding the role that Jesus was to perform while on earth.

Luke 2:19 But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart

She really missed the boat on a lot of things spiritual. If she was such a good spiritual leader, why did she not play a bigger role in the spiritual upbringing of all her children.

Matthew 13:54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? 55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

She may have been blessed to have Jesus for a son, but she is as faliable as a lot of people in her day and is in our day.

 

[Ainesis]

So, are you now saying that Jesus is not God?

Are you saying that Jesus is not a man?

 

[Ainesis]

Yes, Jesus has two distinct natures, but you cannot separate them. They are both part of who Jesus is (as He still has both natures).

My point precisely.

And yet, when people say that mary is the "mother of God" they are doing just that. They are separating His two natures and attributing to her the motherhood of that one aspect of His nature instead of the whole.

 

[Ainesis]

The problem with your argument is that in the New Testament two different Greek words are normally translated into English as Blessed.

In: Blessed are the peacemakers
The word Blessed is the Greek Makarios, (Strong's Number: 3107) which means happy, or blest.

However in Blessed are you among women, as applied to Mary:
The word Blessed is the Greek Eulogeo, (Strong's Number: 2127) which means to praise, celebrate with praises, and pronounce God's blessing. It is the root of the English word Eulogise.

Two different words with different meanings.

And yet various Scriptures show that all of the faithful are "blessed" Eulogeo. Not only Mary.

 

[Ainesis]

Which is the same thing . . for inherent in this name is the fact that Mary gave birth to a man who was God . . she was human . .so what was born of her was human . . to say she was a mother means she gave birth to a human being, so it is redundant to say God-"man" . . that is already understood in the term "Mother" . .

It is hardly redundent. No more than God bearing the title of "Father" inherently means that He is a man, for He is not.

This is an ancient title that is Christologic . . it defends Christ's full humanity and full divinity . .

I would say that this is not Christ-centered at all, but Mary-centered.

The ancients were very much in favor of conciseness rather than using lots of words . . so they chose the title "Mother of God" because it was CONCISE . .

The word Mother automatically made full and complete reference to Jesus' humanity, so no other word was needed to convey this, and "of God" made full and complete reference to His divinity . .

A very concise and meaning packed title . .


And so we have kept it for all these centuries turning into millenia . .


It means the same thing today that it meant almost 2000 years ago . .

Which does not make it any more accurate.

 

[Oblio]

No more than God bearing the title of "Father" inherently means that He is a man, for He is not.

This is not correct. The term Father in this case is not speaking to His origin or His essence.

 

[Oblio]

Theotokos = (Bearer or) Mother of God

Affirms the foillowing

Mother: Since she is His mother, and she is human, He must be human.
of
God: He who is human and born of her is God

 

[Reader Nilus]

The Ever-Blessed Virgin Mary, is just a normal woman who heard the call and acted, she followed the Lord, and remained sinless. She is the Mother of God, as Jesus her child was and is God in the 2nd Person. So the poll, both answers are correct.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Ainesis]

This is not correct. The term Father in this case is not speaking to His origin or His essence.

And likewise "Mother" does not speak to Jesus' origin or essence.

TLF asserted that the term "Mother" already conveyed Jesus' humanity "inherently." I stated that this is not the case because the title of "Mother" or "Father" is not inherrently limited to mankind.

 

[Credo]

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

God became flesh through a woman. When a woman becomes pregnant, she is a mother. God was in fleshed through Mary. Mary gave birth to Jesus, the Word. Jesus is God - Mary is His mother. Mary is the Mother of God.

 

[Oblio]

And likewise "Mother" does not speak to Jesus' origin or essence.

Essence Yes
Origin No

 

[thereselittleflower]

If Mary never gave birth to Jesus...would she be blessed? would she be a co-worker with Christ in Heaven? God has chosen through the centuries different people from all walks of life to be prophets, priests, kings, and to be called to what ever task the Lord has need for, and the people of God answer and say "as you wish, Lord." Does that make them Holy, does that make them any more special in the physical state? When the Lord blesses someone, they have an anointing, they have a special experience with God, and they are truly, for lack of a better word, blessed. That does not give them any more closeness than the next blessed person of God. In fact all of God's children are blessed with the presence of God, with the work that God has set before them, with the honor that God has bestowed upon them.

The bible does not agree with much of what you have said above .

Jesus had to reprimand Mary twice that we know of, once for not understanding the work that Jesus was commission be His Father when Jesus was twelve years old. Then again, Jesus reprimanded Mary for asking Him to fix the problem at the wedding.

Children do not reprimand their parents . .

Parents reprimand their children . .

If Jesus had reprimanded His mother, he would have been guilty of breaking the commandment of God to HONOR THY PARENTS . .

And then, He would have been guilty if sin, and chrsitianity is a sham .

But we know this is not true so we know he NEVER reprimanded his mother . .

He HONORED her ALWAYS and more perfectly than any human alive has ever honored their mother.

Mary was not the swiftest person on the block when it came to understanding the role that Jesus was to perform while on earth.

What a slam to the mother of Our Lord . . I am sure He appreciates it . .

You are speaking about things you do not understand.

Lord have mercy . .

She really missed the boat on a lot of things spiritual. If she was such a good spiritual leader, why did she not play a bigger role in the spiritual upbringing of all her children.

What "all her children"? ? ?

If you want to discuss the Mother of our Lord, I am going to ask you politely to do so with respect . .

That you have no understanding of her character or her holiness, or anything the bible says about her is very much in evidence by your words . .

You are speaking about things you do not understand.

Lord have mercy . .

She may have been blessed to have Jesus for a son, but she is as faliable as a lot of people in her day and is in our day.

You are speaking about things you do not understand.

Lord have mercy . .



Do you believe the scriptures?

Do you do as they command?


Do you join in with all generations and call her blessed?


It is evident you are simply attacking the beliefs of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches about Mary, (that last jab about infallibility gave it away) and not only do you not have a very good grasp of what the scritpures have to say about her, but you do not understand what the Church teaches about her either. . .

Perhaps you should take time to study and ask questions before jumping in with both feet like this .

Both the Orthodox and Catholic posters here at CF are happy to answer questions, but not too happy to sit by while people make thinly veiled attacks against their faith like this ..

It reminds me of something that happened to a friend . . she went to a fundamentalists funeral and she was wearing a necklace she wears, it had a picture of Mary on it . . the pastor never took his eyes off her and spent the whole sermon attacking Catholic beliefs . . at a FUNERAL .. pretty uncalled for . .


Seems like what you are doing here too .


Peace

 

[SumTinWong]

The Ever-Blessed Virgin Mary, is just a normal woman who heard the call and acted, she followed the Lord, and remained sinless. She is the Mother of God, as Jesus her child was and is God in the 2nd Person. So the poll, both answers are correct.
Jeff the Finn

Dude you had me goin there for a second. I was reading...

The Ever-Blessed Virgin Mary (nods head)
is just a normal woman (nods twice)
who heard the call and acted (nods three times)
she followed the Lord (shrugs, possibly as she was there some of the time anyway)
and remained sinless... Oops that is where it falls apart. If she were indeed normal she wouldn't be sinless(I know that does not jive with Orthodoxy). I know we will disagree there so instead I will move on to where we do agree first.

As for the rest I believe she is the Theotokos(sp?), or in english the mother of God. I can't see any other way of looking at it. From a technical stand point, if Jesus is God, and Mary did give birth to Jesus (who is God incarnate on this planet), then it can be said that Mary gave birth to God. Any female on this planet who gives birth to a child is considered that childs mother. So Mary is in fact the mother of Jesus/God.

I think what bothers many of us though are the misconceptions/teachings/dogmas that Mary must have been cleansed/purified/removed from the stain of original sin, as if God could not be present in her womb otherwise. Well that theory seems to fall short when we read the scripture about how John was filled with the Holy Spirit when he was in his mothers womb. If God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all the same, and God could inhabit a child in the womb in the form of the Holy Spirit, then why couldn't He do the same in the womb of his mother? (God in fact inhabited a bush for a time being as well) Anyway the point being is for me I do not deny her title as Theotokos, as it in all technicalities is true. What I deny are the extras that have been added after the fact.

Have a great day

 

[thereselittleflower]

My point precisely.

And yet, when people say that mary is the "mother of God" they are doing just that. They are separating His two natures and attributing to her the motherhood of that one aspect of His nature instead of the whole.

Ainesis

You know better than that . . it has been explained to you many times before . .

We do not do with this title what you claim . .

People who call Mary the Mother of God do so knowing they are speaking of Jesus' 2 natures, not just one . .


It is this continued and purposeful misrepresentation of what this title means TO THOSE WHO USE IT that is the problem . .

"when people say . . "


The people who say "Mother of God" know exactly what they mean by it . . .

It is sad that you see fit to continue to perpetuate a myth that causes rifts instead of healing .



Peace to all!

 

[Ainesis]

Ainesis

You know better than that . . it has been explained to you many times before . .

Pardon me tlf, but although I may understand why some believe this title to be appropriate, it certainly does not mean that I must agree. What I "do know better than" is to accept the beliefs of others that I do not find substantiated in Scripture. So, while we may have different approaches here, please do not assume that my failure to agree with you here means I am not aware of your position on the matter.

We do not do with this title what you claim . . People who call Mary the Mother of God do so knowing they are speaking of Jesus' 2 natures, not just one . .

Jesus is both fully God and man. To recognize both aspects of Jesus' inseparable nature is to recognize mary as the mother of the God-man Jesus.

The title of "mother" in no way assumes the attributes of humanity are inherent for even dogs have mothers. Conversely, if mary had been divine, she still would have been His mother.

It is this continued and purposeful misrepresentation of what this title means TO THOSE WHO USE IT that is the problem . .

If that is not what you intend when you use the phrase, then great. It would appear then that we agree on what the basis of truth is in terms of who Jesus is. What is all of the fuss about?

You are free to refer to mary as you choose. It still does not change the fact that both natures of Jesus are not relayed in that title, even though I understand that you may use it with that implicit understanding. I understand what you say you mean, I am looking merely at what it says.

As for this causing a rift, I suppose that is only possible if the title means more to you than the meaning it presumes to convey.